Never had post test training?

[Pothole]

Just checking, OP. Has this gone the way you expected?

[black-k1]

Pothole said:

black-k1 said:

For those that feel the the IAM is all arrogant beards and cardigans - so what?

We can all say that:

you also said:

I think it's disappointing that there are so many people who have not had advanced training
The other worry are those who believe that track days relate to training.

So what? Who the fk are you? You sound a bit like an arrogant beard. Maybe you're not but how can we tell?

And you are 100% entitled to your opinion. (as am I). My point is real ignorance is choosing to not listen to other opinions and views, especially those that may disagree or be at odds with your own. Every single one of us can learn, every day on every subject. It's not about who is delivering the message but the message they are delivering!

[Davel]

I wasn't convinced that I was as good a rider as I'd hoped to be and, wanting to do Blood Bikes, I took the Rospa Course.

To be honest, I learnt lots of useful stuff and my bad points were highlighted and worked on.

I really enjoyed it and the team were really great.

I've since quit Blood Bikes but I'd recommend Rospa to anyone really.

No matter how 'brilliant' a rider we might like to think that we are, we can all learn more.

[dern]

Davel said:

I wasn't convinced that I was as good a rider as I'd hoped to be and, wanting to do Blood Bikes, I took the Rospa Course.

To be honest, I learnt lots of useful stuff and my bad points were highlighted and worked on.

I really enjoyed it and the team were really great.

I've since quit Blood Bikes but I'd recommend Rospa to anyone really.

No matter how 'brilliant' a rider we might like to think that we are, we can all learn more.

What was your experience like with the blood bikes? It was the main reason I did the IAM course but it obviously looks like a hell of a commitment (in a good cause, obviously).

[Pothole]

black-k1 said:

And you are 100% entitled to your opinion. (as am I). My point is real ignorance is choosing to not listen to other opinions and views, especially those that may disagree or be at odds with your own. Every single one of us can learn, every day on every subject. It's not about who is delivering the message but the message they are delivering!

Blimey. I understood exactly what you were getting at. I was trying to get across that the way you put it might not have been the best way to achieve the result you appeared to want. Coming across as arrogant to address people feeling that a group of people is arrogant can't possibly help, can it? Often it actually is about who is delivering the message, or at least how, which is often closely bound to who. Viz. any number of threads about those delivering Speed Awareness Courses and the like.

Personally, I'd be looking for friendly, encouraging advice, not haughty, holier than thou criticism were I to sign up for any of these courses. If that's not on offer, I doubt I'd fully engage, so the arrogant beard will be frustrated in his desire to make me a "better" (subjective) rider. That would appear to defeat the object. Any good teacher has the ability to tailor their approach to suit their student(s). Those who can't tend to be less successful.

[black-k1]

Pothole said:

Blimey. I understood exactly what you were getting at. I was trying to get across that the way you put it might not have been the best way to achieve the result you appeared to want. Coming across as arrogant to address people feeling that a group of people is arrogant can't possibly help, can it? Often it actually is about who is delivering the message, or at least how, which is often closely bound to who. Viz. any number of threads about those delivering Speed Awareness Courses and the like.

Personally, I'd be looking for friendly, encouraging advice, not haughty, holier than thou criticism were I to sign up for any of these courses. If that's not on offer, I doubt I'd fully engage, so the arrogant beard will be frustrated in his desire to make me a "better" (subjective) rider. That would appear to defeat the object. Any good teacher has the ability to tailor their approach to suit their student(s). Those who can't tend to be less successful.

If my post came across as arrogant then that wasn't how it was written (re-read it in a '60's "Hippy" voice! - )

I know that dealing with with "arrogant beards" in all walks of life can be ... difficult but, I try not to stop it letting a specific message get through. There's nothing wrong with, receiving the message then asking the arrogant tt if he/she knows that they come across as an arrogant tt!

[OverSteery]

Pothole said:

Just checking, OP. Has this gone the way you expected?

OP here!

I had vague expectation, but I can't say I am hugely surprised.

Not wanting to hide my agenda, I am an IAM enthusiast and help run my local group. I don't have a beard.

The IAM has an image/stereotype problem. As with most stereotypes, the truth is more complex, but often it's not without some foundation. IAM observers are unpaid volunteers. The quality is variable and some are indeed arrogant, condescending A*rseholes. In my experience they are the minority.

Most people here who have done some IAM (or similar) training feel it's improved their riding and safety. I've never spoken to anybody who completed their training who didn't feel they benefited.

Those who have tried and rejected will probably fall into one of two camps:
1) they suffered under poor observers/trainers (I have been out with a serving policeman, who I would really liked to have punched in his smug face - but I did learn from him)
2) they are think they know better than the System that has been developed over many many years by many groups including the police and can't take being told that they aren't riding gods.

To those who don't like "the system", I recommend they try it, get the hang of it. Then decide whether to use it or not. Most who understand it and appreciate it's flexibility tend to keep using it. Most who criticise, it don't understand it properly.

I observe 10s of riders each year. Most of them enjoy it and ride safer afterwards. I hear all their challenges and disagreements and I listen to see what I can learn. I try not be be a insufferable smug git, but I guess I'm not the one to say. Most activity come back for more.

Do I regard myself as better than the average ride? Too F*cking right I do. I've actively undertake training every year from a variety of source - professional and amateur and constantly self criticise and look to learn. I am better because I work harder than most to be better.
I see the dangers that riders put themselves in all the time and wince. I see those who join IAM become safer riders and usually quicker too.

I check the bikes of riders who believe that checking tyre pressures are the responsibility of the dealer to do annually... "is 10 psi too low then?"

World champions in all areas still have coaches. I am amazed at the arrogance of those who don't believe they can learn from training, when they may pay for their mistakes with their lives.

[Dr Jekyll]

OverSteery said:

Most people here who have done some IAM (or similar) training feel it's improved their riding and safety. I've never spoken to anybody who completed their training who didn't feel they benefited.

Those who have tried and rejected will probably fall into one of two camps:
1) they suffered under poor observers/trainers (I have been out with a serving policeman, who I would really liked to have punched in his smug face - but I did learn from him)
2) they are think they know better than the System that has been developed over many many years by many groups including the police and can't take being told that they aren't riding gods.

I didn't complete my training but still benefitted.

I stopped because it was clear I couldn't progress any further.
I agree with the system but:

Observers on more than one occasion. 'You could have gone round that bend much faster'.
Me 'What if there is a tractor parked round the bend?'
Observer 'What if there isn't?

Also, every monthly meeting featured 'announcements' that were largely a list of members who had crashed in the last month, very often single vehicle cornering accidents. Leading me to believe they weren't riding gods either.

So I went for some professional instruction with Rapid Training instead, they felt I was cautious on corners as well, but didn't regard this as a bad thing.

[OverSteery]

Dr Jekyll said:

I didn't complete my training but still benefitted.

I stopped because it was clear I couldn't progress any further.
I agree with the system but:

Observers on more than one occasion. 'You could have gone round that bend much faster'.
Me 'What if there is a tractor parked round the bend?'
Observer 'What if there isn't?

Also, every monthly meeting featured 'announcements' that were largely a list of members who had crashed in the last month, very often single vehicle cornering accidents. Leading me to believe they weren't riding gods either.

So I went for some professional instruction with Rapid Training instead, they felt I was cautious on corners as well, but didn't regard this as a bad thing.

I've done a couple of days with Rapid and thought them excellent. As is so often, excellence isn't cheap.

Whilst I am not so arrogant so judge an observer's comments taken out of context. Oh hang on - yes I am That is not what an observer should be saying. you are the one who will end up in hospital if you hit a tractor. Ride your own ride and do not be "egged-on" to go faster than you are comfortable.

As has been stated earlier - you must be able to stop in the distance you can see to be safe (whilst remaining on your side of the road). So you should be able to stop if there is a tractor there. Commenting there may not be tractor is bizarre - does he expect you to bet your life on that?

It's true that too much focus is put on speed by some observers.

[Lindun]

OP.

This thread has done little to convince me of any benefit of the IAM stuff, not that it would have managed to anyway. However, dern has 100% confirmed my views on the IAM and even your comments above show that you’re picking an anecdote and painting it as if all riders are exactly the same unless they do some training.

Maybe you should consider that some people are possibly better than you would ever give them credit for. Just for clarity, I’m not saying I’m one of them.

[Hungrymc]

OverSteery said:

I check the bikes of riders who believe that checking tyre pressures are the responsibility of the dealer to do annually... "is 10 psi too low then?"

I guess that is a pertinent point - in this example, you're dealing with an idiot who obviously generally has no interest in educating themselves, but instead they turn up at the IAM to be spoon fed / short cut to competence?

I work hard on my riding but I haven't enjoyed my limited exposure to IAM (in a car). I do educate myself, criticse myself and look to improve.

I do also occasionally run about 10psi (maybe a couple more) ….. on my green lane bike.

[Davel]

I chose Rospa as a mate, who did IAM a couple of years earlier, felt that his one to one course wasn't brilliant - because he couldn't get on with the instructor.

Mind you he is a moody git.

He did Rospa too at the same time as me.

Regarding Blood Bikes, I signed up to carry emergency stuff as and when needed and I enjoyed it - but I found that I was doing more and more stuff and carrying non-emergency stuff, mostly on my own bike. The more that you do, the more that they ask of you.

Daytime runs were fine but 3 a.m. in the morning with torrential downpours and strong winds weren't so much fun. I didn't really enjoy city riding either.

I also began to feel that we were sometimes resented by NHS staff, as we were seen as a potential threat to their jobs.

I volunteered to carry emergency stuff when no one else was available - and not to be a glorified free courier service.

Blood Bikers get my utmost respect but it just got a bit too much for my liking.

[OverSteery]

Lindun said:

OP.

This thread has done little to convince me of any benefit of the IAM stuff, not that it would have managed to anyway. However, dern has 100% confirmed my views on the IAM and even your comments above show that you’re picking an anecdote and painting it as if all riders are exactly the same unless they do some training.

Maybe you should consider that some people are possibly better than you would ever give them credit for. Just for clarity, I’m not saying I’m one of them.

Fine - I didn't start the thread to convince anybody - I was interested.

I will consider that. My initial thought was all (no matter how good) who would benefit from training. That doesn't suggest they were poor before, nor do I think that is the case. Clearly some will be, some are very good. If I gave the impression I think all riders at the same, then that was not my intention, nor my view.

I shouldn't have mentioned Mr 10psi.. he wasn't typical and doesn't reflect what the IAM does, although too many observers do bang on about bike checks...

Edited by OverSteery on Wednesday 21st August 14:56

[Pothole]

I probably wouldn't be welcome with the plug in my rear tyre, then...[/canofworms]

[black-k1]

Lindun said:

OP.

This thread has done little to convince me of any benefit of the IAM stuff, not that it would have managed to anyway. However, dern has 100% confirmed my views on the IAM and even your comments above show that you’re picking an anecdote and painting it as if all riders are exactly the same unless they do some training.

Maybe you should consider that some people are possibly better than you would ever give them credit for. Just for clarity, I’m not saying I’m one of them.

The question would be what would you need/like to convince you of any benefit of the IAM stuff? Pretty much everyone who has said they've done some advanced training have said the found some benefit.

[Donbot]

OverSteery said:

I am amazed at the arrogance of those who don't believe they can learn from training, when they may pay for their mistakes with their lives.

I think this is the main thing people would take issue with. You shouldn't view people who don't take further training as arrogant (this can often come across as what intructors believe). Feel free to encourage people to join, but saying that you will chuck yourself at the scenery if you don't will just annoy people.

When riding you won't be able to tell who has done further training, so the dangerous riding you see might be done by people who are already part of your group.

[Lindun]

black-k1 said:

The question would be what would you need/like to convince you of any benefit of the IAM stuff? Pretty much everyone who has said they've done some advanced training have said the found some benefit.

I’m open to training as a general rule in most aspects of my life. I’m open to learning and developing as a rider. However, I’m not open to being taught a rigid syllabus. This may have a lot to do with my own personal learning style. Equally though, I believe that those who train others need to be able to earn their respect and everyone I’ve come across who has an IAM background has been virtually insufferable with their attitude. This may not reflect all of them, but it certainly reflects all of those that I’ve met over the past decade or so that I’ve been riding.

Having picked someone up for their use of an anecdote to paint this as the norm, I’m about to recount one of my experiences with the caveat that I know this isn’t all of them, but is quite damning nonetheless. I was at a trackday a few years ago and a couple of instructors / assessors or whatever they’re called (they’d announced their presence quite loudly, as had their hi-viz) we’re watching the riders from pitwall and being very critical of the riders and saying how they’d do it and how they don’t do trackdays, as they were probably too quick for any group other than Fast and wouldn’t want to upset the riders in that group by passing them. After asking them a few questions it was clear that neither had been anywhere near a track, or had they any idea of racecraft. Yet they still announced themselves to be beyond reproach.

I flipped the discussion and asked how they’d cope with me blitzing them on the road and other comments that were clearly their comments but reversed and was dismissed out of hand, despite me at least having ridden on the road for 10 years at that point

The word arrogance has been used a lot in this thread and that’s how I find them.

[anonymous-user]

Lindun said:

Maybe you should consider that some people are possibly better than you would ever give them credit for. Just for clarity, I’m not saying I’m one of them.

100% this. My experience wasn’t so much an observed, assessed ride. It was more a case of ride for twenty minutes, stop for a condescending well-rehearsed speech and then being left for dead mostly because the IAM tool was on a bike with literally double the CCs of what I was on at the time.
I had the opposite of the tractor conversation where I’d positioned myself progressively and cautiously out to the white line and occasionally over it to the offside in order to give myself a clear line of sight through a bend.
“What if there was a car coming?”
“There wasn’t. It was the clear line of sight that gave me that advantage”
Nope. All wrong.

[3nduro]

Pothole said:

I probably wouldn't be welcome with the plug in my rear tyre, then...[/canofworms]

LAM (the london IAM) actually practice plugging tyres and its up to you the rider to decide on what you do with it .... tbh I carried on and wore the tyre out ... :-)

[Pothole]

3nduro said:

Pothole said:

I probably wouldn't be welcome with the plug in my rear tyre, then...[/canofworms]

LAM (the london IAM) actually practice plugging tyres and its up to you the rider to decide on what you do with it .... tbh I carried on and wore the tyre out ... :-)

Wow an outbreak of logic and common sense...that's my plan, too.