Nortons current state

[Pothole]

crofty1984 said:

Aren't they an Indian company? Look at Royal Enfield's turnaround over the last 15 years or so. I imagine they're aware of what they're in for.

Personally, I'm hoping Mahindra make something of BSA as well.

wikipedia, so take a pinch of salt, but

wiki said:

TVS Motor Company (TVS) is an Indian multinational automotive company that manufactures motorcycles, scooters, and three-wheelers, headquartered in Chennai, India. It is the third largest motorcycle company in India with a revenue of over ₹20,000 crore (US$2.7 billion) in 2018–19. The company has an annual sales of three million units and an annual capacity of over four million vehicles. TVS Motor Company is also the second largest two-wheeler exporter in India with exports to over 60 countries.

so they're no fly by night, small beer operation, that's for sure

[poo at Paul's]

Esceptico said:

Triumph make more than 60,000 bikes a year and they are a resurrected brand so started with zero. If Norton gets it right this time around (they are least have the backing of a proper, large group and not a maverick criminal this time) I don’t see why that isn’t potentially achievable.

Well you only make em if you can sell em, and they ain’t for a hope.
I’d be amazed if they ever make more than a thousand a year.

[Steve Bass]

Tango13 said:

mak said:

Tango13 said:

Fantasy Island Skegness? Sounds legit

If Wikipedia is to be believed John Bloor invested somewhere between £70 and £100 million before Triumph broke even, I hope TVS have deep pockets and plenty of patience

Very small minded thought, TVS are in the billions. There not fking about in la la land.
As for offering the old customers anything at all is commendable

Not small minded at all, John Bloor who is also a billionare btw aquired Triumph in 1983 and broke even around 2000, so 17 years and £70~£100m invested to break even.

John Bloor built Triumph with his own cash, the buck stopped with him. Do the board of TVS have the stomach to throw £100m+ at a business with a break even date years in the future whilst all the time having big institutional shareholders second guessing their every move?

I hope Norton succeed but they will need to shift a lot more than 8,000 bikes a year to make any money, Triumphs best year was 2020 when they sold just over 60,000 bikes.

TVS want a halo brand, something that sits in their brand and model line up as the pinnacle of their offerings.
Given their breadth of manufacturing bases, they can design in the UK and manufacture and assemble globally to suit local tax jurisdictions and markets.

Add in the synergies with the existing brands, shared sales floor space and the break even point becomes much more reasonable.
Bloor started with zero and had to build Triumph from the ground up. TVS can develop Norton and slide it into an existing system.
Suddenly, 8000 bikes annually doesn't seem such a difficult proposition.
Too many people here think solely about the UK market.... there's a huge and developing world out there

Edited by Steve Bass on Sunday 14th November 15:22

[gregs656]

Tango13 said:

Not small minded at all, John Bloor who is also a billionare btw aquired Triumph in 1983 and broke even around 2000, so 17 years and £70~£100m invested to break even.

John Bloor built Triumph with his own cash, the buck stopped with him. Do the board of TVS have the stomach to throw £100m+ at a business with a break even date years in the future whilst all the time having big institutional shareholders second guessing their every move?

I hope Norton succeed but they will need to shift a lot more than 8,000 bikes a year to make any money, Triumphs best year was 2020 when they sold just over 60,000 bikes.

Not really comparable. TVS can leverage their existing business in a way JB couldn't.

Edit: Steve put it better than me.

[iansp]

In case anyone is following the Norton pension investment case I see Stuart Garner’s court appearance at South Derbyshire Magistrates Court is now Monday, February 7, 2022, the date having been put back from Monday, November 15, 2021.

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/e...

[Fundoreen]

A bit of huffing and puffing before a range of norton 125s built in India appear.

[Fire99]

I think it's fair to say TVS are a very successful (and very large) company and will have walked into Norton with their eyes open.

Other than unexpected circumstances, I have no doubt in my mind that they know what they're doing with Norton with regards to profitability. Now I can't comment on what models will appear and if we like them all but with regards to overall profitability they'll have a very organised plan..

[crofty1984]

I hope they do something like the 650 Atlas bikes that were announced a couple of years ago. Yes, now we know Garner is a st, but I was really excited about those. The first signs of getting back into the mass market, rather than as a fairly boutique brand.

[Krikkit]

crofty1984 said:

I hope they do something like the 650 Atlas bikes that were announced a couple of years ago. Yes, now we know Garner is a st, but I was really excited about those. The first signs of getting back into the mass market, rather than as a fairly boutique brand.

They'll pick the low-hanging fruit of the nearly-ready halo models, then get working on something more volume-oriented imho.

A retro-styled 125 would be interesting - something like a Bullet but less bargain basement. Maybe something A2 compliant in the same vein as the next step up too.

[boyse7en]

Fundoreen said:

A bit of huffing and puffing before a range of norton 125s built in India appear.

They will probably make a smaller-capacity model for the Indian and other South Asian markets but I doubt it will be a 125. Probably a 650 to compete with the Royal Enfield halo models.
TV already makes and sells thousands of 125 and 150cc machines, there would be no point in targeting their expensive halo brand at a market sector they already successfully compete in.

[Killboy]

So who's going to put a deposit in with them?

[gareth h]

crofty1984 said:

I hope they do something like the 650 Atlas bikes that were announced a couple of years ago. Yes, now we know Garner is a st, but I was really excited about those. The first signs of getting back into the mass market, rather than as a fairly boutique brand.

Hopefully they will fit clutch cables, unlike the bikes shown at the NEC.

[Fundoreen]

gareth h said:

crofty1984 said:

I hope they do something like the 650 Atlas bikes that were announced a couple of years ago. Yes, now we know Garner is a st, but I was really excited about those. The first signs of getting back into the mass market, rather than as a fairly boutique brand.

Hopefully they will fit clutch cables, unlike the bikes shown at the NEC.

I remember seeing these at a show in london. They always had the biggest most impressive stand.
Meanwhile those shifty 4 japanese makes stands were a bit bland....

[gareth h]

Fundoreen said:

I remember seeing these at a show in london. They always had the biggest most impressive stand.
Meanwhile those shifty 4 japanese makes stands were a bit bland....

Yep, maybe they should have spent less on marketing and racing, and more on engineering!

[Turn7]

Slightly OT, but I see BSA are to relaunched at the NEC next week...now owned by Mahindra who also own Peugoet and Jawa.

[chris4652009]

Turn7 said:

Slightly OT, but I see BSA are to relaunched at the NEC next week...now owned by Mahindra who also own Peugoet and Jawa.

yay more Legacy fraud

[Wacky Racer]

chris4652009 said:

Turn7 said:

Slightly OT, but I see BSA are to relaunched at the NEC next week...now owned by Mahindra who also own Peugoet and Jawa.

yay more Legacy fraud

Wait and see what they come up with, I have a feeling it will be rather good. Huge resources behind them.

https://www.mahindra.com/

[black-k1]

chris4652009 said:

Turn7 said:

Slightly OT, but I see BSA are to relaunched at the NEC next week...now owned by Mahindra who also own Peugoet and Jawa.

yay more Legacy fraud

I'm not sure what you mean by "Legacy Fraud". New owners, new factories, new designs, new models, new countries, new markets are all part of the "legacy" of a brand so how is the re-launching of the BSA name legacy fraud?

[Wacky Racer]

New "concept" bike. Very retro and smart indeed.

[srob]

black-k1 said:

chris4652009 said:

Turn7 said:

Slightly OT, but I see BSA are to relaunched at the NEC next week...now owned by Mahindra who also own Peugoet and Jawa.

yay more Legacy fraud

I'm not sure what you mean by "Legacy Fraud". New owners, new factories, new designs, new models, new countries, new markets are all part of the "legacy" of a brand so how is the re-launching of the BSA name legacy fraud?

It's easy (and fashionable) to be cynical and derisory about stuff like this. People think they're "proper" fans if they can turn their nose up at new offerings from new people. Yes they've bought the badge (and so the entitlement to use the history) but that can only be good in my eyes. Loads of people will get interested in the old BSA off the back of it, just as many are in Royal Enfield now.

Wacky Racer said:

New "concept" bike. Very retro and smart indeed.

Think that's an old image that's been about a while. My understanding is they've been very, very secretive about the new bike. There's spy shots but nothing else. My brother's going to the big reveal on Thursday and they've been told very little about the new bike. Exciting to see!