Jorge Lorenzo..

[Ho Lee Kau]

Steve Bass said:

Zarco said:

I wonder if Honda realise they are on thin ice if Marquez leaves or is injured. Without him they'd be nowhere in the championship.

Problem is that Honda might be caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.
Keep focusing the bike around MM93 at the the expense of other riders ability to manage the bike and be (relatively) competitive or dual back the MM93 focus on creating a more balanced bike and upset MM who would demand #1 status and full development priorities into possibly leaving.
No easy answer.

Personally I think the current winning strategy for Honda is concentrate 100% on MM93.
He is way better and more consistent than anyone else.
Even if he does not push 100% he is able to win more championships.
Keep the winning streak and when things turn sour, ok, one year without win, developing a more accessible bike, and then back into fighting for podiums with whoever is then the strongest rider (I think Honda will be able to attract or poach the top riders.)

Zarco, amazingly, is likely to become the second fiddle, unless Honda recruits MM's little brother (though I believe MM did not think Alex was ready for MotoGP just yet?) Personally, I also do not think that Zarco really deserves the Honda factory seat.

[Slippydiff]

Ho Lee Kau said:

Just read comments from Agostini and Reggiani, they were not particularly positive on JL, saying he was great rider when things were going his way, otherwise he would break down, he was too attached to money, too proud and should have kept his mouth shut at times, also that he did not grow up enough mentally...
Graziano Rossi said he was surprised by the retirement, but would not be surprised if next season JL suddenly came back to racing.

You're referring to Loris Reggiani I presume ?

[Rat_Fink_67]

Ho Lee Kau said:

Just read comments from Agostini and Reggiani, they were not particularly positive on JL, saying he was great rider when things were going his way, otherwise he would break down, he was too attached to money, too proud and should have kept his mouth shut at times, also that he did not grow up enough mentally...
Graziano Rossi said he was surprised by the retirement, but would not be surprised if next season JL suddenly came back to racing.

That kind of contradicts what I've read from Alberto Puig (a renowned bd), who has said he was a real gentleman and very professional. Either way I don't think snippets and quotes in the media ever give us a true insight to what these guys are like in the real world.

[Slippydiff]

Ho Lee Kau said:

Agree. JL made a HUGE mistake switching to Honda with a teammate MM93 at his waaay-above-everyone-else peak and the bike developed year in year out (for years) 101% for one rider.
It was too much competition and too little support. Should have stayed at Ducati, or gone to some other manufacturer.

He made huge mistake going to Honda, if he actually planned to race competitively, that is.

I guess money talked. Did he really go for the money?
Then maybe he was not mentally prepared to race competitively already when he switched, and that loss of mental sharpness contributed to the crashes he had.

I wonder if Honda will pay him the 2020 money even though he does not ride?

His and their lawyers will no doubt come to some agreement.

It'll be interesting to see if he makes a comeback at some point, clearly he's contracted to ride for HRC next year, so the only way to get out of riding for them that year is to say you're retiring. question is was that forced upon him by Puig/HRC ?

JL gets paid for a year spent sunbathing/going to the gym. Honda don't lose face (having never broken a contract with a rider in Moto GP ?) and JL neatly removes himself out of the Moto GP equation for the year.

Will that year will spent building bridges with Ducati or Linn Jarvis ? and recuperating/getting his back sorted, to miraculously announce his return in 2021

I for one, hope so.

[Johno]

Thank you Jorge, you remain the only rider to have beaten Marquez on the grid, no one else has achieved that since he joined MotoGP.

Outrageously fast on his day, not known for enjoying a fight, but rewatch his 250 days and you can quickly challenge that assertion.

At PI, it was clear, in poor weather when Zarco rode round the outside of him at the bottom of Lukey Heights, in the wet, when Lorenzo was on a flying lap, that Jorge was scared and there is commentary around describing how he looked on the bike. There were also incidents of jokes regarding his retirement in the paddock - if you don’t, you may wanna to listen to the Paddock Pass Podcast, a lot in there this week on this.

Zarco is a real talent, let’s not ignore that he was going better than Cal at Sepang and should have finished top 7. Yes it the easier 2018 bike, but that’s impressive on your second run out on it. Does he deserve the factory seat .... don’t know.

However, 2020 is such a funny year. End of the year everybodies contract is up for grabs. Rossi won’t get sacked, he’ll either retire or continue, but Yamaha won’t not re-sign him, Marquez likely to stay at Honda, Vinales may move, Quateraro probably best to stay at Yamaha, but Ducati sniffing around, Dovi’s contract is up, Petrucci as well....

I don’t rate Miller, he doesn’t have what Marquez, Quateraro & maybe Vinales is getting too. He’s second with Cal, Dovi etc. The riding style is changing and it’s going to be really interesting to see how Binder and Lecuona go .... Bradl doesn’t have it either. Rins on some days does, Mir, maybe ....

I agree a changing of the guard is coming as well, over the next 2 seasons.... there’s never a revolution though, but I think a lot more shifts than for a while.

Also, Marquez will want a good rider opposite him, not someone also ran, delivering the triple crown and record points haul are his ambitions this year, a better second rider would have already delivered the 2 missing parts going into Valencia.

[egor110]

Ho Lee Kau said:

Just read comments from Agostini and Reggiani, they were not particularly positive on JL, saying he was great rider when things were going his way, otherwise he would break down, he was too attached to money, too proud and should have kept his mouth shut at times, also that he did not grow up enough mentally...
Graziano Rossi said he was surprised by the retirement, but would not be surprised if next season JL suddenly came back to racing.

Worth going back and reading his biography .

Pretty sure he never actually wanted to race bikes , his dad / uncle ? pushed him into it , so for him it's probably not a huge passion just a job .

[Slippydiff]

Rat_Fink_67 said:

Ho Lee Kau said:

Just read comments from Agostini and Reggiani, they were not particularly positive on JL, saying he was great rider when things were going his way, otherwise he would break down, he was too attached to money, too proud and should have kept his mouth shut at times, also that he did not grow up enough mentally...
Graziano Rossi said he was surprised by the retirement, but would not be surprised if next season JL suddenly came back to racing.

That kind of contradicts what I've read from Alberto Puig (a renowned bd), who has said he was a real gentleman and very professional. Either way I don't think snippets and quotes in the media ever give us a true insight to what these guys are like in the real world.

If, as I suspect HLK is referring to Loris Reggiani, his (Reggiani's) comments on Lorenzo would be akin to Tim Henman having a pop at Rafael Nadal. Ago's comments are another matter altogether, but my guess is the Italian press have most likely twisted what he said regarding Lorenzo.

[Slippydiff]

egor110 said:

Worth going back and reading his biography .

Pretty sure he never actually wanted to race bikes , his dad / uncle ? pushed him into it , so for him it's probably not a huge passion just a job .

This ^
His biography gives a very telling and incredibly intimate insight into a very complex, and some would say, messed up individual.
His father pretty much bullied him through his early days in motorcycling.
He had a very messed up childhood, I suspect his father lived out his dreams of being a successful motorcyle racer vicariously through Jorge. It's little wonder he appears to have been accused of not growing up mentally. I've no doubt his childhood curtailed his ability to become a rounded mature adult.

Let's not forget he came into the white hot cauldron of Moto GP when Rossi was already considered a demigod, and in attempting to de-throne and usurp VR, he made a lot of enemies. He goes in to great detail in his book as to how he had to quite literally had to teach himself how to smile on demand when meeting fans and doing interviews.
He's not a naturally ebullient character like Valentino and Marquez, but he made a massive effort to be liked in order to make his life easier in front of the camera.

I suspect/hope Suzi Perry will do a piece on him this weekend, she seems to have a real appreciation of him. I suspect she's bothered to read his book and found it incredibly useful in understanding him, from comments she's made.

[egor110]

Slippydiff said:

egor110 said:

Worth going back and reading his biography .

Pretty sure he never actually wanted to race bikes , his dad / uncle ? pushed him into it , so for him it's probably not a huge passion just a job .

This ^
His biography gives a very telling and incredibly intimate insight into a very complex, and some would say, messed up individual.
His father pretty much bullied him through his early days in motorcycling.
He had a very messed up childhood, I suspect his father lived out his dreams of being a successful motorcyle racer vicariously through Jorge. It's little wonder he appears to have been accused of not growing up mentally. I've no doubt his childhood curtailed his ability to become a rounded mature adult.

Let's not forget he came into the white hot cauldron of Moto GP when Rossi was already considered a demigod, and in attempting to de-throne and usurp VR, he made a lot of enemies. He goes in to great detail in his book as to how he had to quite literally had to teach himself how to smile on demand when meeting fans and doing interviews.
He's not a naturally ebullient character like Valentino and Marquez, but he made a massive effort to be liked in order to make his life easier in front of the camera.

I suspect/hope Suzi Perry will do a piece on him this weekend, she seems to have a real appreciation of him. I suspect she's bothered to read his book and found it incredibly useful in understanding him, from comments she's made.

I really hope he has or finds something to do with the rest of his life that he actually want's to do that's assuming he knows himself.

When melandri did his retirement interview he seemed pretty positive as there were loads of winter sports he wanted to do he couldn't when he was paid to race plus he has his wife and child , when crutchlow retires hopefully he's not so injured he can't cycle anymore.

[obscene]

I have this strange feeling there's a lot of things behind the scenes influencing this but he will be sniffing around for 2021. While he has had a huge accident messing with his back, he won 3 races on the duke in his last season at Ducati. I definitely feel he could take it to Marc on the duke.

[Mr Tidy]

obscene said:

I have this strange feeling there's a lot of things behind the scenes influencing this but he will be sniffing around for 2021. While he has had a huge accident messing with his back, he won 3 races on the duke in his last season at Ducati. I definitely feel he could take it to Marc on the duke.

To be fair I don't think there is anyone on the grid that could challenge MM - least of all JL!

[Slippydiff]

Mr Tidy said:

obscene said:

I have this strange feeling there's a lot of things behind the scenes influencing this but he will be sniffing around for 2021. While he has had a huge accident messing with his back, he won 3 races on the duke in his last season at Ducati. I definitely feel he could take it to Marc on the duke.

To be fair I don't think there is anyone on the grid that could challenge MM - least of all JL!

With the right equipment, Rossi, Vinales, Lorenzo, Dovi, Fabio Quatararo and Rins are all capable of challenging and beating Marquez.

And Miller, Crutchlow and Petrucci would be there to pick up the pieces in the event all the others are having a really bad weekend.

[anonymous-user]

I’m not sure why there is such drama about JL hanging up his boots? Great career, multiple world champion, lost the desire now and probably his body needs some rest.

Thanks, bye, seat goes to the next man. All he has done this year is embarrass himself to be frank, and when you many hungry riders just gagging to get on that Honda nostalgia plays no part.

[Teddy Lop]

Steve Bass said:

Zarco said:

I wonder if Honda realise they are on thin ice if Marquez leaves or is injured. Without him they'd be nowhere in the championship.

Problem is that Honda might be caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.
Keep focusing the bike around MM93 at the the expense of other riders ability to manage the bike and be (relatively) competitive or dual back the MM93 focus on creating a more balanced bike and upset MM who would demand #1 status and full development priorities into possibly leaving.
No easy answer.

I don't think marc is all that useful in the way of development though, that's the problem - not for him personally he could ride anything, but Honda have to consider post-marquez, rather than sit back and lean on his talent.

[Ho Lee Kau]

Slippydiff said:

Rat_Fink_67 said:

Ho Lee Kau said:

Just read comments from Agostini and Reggiani, they were not particularly positive on JL, saying he was great rider when things were going his way, otherwise he would break down, he was too attached to money, too proud and should have kept his mouth shut at times, also that he did not grow up enough mentally...
Graziano Rossi said he was surprised by the retirement, but would not be surprised if next season JL suddenly came back to racing.

That kind of contradicts what I've read from Alberto Puig (a renowned bd), who has said he was a real gentleman and very professional. Either way I don't think snippets and quotes in the media ever give us a true insight to what these guys are like in the real world.

If, as I suspect HLK is referring to Loris Reggiani, his (Reggiani's) comments on Lorenzo would be akin to Tim Henman having a pop at Rafael Nadal. Ago's comments are another matter altogether, but my guess is the Italian press have most likely twisted what he said regarding Lorenzo.

Agostini: dispiaceva vederlo ridotto così
«Il ritiro era nell’aria – dice il 15 volte campione del mondo - e si trattava di capire chi avrebbe fatto il primo passo tra lui e la Honda. Jorge è stato un grande, quando c’è un grande pilota che fa grandi cose io mi inchino: e lui ha battuto dei grandi come Valentino e come Márquez, giusto dargli merito. Purtroppo però è anche vero che lui è sempre stato così: quando tutto girava per il verso giusto era una bestia, diversamente andava indietro. E’ caduto, si è fatto male, è vulnerabile. Certo dispiaceva molto vederlo messo così male, ma se è andato in crisi non è stato a causa di Márquez o della moto. Una crisi esistenziale e personale».

Reggiani: pilota fortissimo, ma non così completo
«Me lo aspettavo, lo stop, perché Jorge è attaccato ai soldi ma anche molto orgoglioso: continuare con la Honda lo avrebbe esposto a figure inaccettabili. E’ stato un pilota particolare: da come l’ho visto io, arrivando in MotoGP ha fatto un gran lavoro per diventare forte di testa, e il salto è stato effettivamente esagerato. E’ andato subito fortissimo con la Yamaha. Ma credo anche che mantenere quei livelli, se mentalmente forte non ci nasci, abbia un costo: sprechi un mucchio di energie e più facilmente crolli. E’ stato un pilota incompleto, non sempre lucidissimo, e che in diverse occasioni sarebbe risultato più simpatico se avesse tenuto la bocca chiusa».

Personally I think it is a loss to the sport. Sad day. Would be amazing if he reappeared on the grid again.

Edited by Ho Lee Kau on Friday 15th November 08:48

[poo at Paul's]

hiccy18 said:

Yeah alright, you don't like Zarco, understood. I think you're far off with your assessment, let's see what HRC and Alberto Puig think eh?

Well, as I said, he will get it I am sure, but that doesn't mean he deserves it. There's far more at play here than some may realise.
Think about it, why did they sign Lorenzo....? It's been no surprise at all to most of us how poorly Lorenzo fared on the Honda, injuries aside, he'd have been struggling for top 10s as the bike's characteristics, the way it works, just does not fit with Lorenzo's style.
They signed him to get him off a Ducati!!! No more no less.

If Zarco get's the ride, he will do better than Lorenzo, but he'll be struggling on it too and they wont want him getting in Marc's way...….whereas, the thought of Zarco back on a Yam, which suits his style (lest we forget he binned his factory KTM to have a slim chance of a Yam test rider job, so motivated is he to get back on a Yam), well that worries Honda and HRC.

Truth is, when you have Marc on a Honda in the form he is in, you don't need anyone else on a bike really! So if you can sign people who may be a problem in other teams, and control them and their progress from within, more power to you.

It's been going on in other sports for years, guys signed for top footy teams to sit on the bench for 250k a week, just so they aint playing for the opposition.

Honda will be rubbing their hands with glee as to how it has panned out with Lorenzo, sadly. They thought they could get him out of the sharp end for 2 years, if he then went back to Ducati, he would be 2 years older etc, as it is, he'd beaten himself half to death, and gone for good now, all in 12 months. They only have to worry about Quatrararro now, and unless the Yam gets 15kmh more this year, they can deal with that. BUt you can bet your life that at the minute, they are chucking the kitchen sink full of cash at Fabio's agent to see if they can get him on the Honda, so Marc can be unchallenged in 2020.

[swampy442]

So long Jorge, when you were good, you were really bloody good. Bit of a wrong turn taking the Honda ride IMO,

All this chat about Zarco automatically getting the vacant seat, he's a guy famed for smooth, controlled riding (like Lorenzo....) on a bike you have to wrestle round the track rather than ride, did anybody see the slo mo vid of Crutchlows front end chatter in Malaysia? The only person who can reliably make it work is MM, who the bike has been built round and is, well, a bit of a freak lol.

Who'll get the seat? I kind of think Crutchlow will get a shot, as said before a year on the Repsol before he retires and is replaced by the other Marquez

[poo at Paul's]

swampy442 said:

So long Jorge, when you were good, you were really bloody good. Bit of a wrong turn taking the Honda ride IMO,

All this chat about Zarco automatically getting the vacant seat, he's a guy famed for smooth, controlled riding (like Lorenzo....) on a bike you have to wrestle round the track rather than ride, did anybody see the slo mo vid of Crutchlows front end chatter in Malaysia? The only person who can reliably make it work is MM, who the bike has been built round and is, well, a bit of a freak lol.

Who'll get the seat? I kind of think Crutchlow will get a shot, as said before a year on the Repsol before he retires and is replaced by the other Marquez

I think the Crutchlow thing is a non started due to his Monster sponsorship, but in effect he is already on a full factory Honda is he not? Honda ran three factory bikes in Repsol colours for years, I think now it's just one is in LCR colours.
But I agree it would be great to see him in the full factory team and colours.

[egor110]

yonex said:

I’m not sure why there is such drama about JL hanging up his boots? Great career, multiple world champion, lost the desire now and probably his body needs some rest.

Thanks, bye, seat goes to the next man. All he has done this year is embarrass himself to be frank, and when you many hungry riders just gagging to get on that Honda nostalgia plays no part.

Well we could say the same about Rossi.

From the the goat to lucky to get top 10 this year , hanging around taking up a seat.

[swampy442]

poo at Paul's said:

I think the Crutchlow thing is a non started due to his Monster sponsorship, but in effect he is already on a full factory Honda is he not? Honda ran three factory bikes in Repsol colours for years, I think now it's just one is in LCR colours.
But I agree it would be great to see him in the full factory team and colours.

My thinking is - Zarco has had 1 race weekend on it, Crutchlow knows the team, the management, the bike, if the drink sponsor is the only stumbling block I'm sure Red Bull could out muscle Monster if they really wanted to. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see Zarco succeed, and curious to see how he adapts his style but in my eyes he's not the logical chice