Never had post test training?
Discussion
OverSteery said:
How many people here, who consider themselves at least mildly enthusiastic Bikers, have never had any bike training after passing their "licence passing" test? Why not?
Lack of time, done loads in the car already so bored with the concept, and have a problem with authority. That doesn't mean I've done f
k all. I'm committed to learning and respect experienced opinion, but I'd rather do it at my own pace in my own direction. I did the bikesafe evening (couldn't do the day I was too drunk from the night before so missed it), I've read books, have done trackdays, off road introductions, watch you tube clips, and I try and be very aware when I'm riding of when I've fked up and try and learn from it.I'm not a fast rider for sure, but I'd be surprised if anyone considered my riding sub-par. I've actually had the police, rather hilariously, compliment my riding after they followed me and booked me for speeding... I mean the fact I talked myself out of a court appearance on that basis, counts as a positive police assessment right?
I'm happy with my riding at the moment actually, quite chilled and feel safe and so more relaxed these days as a result. I don't feel I need an independent confirmation of that at this point.
black-k1 said:
I think it's disappointing that there are so many people who have not had advanced training. Forget helmets, forget back protectors, forget leathers, it's the biggest safety "add on" you can have.
The other worry are those who believe that track days relate to training. While they are good for learning just what your bike can do, they do nothing for road positioning and lines. In fact, worse than that, they promote exactly the wrong lines for road riding. Track riding as an addition to advanced training has a place, but it is definitely not an alternative.
Absolutely. I'm getting a bit fed up with the way some people ride where I live (on a popular rideout route into Mid-Wales), overtaking into corners, on corners, even a blind bend recently, and going out onto the centre line where the road ahead is obscured. On the final point, a lot of minor roads have LGVs and tractors on them, the former especially often end up way over the centre line. I tend to reduce speed and hug the hedgeline, at the expense of improved forward visibility having recently had a near coming together with a lorry on a narrow road section just outside my village.The other worry are those who believe that track days relate to training. While they are good for learning just what your bike can do, they do nothing for road positioning and lines. In fact, worse than that, they promote exactly the wrong lines for road riding. Track riding as an addition to advanced training has a place, but it is definitely not an alternative.
dern said:
The thing with the IAM is that anyone who'd interested needs to understand the end goal before doing it. If you read their system, agree with it and want to get to the point where you can pass their assessment then you should go for it. If not then the whole thing will be a battle because that's the end goal they'll be trying to get you to. If you push back all the time against the system then it'll be a crap and frustrating experience because they will constantly try and pull you in line with that system. They won't compromise with you because that's not how their system works.
So it’s not about being safer or better, it’s about learning a “system” and passing a test?And an unwillingness to “compromise” is just stupid, outdated stubbornness that perpetuates the bearded wannabe cop image.
Any decent training should recognise where the rider is on the range of skill levels, identify areas for improve and then deliver appropriate tuition.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 20th August 12:05
Crossflow Kid said:
So it’s not about being safer or better, it’s about learning a “system” and passing a test?
And an unwillingness to “compromise” is just stupid, outdated stubbornness that perpetuates the bearded wannabe cop image.
Any decent training should recognise where the rider is on the range of skill levels, identify areas for improve and then deliver appropriate tuition.
Of course it's about being better and safer but within their system. If you took a job as a police ride I'd imagine that you'd be learning their system, this is the same approach.And an unwillingness to “compromise” is just stupid, outdated stubbornness that perpetuates the bearded wannabe cop image.
Any decent training should recognise where the rider is on the range of skill levels, identify areas for improve and then deliver appropriate tuition.
Crossflow Kid said:
So it’s not about being safer or better, it’s about learning a “system” and passing a test?
And an unwillingness to “compromise” is just stupid, outdated stubbornness that perpetuates the bearded wannabe cop image.
Any decent training should recognise where the rider is on the range of skill levels, identify areas for improve and then deliver appropriate tuition.
It is about being safer and better. They're just providing a system to use to make you safer. It's a tool, not a solution. They're testing you know how to use the tool. It's up to you to then use that tool to be safer. And an unwillingness to “compromise” is just stupid, outdated stubbornness that perpetuates the bearded wannabe cop image.
Any decent training should recognise where the rider is on the range of skill levels, identify areas for improve and then deliver appropriate tuition.
Edited by Crossflow Kid on Tuesday 20th August 12:05
For those that feel the the IAM is all arrogant beards and cardigans - so what? Listen to what they say. Understand why they say it then choose to accept or ignore it. There is no right or wrong way for advanced riding. Every single person has a slightly different view and as long as each can justify that view, that view is valid. The more you can understand each of those views the more informed your decision on what works for you is.
Crossflow Kid said:
So it’s not about being safer or better, it’s about learning a “system” and passing a test?
And an unwillingness to “compromise” is just stupid, outdated stubbornness that perpetuates the bearded wannabe cop image.
Any decent training should recognise where the rider is on the range of skill levels, identify areas for improve and then deliver appropriate tuition.
Yes, but no but...And an unwillingness to “compromise” is just stupid, outdated stubbornness that perpetuates the bearded wannabe cop image.
Any decent training should recognise where the rider is on the range of skill levels, identify areas for improve and then deliver appropriate tuition.
There is a 'system' which is based primarily on the rules/guidelines in the police Motorcycle Roadcraft book, but slightly simplified and broken down into manageable chunks. If you follow 'the system' you will most probably be riding safer; and at least in your own time (where safe) might even be going faster in some conditions
So first off you have to agree (or disagree) that the rules/guidelines in the police Motorcycle Roadcraft book make sense. If they don't (and I can't see why they shouldn't) then the principles of most on-road training won't make sense. But if you do agree with the police safe riding principles then the IAM 'system' gets you riding to that level/style/standard relatively quickly and painlessly. I'm relatively new to this IAM Observing business, but my first 'associate' [non-patched/prospect
] has improved immeasurably over 8 sessions - and sooo much faster too in certain conditions. However, the final test is not handled by an IAM Observer but by a serving bike cop (at least in our area, and every one I'm aware of) and these guys are good! It's unlikely you'll pass just pitching up on the day without knowing what's in Motorcycle Roadcraft and putting it in to practice - so either do the IAM course or read the book and do everything it proposes; but the former will be simpler and quicker.
The cops who do the test cannot be Observers, and the idea is - like any test - the tester cannot cover aspect in the time available and so some things simply go un-tested. But the Observer tries to get the associate to a level to pass the whatever the tester (cop) chooses to cover on the actual test so covers a far wider agenda.
All the IAM Observers are volunteers and there are some good ones, and not so good ones. Some will match your style of learning, and while they should adapt, some may be less than adaptable. I do not know any Observers with beards or who ride GSs, but clearly there are some. I'm not aware of any who want to be cops, and for my sins while I choose to reject the whole high-viz milarky others may not; but I've never seen a 'Polite' vest (in our area). Most I've met are decent guys (I'm sure there are some girls out there but I haven't met any) who are bikers and want to help others improve their riding. But (and not in my section I hasten to add) I have met some IAM folks who are a
holes! But they'd be aholes whether they were in the IAM or not, and if one was allocated as an observer and you didn't get one you can ask for another.Re using track days or track specific training they'll certainly improve bike control, but won't do much for safe riding on the road. But at least when you hit (or get hit by) whateveritis you didn't notice/anticipate you'll know you were on the perfect racing line and in full control
In defence of the IAM, I did it in the car years ago. It really was useful. Some of it is objectively just good practice. You can call a system or whatever, but what they drill into you is just a sensible order in which to make the checks, and explain what those checks are. That's basically it.
Personally I found, like every drill, done sufficiently you no longer think about your actions you just naturally do it, and that makes everything about driving/riding easier as you've freed up some mental space. You react less, you anticipate and plan more. It just sort of clicks, you shed bad habits and pick up good ones, and you get better.
I got assessed by a retired senior TrafPol as well. Say what you want but these guys really can drive, his criticisms were valid, and it was a hell of a pat on the back to have him pass me. Was similarly assessed years later by an independent at work and scored highly as a result of driving in the way I was taught.
Never did same on the bike, I doubt I will, but can understand why others would.
Personally I found, like every drill, done sufficiently you no longer think about your actions you just naturally do it, and that makes everything about driving/riding easier as you've freed up some mental space. You react less, you anticipate and plan more. It just sort of clicks, you shed bad habits and pick up good ones, and you get better.
I got assessed by a retired senior TrafPol as well. Say what you want but these guys really can drive, his criticisms were valid, and it was a hell of a pat on the back to have him pass me. Was similarly assessed years later by an independent at work and scored highly as a result of driving in the way I was taught.
Never did same on the bike, I doubt I will, but can understand why others would.
black-k1 said:
For those that feel the the IAM is all arrogant beards and cardigans - so what?
We can all say that:you also said:
I think it's disappointing that there are so many people who have not had advanced training
The other worry are those who believe that track days relate to training.
So what? Who the fThe other worry are those who believe that track days relate to training.
k are you? You sound a bit like an arrogant beard. Maybe you're not but how can we tell?This seems to have polarised into two very disparate groups
1. I passed / am doing / have done the IAM stuff and as such am so much better than the rest of you
2. I’ve not done anything, because I don’t need to / want to, as I’m better than the rest of you
To add some balance. I tried to do some training, but decided I couldn’t be arsed, then self taught myself a load of trackday stuff and took a bit of training on that and am now racing. As such I’m better than the lot of you, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
1. I passed / am doing / have done the IAM stuff and as such am so much better than the rest of you
2. I’ve not done anything, because I don’t need to / want to, as I’m better than the rest of you
To add some balance. I tried to do some training, but decided I couldn’t be arsed, then self taught myself a load of trackday stuff and took a bit of training on that and am now racing. As such I’m better than the lot of you, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
Lindun said:
This seems to have polarised into two very disparate groups
1. I passed / am doing / have done the IAM stuff and as such am so much better than the rest of you
2. I’ve not done anything, because I don’t need to / want to, as I’m better than the rest of you
To add some balance. I tried to do some training, but decided I couldn’t be arsed, then self taught myself a load of trackday stuff and took a bit of training on that and am now racing. As such I’m better than the lot of you, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
There is the other option that most of the folks I know in the IAM subscribe to is I may have passed but I'm still learning, and some way to go to match some of the cop riders out there. If that wasn't the case the local groups wouldn't keep getting guest speakers in etc. And even with the associates there's always room to discuss their actions and learn from that too. As with most things the more you learn the more you realise there's much more to learn - Dunning–Kruger effect and all that...1. I passed / am doing / have done the IAM stuff and as such am so much better than the rest of you
2. I’ve not done anything, because I don’t need to / want to, as I’m better than the rest of you
To add some balance. I tried to do some training, but decided I couldn’t be arsed, then self taught myself a load of trackday stuff and took a bit of training on that and am now racing. As such I’m better than the lot of you, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
Lindun said:
Has a surgeon been in here and carried out some sense of humour / personality bypasses?
The last two answers, both from IAM aficionados definitely match the stereotype and sum up why I will never go anywhere near them.
The last two answers, both from IAM aficionados definitely match the stereotype and sum up why I will never go anywhere near them.
I’m struggling to see any post that’s remotely humourous. What have I missed?How about:
Bloke walks in to a doctors surgery and says ‘Doctor, doctor I think I’m a moth’.
Doctor says ‘it’s not a doctor you need, it’s a psychiatrist’.
Bloke says ‘I know, but your light was on’.
There. Now we have some humour on the thread
tvrolet said:
Lindun said:
Has a surgeon been in here and carried out some sense of humour / personality bypasses?
The last two answers, both from IAM aficionados definitely match the stereotype and sum up why I will never go anywhere near them.
The last two answers, both from IAM aficionados definitely match the stereotype and sum up why I will never go anywhere near them.
I’m struggling to see any post that’s remotely humourous. What have I missed?k knowsdern said:
tvrolet said:
Lindun said:
Has a surgeon been in here and carried out some sense of humour / personality bypasses?
The last two answers, both from IAM aficionados definitely match the stereotype and sum up why I will never go anywhere near them.
The last two answers, both from IAM aficionados definitely match the stereotype and sum up why I will never go anywhere near them.
I’m struggling to see any post that’s remotely humourous. What have I missed?k knowsread ,y spot again, it’s quite clearly as tongue in cheek as is possible. And ending it with “stick that in your pipe and smoke it” should be pretty effing obvious, even to the dullest of dullards.
So if this IAM “system” is so good why isn’t it used as the basis for entry level training?
Now I know the answer will be “...because it continues from where basic instruction stops...” but I’m afraid the overriding atmosphere I’ve experienced is one of “Everything you’ve learnt previously is wrong”.
And that simply cannot be the case otherwise no one would ever pass their test and/or there’d be bikes in hedgerows all over the place.
After my day with a police biker, guess what? Turns out I was already riding to around 75-80% of the “system”
Who’d a thought it? Not the IAM, that’s for sure. Absolutely blew their minds judging by all the head shaking and tutting.
Now I know the answer will be “...because it continues from where basic instruction stops...” but I’m afraid the overriding atmosphere I’ve experienced is one of “Everything you’ve learnt previously is wrong”.
And that simply cannot be the case otherwise no one would ever pass their test and/or there’d be bikes in hedgerows all over the place.
After my day with a police biker, guess what? Turns out I was already riding to around 75-80% of the “system”
Who’d a thought it? Not the IAM, that’s for sure. Absolutely blew their minds judging by all the head shaking and tutting.
Lindun said:
QED
read ,y spot again, it’s quite clearly as tongue in cheek as is possible. And ending it with “stick that in your pipe and smoke it” should be pretty effing obvious, even to the dullest of dullards.
Has someone had the jam from your doughnut you argumentative tosser? You should have said you were awesome read ,y spot again, it’s quite clearly as tongue in cheek as is possible. And ending it with “stick that in your pipe and smoke it” should be pretty effing obvious, even to the dullest of dullards.
I've never done any training, apart from when I did half a bikesafe day I but felt it was a bit pedestrian and geared towards the novice rider, I also read roadcraft once, I do try and be as safe as possible and minimise risk by using the correct lines and maximising visibility on the road, I have ridden with couple of police class one riders (for pleasure, off duty) and their road positioning was no different to mine, and they couldn't keep up
I have noticed the older I get the more cautious I am around junctions and on blind bends with limited visibility, and it has paid off as I have been pulled out on a couple of times recently and been able to stop easily.Riding on the road and track are two very different things, I'm reasonably quick on the road but slow on track, I don't care, they are very different disciplines.
dern said:
Lindun said:
QED
read ,y spot again, it’s quite clearly as tongue in cheek as is possible. And ending it with “stick that in your pipe and smoke it” should be pretty effing obvious, even to the dullest of dullards.
I'm sorry but you really don't know me so fread ,y spot again, it’s quite clearly as tongue in cheek as is possible. And ending it with “stick that in your pipe and smoke it” should be pretty effing obvious, even to the dullest of dullards.
k off you thick .Lol.
Sad little man
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