Nortons current state
Discussion
Mortgage_tom said:
I've been saying for years that Norton wasn't a bike-building business, it was a loan and grant-generating business.We never could work out how they were generating the turnover and income they claimed when they were building at best a couple of bikes a week.
Mortgage_tom said:
Blimey...That's a good read.Can't wait for the full 'series'
boyse7en said:
I've been saying for years that Norton wasn't a bike-building business, it was a loan and grant-generating business.
We never could work out how they were generating the turnover and income they claimed when they were building at best a couple of bikes a week.
I always suspected that the planned race circuit in south Wales was a similar scam.We never could work out how they were generating the turnover and income they claimed when they were building at best a couple of bikes a week.
I always thought it was odd that some unheard-of guy who sold fireworks had enough to fund a bike manufacturer. So was interesting from the point of view of how it got started in the early days.
But the figures of only around 800 bikes sold ever, only one a week was very shocking! Is that right? Turnover around £1 million a year? (Accounts on companies house show nearly £7 million?)
Accounts make intresting reading, company debt owed by Garners other companies written off.
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/0671862...
But the figures of only around 800 bikes sold ever, only one a week was very shocking! Is that right? Turnover around £1 million a year? (Accounts on companies house show nearly £7 million?)
Accounts make intresting reading, company debt owed by Garners other companies written off.
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/0671862...
Amazing how this can happen, I always thought it was a scam and something was up,
How a company can build a couple of bikes a week at a cost of £20k average and run a place like donington hall, staff, rates, lighting etc etc, then pay VAT costs and do the advertising shows etc etc
And not be in deficit was always beyond me.
I never new about the pensions thing until a couple of months ago, obviously that and grants helped it stay afloat so long.
Robbing
How a company can build a couple of bikes a week at a cost of £20k average and run a place like donington hall, staff, rates, lighting etc etc, then pay VAT costs and do the advertising shows etc etc
And not be in deficit was always beyond me.
I never new about the pensions thing until a couple of months ago, obviously that and grants helped it stay afloat so long.
Robbing
"He believes that turnover is profit, which it is if you don’t ever pay anyone. I can remember us getting into a heated conversation about business years ago, I was trying to highlight the need to keep good accounts and file them on time. Stuart said to me “I will take the Inland Revenue on anytime, because they are a bunch of muppets!” "
Amazing reading. He needs to go to prison and be bankrupted, but I fear he will have a large chunk of portable wealth hidden somewhere. Its always the same with idiots who think they are more intelligent than the combined resources of HM's Inland Revenue!
Amazing reading. He needs to go to prison and be bankrupted, but I fear he will have a large chunk of portable wealth hidden somewhere. Its always the same with idiots who think they are more intelligent than the combined resources of HM's Inland Revenue!
A993LAD said:
I always suspected that the planned race circuit in south Wales was a similar scam.
Yes, as soon as we saw the first press release on that plan it shouted "Monorail!"It was absolutely no surprise that the entire plan collapsed after several million pounds had been provided to the project.
Mortgage_tom said:
But the figures of only around 800 bikes sold ever, only one a week was very shocking! Is that right? Turnover around £1 million a year? (Accounts on companies house show nearly £7 million?)
No official sales figures were ever released, but i know that in the UK only 123 Nortons were registered in 2018, and an even more paltry 57 in 2017.Only got figures for Jan-September for 2019, but there were only 80 Nortons registered (compared with 119 for the same period the year before), so sales were taking a proper hammering. Presumably because they couldn't get the parts to build the bikes.
boyse7en said:
Mortgage_tom said:
But the figures of only around 800 bikes sold ever, only one a week was very shocking! Is that right? Turnover around £1 million a year? (Accounts on companies house show nearly £7 million?)
No official sales figures were ever released, but i know that in the UK only 123 Nortons were registered in 2018, and an even more paltry 57 in 2017.Only got figures for Jan-September for 2019, but there were only 80 Nortons registered (compared with 119 for the same period the year before), so sales were taking a proper hammering. Presumably because they couldn't get the parts to build the bikes.
facinating read that superbike article.
Spondon fella seems to be a bit of a willing stooge acting all bewildered as events kept happening.
In a lot of ways im glad SG stiffed the pension funds as at least the mainstream will come after him. If it was just a
bike thing it wouldnt get on the news.
Spondon fella seems to be a bit of a willing stooge acting all bewildered as events kept happening.
In a lot of ways im glad SG stiffed the pension funds as at least the mainstream will come after him. If it was just a
bike thing it wouldnt get on the news.
Mortgage_tom said:
I always thought it was odd that some unheard-of guy who sold fireworks had enough to fund a bike manufacturer. So was interesting from the point of view of how it got started in the early days.
Some unheard of guy who built houses managed it. Quite successfully, too. Then again, he's got a head for business, it would seem.Looking at that Superbike article, some thing's not right. Specifically this:
"We got in touch with Companies House and the Land Registry, to my horror It turned out that almost immediately after buying Bob’s share, Stuart had charged the entire assets of Spondon Engineering, including my shareholding, to Tudor Capital Management for £1.2 million. Without my knowledge. This £1.2 million was the money he took to America and used to buy the Norton brand with.
JH: Aggghh. Oh no. I didn’t know that bit.
ST: We were ruined. When we eventually found out we were faced with the prospect of being destitute. You tell me how one human being can do this to another.
JH: And you had no knowledge of the financial charge placed on Spondon?
ST: None. Handily the pages of the documents that were filed that were supposed to have been signed by me were all missing when we asked to see them.
JH: So you think that Stuart Garner forged your signature?
ST: I do, how else could the paperwork have been filed and why are those particular pages missing from records?"
There's an allegation of a signature being forged to obtain $1.2m. That sounds like a pretty serious criminal offence. So:
- why did Mr Tiller not lodge a complaint with the Police?
-why was Garner not prosecuted?
- why did Tiller not launch civil action to recover the monies whilst Garner had the Fireworks business and there was chance of recovery?
- Why were copies of the agreement not obtained from the lender to prove fraud?
- Typically signatures are witnessed on most legal contracts. What did the witness say?
Whilst clearly Garner is an untrustworthy character to say the least , I do wonder about the integrity of those now only too happy to publically condemn him. Something smells badly. From where I'm sat, Tiller looks to be complicit.
"We got in touch with Companies House and the Land Registry, to my horror It turned out that almost immediately after buying Bob’s share, Stuart had charged the entire assets of Spondon Engineering, including my shareholding, to Tudor Capital Management for £1.2 million. Without my knowledge. This £1.2 million was the money he took to America and used to buy the Norton brand with.
JH: Aggghh. Oh no. I didn’t know that bit.
ST: We were ruined. When we eventually found out we were faced with the prospect of being destitute. You tell me how one human being can do this to another.
JH: And you had no knowledge of the financial charge placed on Spondon?
ST: None. Handily the pages of the documents that were filed that were supposed to have been signed by me were all missing when we asked to see them.
JH: So you think that Stuart Garner forged your signature?
ST: I do, how else could the paperwork have been filed and why are those particular pages missing from records?"
There's an allegation of a signature being forged to obtain $1.2m. That sounds like a pretty serious criminal offence. So:
- why did Mr Tiller not lodge a complaint with the Police?
-why was Garner not prosecuted?
- why did Tiller not launch civil action to recover the monies whilst Garner had the Fireworks business and there was chance of recovery?
- Why were copies of the agreement not obtained from the lender to prove fraud?
- Typically signatures are witnessed on most legal contracts. What did the witness say?
Whilst clearly Garner is an untrustworthy character to say the least , I do wonder about the integrity of those now only too happy to publically condemn him. Something smells badly. From where I'm sat, Tiller looks to be complicit.
bolidemichael said:
Bikers are rife for exploiting as they always look for acceptance and acknowledgement from the mainstream.
His wife was a looker though and she'll be on the lookout now that her man won't be able to provide. Polish up your leathers, lads.
Bit of a bloke's face, but a couple of assets worth exploiting, so to speak...His wife was a looker though and she'll be on the lookout now that her man won't be able to provide. Polish up your leathers, lads.
Pothole said:
bolidemichael said:
Bikers are rife for exploiting as they always look for acceptance and acknowledgement from the mainstream.
His wife was a looker though and she'll be on the lookout now that her man won't be able to provide. Polish up your leathers, lads.
Bit of a bloke's face, but a couple of assets worth exploiting, so to speak...His wife was a looker though and she'll be on the lookout now that her man won't be able to provide. Polish up your leathers, lads.
EDIT: Googled, still no face. A pair of exploitable assets, however. I'm sure they've been incorporated into Tudor Asset Management.
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