Three jailed for dangerous driving

[vonhosen]

yonex said:

Esceptico said:

You seem incapable of distinguishing between speeding and dangerous driving. I certainly try to never do the latter. So I’m not a hypocrite for slating people that do.

You’re as full of crap as Von tbh. Live and let live, and yes, you really are.

Do you realise how daft your live & let live is?
So Burglary & robbery are OK? After all live & let live.
Or are you allowed to draw a line between different offences (some acceptable, some not), but Esceptico isn't?

[anonymous-user]

vonhosen said:

Which bit of it's not about the law are you struggling with?
It's about riding.

I’m not struggling with anything. Apart from you preaching on every thread about every law, yet admitting your as guilty as the next man of ‘not being a saint’

As I said. Hypocrite. Which part of that doesn’t sink in exactly?

[vonhosen]

yonex said:

vonhosen said:

Which bit of it's not about the law are you struggling with?
It's about riding.

I’m not struggling with anything. Apart from you preaching on every thread about every law, yet admitting your as guilty as the next man of ‘not being a saint’

As I said. Hypocrite. Which part of that doesn’t sink in exactly?

There you go again, I've just told you it's not about the law it's about riding (it wouldn't matter if the riding hadn't been illegal, it would still have been riding) but you can't read what's in front of you & you go back to the law.

You then keep going on about the law is the law, but live & let live.
You admit to breaking the law yourself & in other threads complain about others who commit offences. Then you start calling others hypocrites for doing what you do, mentally separate some low level offending from some higher level offending.
You're comedy gold.

Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 4th December 09:25

[Grindle]

Vonhosen, can i ask you something? I have 3 bikes at present, 2 of which do 180 mph and 200 mph respectively. The faster one will do 125 mph in second gear (i am told, officer.......).
What sort of speed on the 'right' road is acceptable to you then? Is it the actual speed limit always because whilst i am accident-free (blame free, i have fallen off a bike 3 times in total) in over a million road miles, i am not an angel on the 'right' road.
Yonex rarely talks anything other than perfect common sense and is someone on here i would listen to about bikes for sure.
Maybe i am stupid too but is 71 ok on the motorway, or 91? 61 on a country lane or 81?
Just wondering where your lines really are, thanks.

[vonhosen]

Grindle said:

Vonhosen, can i ask you something? I have 3 bikes at present, 2 of which do 180 mph and 200 mph respectively. The faster one will do 125 mph in second gear (i am told, officer.......).
What sort of speed on the 'right' road is acceptable to you then? Is it the actual speed limit always because whilst i am accident-free (blame free, i have fallen off a bike 3 times in total) in over a million road miles, i am not an angel on the 'right' road.
Yonex rarely talks anything other than perfect common sense and is someone on here i would listen to about bikes for sure.
Maybe i am stupid too but is 71 ok on the motorway, or 91? 61 on a country lane or 81?
Just wondering where your lines really are, thanks.

I've driven & ridden at very high speeds on public roads (including bikes with performance similar to yours). As such I don't have a single maximum number that is acceptable (in safety terms) for different road types . It's a dynamic thing dependent on a multitude of individual factors prevalent at the time, including amongst others the time, the place, the manner, the purpose, the weather conditions etc etc.

[anonymous-user]

vonhosen said:

There you go again, I've just told you it's not about the law it's about riding (it wouldn't matter if the riding hadn't been illegal, it would still have been riding) but you can't read what's in front of you & you go back to the law.

You then keep going on about the law is the law, but live & let live.
You admit to breaking the law yourself & in other threads complain about others who commit offences. Then you start calling others hypocrites for doing what you do, mentally separate some low level offending from some higher level offending.
You're comedy gold.

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 4th December 09:25

I think you’ll find I’m dead against custodial sentences for things like this. I also don’t preach the Highway Code, then proceed to carry on regardless myself. You’re a hypocrite, and a bit of a pillock to be honest. Same as most coppers I’ve met, ride like the rest of us...when it suits.

[vonhosen]

yonex said:

vonhosen said:

There you go again, I've just told you it's not about the law it's about riding (it wouldn't matter if the riding hadn't been illegal, it would still have been riding) but you can't read what's in front of you & you go back to the law.

You then keep going on about the law is the law, but live & let live.
You admit to breaking the law yourself & in other threads complain about others who commit offences. Then you start calling others hypocrites for doing what you do, mentally separate some low level offending from some higher level offending.
You're comedy gold.

Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 4th December 09:25

I think you’ll find I’m dead against custodial sentences for things like this. I also don’t preach the Highway Code, then proceed to carry on regardless myself. You’re a hypocrite, and a bit of a pillock to be honest. Same as most coppers I’ve met, ride like the rest of us...when it suits.

I've said, I don't ride like the guys in the video.
How others here ride, I've no idea.

[hman]

Get a room you two ffs

Why you rise to the bait everytime baffles me.

[anonymous-user]

hman said:

Get a room you two ffs

Why you rise to the bait everytime baffles me.

I get that, but I’m sick and tired of listening to Von lecture the entire internet, when he openly admits being no better himself, picking and choosing which and what areas of the RTA apply to him, and putting that across in a most condescending tone. Anyway, yes, he’ll never change so whatever. Must ignore him.

[vonhosen]

yonex said:

hman said:

Get a room you two ffs

Why you rise to the bait everytime baffles me.

I get that, but I’m sick and tired of listening to Von lecture the entire internet, when he openly admits being no better himself, picking and choosing which and what areas of the RTA apply to him, and putting that across in a most condescending tone. Anyway, yes, he’ll never change so whatever. Must ignore him.

[Hungrymc]

When we keep hearing about prison crowding having an impact on sentencing. Violent offenders being released early. No custodial sentences for horrendous crime and burglary etc. I think the sentencing here is nothing short of obscene.

[DJP]

yonex said:

Daft riding, but it shows exactly everything that’s wrong with the justice system these days. Jail terms, taking productive people out of society, meanwhile letting ‘low priority’ criminals off the hook. Typical hysteria from the press, judge and Police.

Couldn't agree more and I'm a serving police officer.

I'm utterly fed up with the derisory sentences handed out to real criminals.

So some bikers went too fast and did some wheelies. Well cry me a river.

Meanwhile, a car driver of my acquaintance got off with a ban and a fine for actually killing someone while over the drink drive limit.

Justice? My arse.

[Esceptico]

DJP said:

yonex said:

Daft riding, but it shows exactly everything that’s wrong with the justice system these days. Jail terms, taking productive people out of society, meanwhile letting ‘low priority’ criminals off the hook. Typical hysteria from the press, judge and Police.

Couldn't agree more and I'm a serving police officer.

I'm utterly fed up with the derisory sentences handed out to real criminals.

So some bikers went too fast and did some wheelies. Well cry me a river.

Meanwhile, a car driver of my acquaintance got off with a ban and a fine for actually killing someone while over the drink drive limit.

Justice? My arse.

I don’t understand the logic of these types of posts. The solution to the problem is not to give everyone lenient sentences but to give harsher sentences to those currently getting away with it.

Sentencing serves a number of purposes. One of those is deterrence. In this case the bikers were not only breaking the law but by posting it on social media they were flouting it.

[Esceptico]

I suppose what pisses me off most about these dheads and makes me unsympathetic towards their sentencing is that bikers already suffer a fair amount of prejudice and often ill will from car drivers and the general public and their st riding feeds that prejudice. We are always at risk of having our fun curtailed by the four wheeled driving majority.

[Grindle]

Vonhosen, so you have done 150 on the public road. Let's keep this honest, you didn't SAY 150 but from what you DID say, that is clear. At least we no know where you stand because in your debate with Yonex it all got very cloudy.
Well, by definition, you are open to criticism because even on the 'right' road in the 'right' circumstances things can change in an instant at that speed. Speeding is always a calculated risk and having read through your exchanges with Yonex the problem is that the overall picture you present seems to be that you are safe speeding but nobody else is. I don't know you, you may well be a very nice guy, but i would suggest you accept that you too drive dangerously at times and the truth is i know NOBODY with a Yamaha R1 or Panigale 1299 who has kept to 70 mph maximum always. I was doing circa 130 on the 'busa yesterday and it was 99.9% safe, due to where i was and when, but that 1 in thousand chance could happen. Few of us are angels on powerful bikes.

[vonhosen]

Grindle said:

Vonhosen, so you have done 150 on the public road. Let's keep this honest, you didn't SAY 150 but from what you DID say, that is clear. At least we no know where you stand because in your debate with Yonex it all got very cloudy.
Well, by definition, you are open to criticism because even on the 'right' road in the 'right' circumstances things can change in an instant at that speed. Speeding is always a calculated risk and having read through your exchanges with Yonex the problem is that the overall picture you present seems to be that you are safe speeding but nobody else is. I don't know you, you may well be a very nice guy, but i would suggest you accept that you too drive dangerously at times and the truth is i know NOBODY with a Yamaha R1 or Panigale 1299 who has kept to 70 mph maximum always. I was doing circa 130 on the 'busa yesterday and it was 99.9% safe, due to where i was and when, but that 1 in thousand chance could happen. Few of us are angels on powerful bikes.

Of course driving/riding is a calculated (& not without any) risk. At ANY speed. But it doesn't have to amount to dangerous driving at any speed. The fact risk exists does not make something dangerous driving in legal terms. It's not a case of I'm doing it safely & everybody else isn't, there are plenty of people who drive at speeds well in excess of our limits without it amounting to dangerous driving. You appear to be conflating what may be a small amount of risk & what is legally termed as dangerous driving. One does not equate the other. What matters, in dangerous driving, is the when, where, why, how etc. Hence the 21 year old (I linked to) in his dad's Porsche doing 150mph & it not being regarded as dangerous driving.

The riding in the video was objectively irrespective of whether it was legal or not. It also happened to satisfy dangerous driving because of the when, why, where, how etc.

[Esceptico]

Grindle said:

Vonhosen, so you have done 150 on the public road. Let's keep this honest, you didn't SAY 150 but from what you DID say, that is clear. At least we no know where you stand because in your debate with Yonex it all got very cloudy.
Well, by definition, you are open to criticism because even on the 'right' road in the 'right' circumstances things can change in an instant at that speed. Speeding is always a calculated risk and having read through your exchanges with Yonex the problem is that the overall picture you present seems to be that you are safe speeding but nobody else is. I don't know you, you may well be a very nice guy, but i would suggest you accept that you too drive dangerously at times and the truth is i know NOBODY with a Yamaha R1 or Panigale 1299 who has kept to 70 mph maximum always. I was doing circa 130 on the 'busa yesterday and it was 99.9% safe, due to where i was and when, but that 1 in thousand chance could happen. Few of us are angels on powerful bikes.

What I find missing from a lot of discourse these days is context. It goes far beyond bikes and speeding.

I would hope that most reasonable people on here can recognise the difference between exceeding the speed limit (which is breaking a law) and dangerous driving. They are not the same. They may happen at the same time but not necessarily. In my view (and I believe in law) the latter is much worse.

Over my lifetime on the road I may have unintentionally strayed from one to the other. The older I’ve for the better I have become at sticking to and limiting the occurrence of the former. But I’m no angel too. The difference is that I try only to put myself in danger (if anyone).

The people who videoed themselves rode with no respect for other road users nor for the safety of third parties. They didn’t do so by mistake or accident (loading their antics on social media shows they were proud of their actions). To me that is fundamentally different from speeding and warrants a much harsher sentence. I am not sure whether prison is too harsh. Frankly I can appreciate the arguments for and against but can’t make a judgement without knowing more details of the case, their previous convictions and their attitude towards the offending.

[Prof Prolapse]

Esceptico said:

I don’t understand the logic of these types of posts. The solution to the problem is not to give everyone lenient sentences but to give harsher sentences to those currently getting away with it.

Sentencing serves a number of purposes. One of those is deterrence. In this case the bikers were not only breaking the law but by posting it on social media they were flouting it.

Your logic is specious though.

Clearly dangerous driving which results in killing another innocent human being also requires a suitable deterrent, and based on the example you quote this has not been the case.

The sentencing relative to both crimes, whether for punishment or deterrent, is clearly not in the interests of "justice". Effectively letting someone of for ending someone's life, is clearly not proportional to the crime when you consider a group jailed for making videos of them riding like dheads.

Anecdotally courts do seem to come down very hard on bikers. Perhaps that is just media bias however.

[Hungrymc]

Isn’t ‘dangerous driving’ a subjective assessment?

If my understanding is correct (judgment of a reasonably competent driver etc)

It would be quite difficult to argue 150mph as not being at risk of being judged dangerous driving.

Very inconsistent sentencing here

[anonymous-user]

Again, Mr Von, you appear to be making assumptions that when you ride at excess speed it’s not dangerous in the eyes of plod, I’d say give that a try, perhaps Scotland, see how it goes for you? Do you think you’re a better rider at speed than most people, is this where the arrogance comes from? Have you ever been on a track day, held a race license etc, police training at what level? Oh, and answer the direct question, you travel at 100-150mph for a bit of fun now and again, or, as you should be given your tone, strictly 10% over?

As has been said, none of us are angels when given a clear road and excess of grunt. I think you’re desperate to say ‘the law’s an ass’, but are so caught up in trying to justify your own actions, that this would make you look very daft.

Anyway. Must try harder

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 5th December 09:33