RE: PH takes on the CBT

[BlackPrince]

Krikkit said:

All are true - he bought a Monster 1200 straight after his test, then a Tuono.

Born-again bikers have to pose too right? I don't really understand non and new-bikers' attraction to the Italian brands, as if somehow a Panigale that costs 20% more than a Blade is the same as a 488GTB that cost 1000% more than a Civic Type-R, but anyway

[bogie]

BlackPrince said:

Krikkit said:

All are true - he bought a Monster 1200 straight after his test, then a Tuono.

Born-again bikers have to pose too right? I don't really understand non and new-bikers' attraction to the Italian brands, as if somehow a Panigale that costs 20% more than a Blade is the same as a 488GTB that cost 1000% more than a Civic Type-R, but anyway

It is amazing what Ducati have managed to do with their brand.....way different to their 80s and 90s reputation ...good marketing I guess.

[Arsecati]

Walter Sobchak said:

How much are the track days there?, always fancied giving Mondello park a go!.
Finally got my first track day on the V4 next month at Brands GP so looking forward to that, I did have one last summer but put my back out really badly a week beforehand so couldn’t go! .

A full day on the International is €160 if booked in advance. The National is €130, but you really want to be on the International on a big bike (it's twice the distance!). It's a very technical track - a lot of corners and off-cambers, but a few good fast sections too (you'll have your TC light lit up like a xmas tree with your knee-down around Parabolica at well over 100mph!!! Luverly!!!) Mondellopark.ie is the main website for Mondello, and if you are over for a weekend, some fantastic roads up the Wicklow Mountains too, where it is our religion to break for breakfast at a very biker friendly restaurant called 'The Wicklow Heather' in Laragh every Sunday morning. Definitely NOT the typical 'biker hangout' that comes to mind (they have first editions of Yeats and Wilde in their 'library'), but then again, the carpark is usually full of Dukes and Beemer GS's, so not really that surprising after all! Haha!!

[Mr Tidy]

bogie said:

It is amazing what Ducati have managed to do with their brand.....way different to their 80s and 90s reputation ...good marketing I guess.

Probably because they got exemptions in most classes of racing!

They got to run bigger engines with their V-twins than anyone using a straight 4 - why? If they couldn't keep up they should have made something that was on the pace, maybe a 4-pot - although they have finally got around to that.

Genuine question, but does how they ride really justify their price premium?

I'd much rather have a 2-Stroke.

[Arsecati]

Mr Tidy said:

Probably because they got exemptions in most classes of racing!

They got to run bigger engines with their V-twins than anyone using a straight 4 - why? If they couldn't keep up they should have made something that was on the pace, maybe a 4-pot - although they have finally got around to that.

Genuine question, but does how they ride really justify their price premium?

I'd much rather have a 2-Stroke.

It's just simply engineering: a v-twin generates it's power in a completely different way, so the extra cc is to compensate for it, just like you have a different cc limit for a triple. You said you'd prefer a 2-stroke....... so are you saying THEY should also be allowed to run with a 1000cc limit??? (Kryste, would love to see it though!).

And I have 3 Ducati's at the minute (I also have 2 Hondas, 2 Yamahas, 2 Triumphs and several others, so I really don't give a monkeys about the 'religious Ducati fandom'!!), and no, I don't believe the superbikes justify their price premium from a performance perspective, especially over a similar level RSV4 or S1000RR (their cheaper bikes though - scramblers, etc., seem surprisingly well worth it for the money.) But there is just something about them....... those damned Italians just know how to design a bike, and there simply is nothing else like a big twin to ride. I do hate the image, and purposely keep my Panigale S filthy so it annoys other Ducati owners, but I've owned Dukes since 2001 with my first 996 and I actually ride mine: you will never see one of mine sat outside a coffeeshop, with me sitting in my pristine Dainese's sipping a frappalattacappachino or whatever (I don't even own Daineses', and the leathers I do own, are pretty filthy too!!! Hahaha!!).

[Zakalwe]

Perhaps the others should have developed a V twin to compete with if the advantages were so great

[Fastdruid]

Zakalwe said:

Perhaps the others should have developed a V twin to compete with if the advantages were so great

You mean like Honda did?

[Arsecati]

Zakalwe said:

Perhaps the others should have developed a V twin to compete with if the advantages were so great

What advantages? Do you actually follow WSB or BSB? Ya may wanna do a wee bit of research first there buddy to see how well V-Twin's have done over the last few years, and then do a of further research to see how many cylinders there in the current WSB and BSB lineups: Ducatis are 4 cylinder now - same 1000cc as everyone else.

[Zakalwe]

The claim made (not by me) was that Ducati were successful due to the exemptions given to them as a V twin producer while everyone else had the superior per-cc I4. If the advantage was so great, there was nothing stopping anyone else producing a big cc V2

[Rawwr]

Thread about CBT develops into conversation about racing regs. Impressive.

[Arsecati]

Zakalwe said:

The claim made (not by me) was that Ducati were successful due to the exemptions given to them as a V twin producer while everyone else had the superior per-cc I4. If the advantage was so great, there was nothing stopping anyone else producing a big cc V2

Ok, so you decided not to bother looking up how well Ducati's V-Twin has being doing then?

A Ducati V-Twin hasn't won a World Superbike Championship since 2011 - EVERY Championship winning bike since then has been a 4 cylinder. Ducati's current entry in the 2019 championship is now ALSO a 4 cylinder...... so why would anyone else make a big cc V-Twin, when they DON'T have any advantage at all, and in fact, they've only won ONE World Championship in the last 10 years???

This is a dreary, tired, ill researched, cliched claptrap, blubbered out by mostly Japanese bike riders, who generally just couldn't afford to buy a Ducati, so slobbered out some rubbish to try demean the brand out of jealousy. I may have 3 Ducatis myself, but I started out racing on a Honda 400 in the lightweights before moving to a Kawasaki ZX6R in 600 Supersports before then racing the last 6 or 7 years (up until last year) on a Suzuki GSXR1000 in the Superbikes. This year, I'm moving back to Supersports on a Triumph 675 (I'm not competitive - I'm old, just do it for fun while I can still get my leg over!!!), so I literally have ZERO bias on the matter. In fact as I also still have a collection of other Japanese, Italian and British bikes...... it's pretty much safe to say, that I'm not defending Ducati out of some fawning love for the brand - I just rather prefer to deal with the facts.

[Fastdruid]

Zakalwe said:

The claim made (not by me) was that Ducati were successful due to the exemptions given to them as a V twin producer while everyone else had the superior per-cc I4. If the advantage was so great, there was nothing stopping anyone else producing a big cc V2

Which Honda did.

They campaigned with the V4 from the 80's up until the mid 90's when they were uncompetitive against the litre V2 Ducati's. So they brought out their own V2 and won. At which point the rules were changed again to allow 4 cylinder litre bikes so that everyone else could play as well and it killed the 750 class.

What I find interesting is that while you may think that in MotoGP when there is little restriction other than capacity everyone has gone with 4 cylinders. With the exception of Honda's V5 of course. In reality though as they were restricted to 4 cylinders and a maximum bore size it makes it hard to make a competitive V-twin as it would have to be very long stroke.

The MotoGP limit is 81mm per cylinder and for example an SV650 is 81mm. A Ducati 996 is 98mm (x 66mm stroke), the Honda SP2 is 100mm (x 63.6mm stroke). A MotoGP v2 would have to be massively under-square at 81mm x 97mm.

Edited by Fastdruid on Friday 10th May 12:18

[Zakalwe]

I’m not arguing any of these points with any of you, just countering the claim that Ducati were given unfair advantages by those who create the rules.

[quote]
Probably because they got exemptions in most classes of racing!

They got to run bigger engines with their V-twins

[/quote]


Any perceived advantages are available to any team if they choose to develop the engine for it. But hey, I’m a Ducati fan so I’m probably biased

Edited by Zakalwe on Friday 10th May 13:52

[NNH]

BritVsRedneck said:

Good read, looking forward to the next update!

I remember my dad passing his test in Blackpool in the early 90s, I was about 10 and I'd ride pillion anywhere I could with him, up to Kirkby Lonsdale and Glasson Dock.
I was keen to get a bike as soon as I could, but it didn't happen.

I eventually took my bike test over here in the US at 33, and have been riding for 2 years and love it.
I like to read everyone's impression of riding in the UK, also I'm not familiar what the cost and complexity of the test is like.

In the US, it was a 3 day course, all parking lot, with a 10 minute skills test at the end. Total cost was $80!
I've learnt more and more over the last 2 years doing a mixture of off road and on road (tarmac and unpaved roads) on a dual sport.

I've done both fairly recently. I did the UK CBT in February 2017 for about GBP150 at the age of 44, which was a morning of pootling round the tennis court, and an afternoon on the road (I got a compliment for spotting a driver in a Zafira who was clearly going to wipe me out on a mini-roundabout if I didn't give up my right of way). It was roughly the same difficulty as the MSF course.

Then I did the full UK licence in June-July 2018 for about GBP700 all in all. The UK theory test is a bit trickier than the California one, but both are much harder than the California driving theory test. The Mod 1 on faster tennis court was interesting, and I actually enjoyed my Mod 2 in the hills near Epsom.

I did my California MSF in December 2018, on the basis that it was about the same cost as doing a one-hour test at the DMV, and I might actually learn something new. It was hilariously, terrifyingly easy. It's astonishing that a day of 15mph manoeuvres and an evening lecture will qualify you to ride a 400kg Harley or a 200hp H2. I'm really pleased I decided to get my test out of the way before I left Britain, as I feel it was a much more meaningful level of instruction.

[bogie]

Its interesting to hear of the differences between US and UK training from someone thats done both. Many complain about the training here in UK and how it should be somehow "easier" to get a bike licence. UK motorcycle accident stats have improved vastly over the last 40 years whereas in most states in USA there has been little improvement. In some US states you are "free" to get a license in hours then ride whatever you want without a helmet. Strangely enough motorcycles accident statistics have changed little since the 60s.

In the UK riders are forced to do much more training, wear helmets, learn about protective gear and there are many low cost post test training schemes available. We joke about it on here, with the regular discussions on which training option is better, are kevlar jeans good enough, which brand of leathers are best etc but the fact that UK riders actually take all these things seriously is a good thing and has to contribute to us having some of the lowest motorcycle accident stats in the world.

The fact is that there has never been a safer time in history to be riding a motorcycle in the UK.

Lets enjoy it whilst we can