Older 2 stroke fans, anyone remember these tuners?
Discussion
graham22 said:
My argument when someone tells me a RG500 is still a GSXR1000 killer.
Happy to have owned my RG back in 1989 when it was a match for bigger bikes of the time - a CBR600 soon became faster and was already better tyred and braked.
Spot on. There's loads of sHappy to have owned my RG back in 1989 when it was a match for bigger bikes of the time - a CBR600 soon became faster and was already better tyred and braked.
te talked about the strokers, but they were quickly surpassed. Some countries, such as South Africa didn't import the RG as the GSXR was the answer to most people's question. Looking back now, with both bikes, why would you chose the high maintenance 500 when the superior 750 was available. Rob 131 Sport said:
Whilst a stock RG500 was quoted at 95BHP, as I can recall within the contemporary motorcycle press the real figure was less with the tuned versions producing around 100 BHP.
Perhaps some of the owners and /or tuners could clarify this based on dyno readings.
I'll start. Std NS400 fresh from rebuild. 60.5 hp on an honest dyno. A std RG/RD is 70hp. Expect a load of w@nk to the contraryPerhaps some of the owners and /or tuners could clarify this based on dyno readings.
graham22 said:
J__Wood said:
I had a Stan Stephens X7 back in the early/mid 80s.
Used it for hill climbs and twisty sprints, peaky little blighter.
Always made Hartland Quay/Point just after the start where a low wall keeps you totally safe from the drop off the cliff massive fun as its headlight searched out the sky.
Never worried about the cliff, the first blind right bend before tge paddock was the challenge.Used it for hill climbs and twisty sprints, peaky little blighter.
Always made Hartland Quay/Point just after the start where a low wall keeps you totally safe from the drop off the cliff massive fun as its headlight searched out the sky.
Was your X7 tge one with both pipes exiting I the same side - or something tells me that might have been Barry Gartsides??
My X7 had symmetrical microns, probably why I never kept up with Barry or the YZ250s or TZs etc.
That and worrying about if my Dolly Sprint 'tow car' would blow its head gasket on the way home.
I usually had number thirteen and in the road legal class to get those extra runs (cheap skate).
In 82 or 83 I did convince my mate to tow the bikes up (he also had an X7) so I could ride there on my shiny new end of production bargain CBX 1000 and take it for a blast up the hill - bottled that though...
J__Wood said:
Hi Graham, yes you're right on the first bend, I think the cliff was pretty much down to being an excitable 18 y/o and growing up on the Cornish coast so expecting massive cliffs (I remember it as similar to Grand Canyon).
My X7 had symmetrical microns, probably why I never kept up with Barry or the YZ250s or TZs etc.
That and worrying about if my Dolly Sprint 'tow car' would blow its head gasket on the way home.
I usually had number thirteen and in the road legal class to get those extra runs (cheap skate).
In 82 or 83 I did convince my mate to tow the bikes up (he also had an X7) so I could ride there on my shiny new end of production bargain CBX 1000 and take it for a blast up the hill - bottled that though...
A little bit before me, started in 85 with an X7, replaced with an IT250 for '88 and changed to a KX250 (from Keith Parnell) mid '89. Smashed my leg in '90 and won Cornish 250 championship in 91, CR500 from 92 till 2000.My X7 had symmetrical microns, probably why I never kept up with Barry or the YZ250s or TZs etc.
That and worrying about if my Dolly Sprint 'tow car' would blow its head gasket on the way home.
I usually had number thirteen and in the road legal class to get those extra runs (cheap skate).
In 82 or 83 I did convince my mate to tow the bikes up (he also had an X7) so I could ride there on my shiny new end of production bargain CBX 1000 and take it for a blast up the hill - bottled that though...
Dad had an X7 hillclimber too, he sold that in '89 but I bought it back recently and put it back on the road - horrid & peaky as a tuned 2 stroke of that era was.
Porthkerris:
NS400R said:
Spot on. There's loads of ste talked about the strokers, but they were quickly surpassed. Some countries, such as South Africa didn't import the RG as the GSXR was the answer to most people's question. Looking back now, with both bikes, why would you chose the high maintenance 500 when the superior 750 was available.
In our group one GPZ600 was a match for the RG.stock it wasn’t rapid. Sounded epic though. te talked about the strokers, but they were quickly surpassed. Some countries, such as South Africa didn't import the RG as the GSXR was the answer to most people's question. Looking back now, with both bikes, why would you chose the high maintenance 500 when the superior 750 was available. 
Fast strokers are patently really old now, but a few in my view are still worthy out there among the sport bike riders.
EG. Set up an Aprilia RS250 and let an experienced tuner get the best from it and add a set of expansion chambers and you have a very light bike with 70 bhp and a chassis still good enough. A set of better brake lines and pads and decent fluid gives you excellent stoppers. Get the suspension set up for your weight (not too much on a 250 hopefully) and you'll be there or there abouts on most public roads. Whilst avoiding the same 4 pot 4 stroke sound everyone else is making!
EG. Set up an Aprilia RS250 and let an experienced tuner get the best from it and add a set of expansion chambers and you have a very light bike with 70 bhp and a chassis still good enough. A set of better brake lines and pads and decent fluid gives you excellent stoppers. Get the suspension set up for your weight (not too much on a 250 hopefully) and you'll be there or there abouts on most public roads. Whilst avoiding the same 4 pot 4 stroke sound everyone else is making!
BroadsRS6 said:
Fast strokers are patently really old now, but a few in my view are still worthy out there among the sport bike riders.
EG. Set up an Aprilia RS250 and let an experienced tuner get the best from it and add a set of expansion chambers and you have a very light bike with 70 bhp and a chassis still good enough. A set of better brake lines and pads and decent fluid gives you excellent stoppers. Get the suspension set up for your weight (not too much on a 250 hopefully) and you'll be there or there abouts on most public roads. Whilst avoiding the same 4 pot 4 stroke sound everyone else is making!
Best you'll get out of the RS250 is 65 bhp and even as fun as it is, a 600 will annihilate it. The only advantage of the stroker is corner entry if the rider is able to use it. EG. Set up an Aprilia RS250 and let an experienced tuner get the best from it and add a set of expansion chambers and you have a very light bike with 70 bhp and a chassis still good enough. A set of better brake lines and pads and decent fluid gives you excellent stoppers. Get the suspension set up for your weight (not too much on a 250 hopefully) and you'll be there or there abouts on most public roads. Whilst avoiding the same 4 pot 4 stroke sound everyone else is making!
You can carry (comparativly) huge corner speed, even changing up on full taps mid corner but once the road opens, a superbike will be gone.... ad for better brakes, that's anathema to the basic requirements of getting a stroker to hustle.... the RS's Bembo's (Ducati 986 P3/4's) are overkill for the weight of the bike , a better master cylinder aids feel... but you don't have the luxury of braking on a smoker...
For reference I could match a reasonably well ridden big bang R1 around Kyalami and it was only for the corner speed where I would pull him back. Until it seized up through T1 changing up from 5th to 6th at 180 kph and high-sided me to the moon resulting in a titanium wrist and ankle......
But then again, seeing a young Brad Binder on his RS125 was a humbling experience.......
Edited by Steve Bass on Thursday 17th June 16:32
Steve Bass said:
Best you'll get out of the RS250 is 65 bhp and even as fun as it is, a 600 will annihilate it. The only advantage of the stroker is corner entry if the rider is able to use it.
You can carry (comparativly) huge corner speed, even changing up on full taps mid corner but once the road opens, a superbike will be gone.... ad for better brakes, that's anathema to the basic requirements of getting a stroker to hustle.... the RS's Bembo's (Ducati 986 P3/4's) are overkill for the weight of the bike , a better master cylinder aids feel... but you don't have the luxury of braking on a smoker...
For reference I could match a reasonably well ridden big bang R1 around Kyalami and it was only for the corner speed where I would pull him back. Until it seized up through T1 changing up from 5th to 6th at 180 kph and high-sided me to the moon resulting in a titanium wrist and ankle......
But then again, seeing a young Brad Binder on his RS125 was a humbling experience.......
The team I was in, at Brands one rider put his RS125 IIRC at about 10th respectively on the Superbike grid. When he came in the factory teams in the paddock all came out their garages and clapped. 125’s are epic, they made around 52-57HP on a good day and we had to lead the swingarams to make the minimum weight in various places. You can carry (comparativly) huge corner speed, even changing up on full taps mid corner but once the road opens, a superbike will be gone.... ad for better brakes, that's anathema to the basic requirements of getting a stroker to hustle.... the RS's Bembo's (Ducati 986 P3/4's) are overkill for the weight of the bike , a better master cylinder aids feel... but you don't have the luxury of braking on a smoker...
For reference I could match a reasonably well ridden big bang R1 around Kyalami and it was only for the corner speed where I would pull him back. Until it seized up through T1 changing up from 5th to 6th at 180 kph and high-sided me to the moon resulting in a titanium wrist and ankle......
But then again, seeing a young Brad Binder on his RS125 was a humbling experience.......
Edited by Steve Bass on Thursday 17th June 16:32
Edited by ddom on Friday 18th June 08:34
Steve Bass said:
BroadsRS6 said:
Fast strokers are patently really old now, but a few in my view are still worthy out there among the sport bike riders.
EG. Set up an Aprilia RS250 and let an experienced tuner get the best from it and add a set of expansion chambers and you have a very light bike with 70 bhp and a chassis still good enough. A set of better brake lines and pads and decent fluid gives you excellent stoppers. Get the suspension set up for your weight (not too much on a 250 hopefully) and you'll be there or there abouts on most public roads. Whilst avoiding the same 4 pot 4 stroke sound everyone else is making!
Best you'll get out of the RS250 is 65 bhp and even as fun as it is, a 600 will annihilate it. The only advantage of the stroker is corner entry if the rider is able to use it. EG. Set up an Aprilia RS250 and let an experienced tuner get the best from it and add a set of expansion chambers and you have a very light bike with 70 bhp and a chassis still good enough. A set of better brake lines and pads and decent fluid gives you excellent stoppers. Get the suspension set up for your weight (not too much on a 250 hopefully) and you'll be there or there abouts on most public roads. Whilst avoiding the same 4 pot 4 stroke sound everyone else is making!
Good brakes ARE vital on a 2 stroke because they don't have the engine braking a 4 stroke does.
Stan Stephens' son prepared a last version Aprilia RS250 for a client i met at The Ace Cafe a few years ago and it had circa 70 bhp and would do 150 mph on a good day. The brakes were mildly uprated and i had a real challenge to keep him honest on my (then) Ducati 851 through the Surrey lanes..
The point is that if you take a 4 stroke 250, you're not getting near that Aprilia. The same as i'd love to see someone come up with a 4 stroke 125 to get near my 40 bhp Cagiva.
Honda GP 125/5 cylinder. 4-stroke. A pure racing motorcycle. 5 cylinders. 23,000 rpm. 38 bhp. That was in the ultimate state of tune the RC149 got to.
My own tuned 125/ONE cylinder road bike. 2 stroke A peaky, admittedly, street bike. 40 bhp.
That shows how good the basic 2 stroke design is for power output. It's not like the 4 stroke had more torque either, with a pathetic 10 ft/lbs at 19,500 rpm.
Given that 2 strokes have had no research to talk of for decades they are clearly an incredibly efficient way of going fast.
My own tuned 125/ONE cylinder road bike. 2 stroke A peaky, admittedly, street bike. 40 bhp.
That shows how good the basic 2 stroke design is for power output. It's not like the 4 stroke had more torque either, with a pathetic 10 ft/lbs at 19,500 rpm.
Given that 2 strokes have had no research to talk of for decades they are clearly an incredibly efficient way of going fast.
BroadsRS6 said:
Honda GP 125/5 cylinder. 4-stroke. A pure racing motorcycle. 5 cylinders. 23,000 rpm. 38 bhp. That was in the ultimate state of tune the RC149 got to.
My own tuned 125/ONE cylinder road bike. 2 stroke A peaky, admittedly, street bike. 40 bhp.
That shows how good the basic 2 stroke design is for power output. It's not like the 4 stroke had more torque either, with a pathetic 10 ft/lbs at 19,500 rpm.
Given that 2 strokes have had no research to talk of for decades they are clearly an incredibly efficient way of going fast.
Imagine what a newly designed 250 2 stroke engine could produce with all of the modern tech if it had a big manufacturer put some real resource and time in to the developement with modern materials. Back when the RS250 was designed 100 per litre was very good for a normally aspirated car engine, now we can far exceed that and we have forced induction and modern fuel injection and management to play with.My own tuned 125/ONE cylinder road bike. 2 stroke A peaky, admittedly, street bike. 40 bhp.
That shows how good the basic 2 stroke design is for power output. It's not like the 4 stroke had more torque either, with a pathetic 10 ft/lbs at 19,500 rpm.
Given that 2 strokes have had no research to talk of for decades they are clearly an incredibly efficient way of going fast.
The last of the mk2 rs250 bikes if ridden well will not feel old, unless you ride like a prick your average speed on these will be much equivalent to a modern sports bike on todays road, the entry speed with the correct set up is astonishing . I changed out the front tire profile for a more modern tire on mine.
The rs250 is the most up to date 2 stroke 250 you can buy and the biggest with proper room to move about.
Are they overvalued ? Probably but as Srob pointed out there still not expensive compared to a new superbike and forget investment material there worth fook all if they let go
I sold mine last year because i couldnt be arsed wiping the dust of it. Even though there value is low 7-10k compared to modern stuff they become a chore and you feel obliged to give it more respect than its worth.
Bring out a new Rs 250 with 80 hp and modern electronics for 12k and i will buy one. When that day comes ( if ever) watch the old 2 stroke market disintegrate into where it belongs .
The rs250 is the most up to date 2 stroke 250 you can buy and the biggest with proper room to move about.
Are they overvalued ? Probably but as Srob pointed out there still not expensive compared to a new superbike and forget investment material there worth fook all if they let go
I sold mine last year because i couldnt be arsed wiping the dust of it. Even though there value is low 7-10k compared to modern stuff they become a chore and you feel obliged to give it more respect than its worth.
Bring out a new Rs 250 with 80 hp and modern electronics for 12k and i will buy one. When that day comes ( if ever) watch the old 2 stroke market disintegrate into where it belongs .
I will always love the fact that a 2 stroke engine is so much smaller, simpler and lighter than a same power 4 stroke motor. The inherent advantages it has cannot be denied. The noise is also just so different to what we are all used to.
I had a mint 1992 Honda CBR250RR with a 19,500 rpm rev limit and yes it was a beautiful engine. Incredibly, it would pull from 35 mph in top gear, albeit gently. But it wouldn't know which way an RG250 went, for example. That's even with gear driven cams, lightweight valve gear and a stroke smaller than a moped's!
I'd buy a modern stroker tomorrow.
I had a mint 1992 Honda CBR250RR with a 19,500 rpm rev limit and yes it was a beautiful engine. Incredibly, it would pull from 35 mph in top gear, albeit gently. But it wouldn't know which way an RG250 went, for example. That's even with gear driven cams, lightweight valve gear and a stroke smaller than a moped's!
I'd buy a modern stroker tomorrow.
mak said:
The last of the mk2 rs250 bikes if ridden well will not feel old, unless you ride like a prick your average speed on these will be much equivalent to a modern sports bike on todays road, the entry speed with the correct set up is astonishing . I changed out the front tire profile for a more modern tire on mine.
The rs250 is the most up to date 2 stroke 250 you can buy and the biggest with proper room to move about.
Are they overvalued ? Probably but as Srob pointed out there still not expensive compared to a new superbike and forget investment material there worth fook all if they let go
I sold mine last year because i couldnt be arsed wiping the dust of it. Even though there value is low 7-10k compared to modern stuff they become a chore and you feel obliged to give it more respect than its worth.
Bring out a new Rs 250 with 80 hp and modern electronics for 12k and i will buy one. When that day comes ( if ever) watch the old 2 stroke market disintegrate into where it belongs .
Suter MMX is making 195bhp from 576cc. So 338 bhp per litre. The rs250 is the most up to date 2 stroke 250 you can buy and the biggest with proper room to move about.
Are they overvalued ? Probably but as Srob pointed out there still not expensive compared to a new superbike and forget investment material there worth fook all if they let go
I sold mine last year because i couldnt be arsed wiping the dust of it. Even though there value is low 7-10k compared to modern stuff they become a chore and you feel obliged to give it more respect than its worth.
Bring out a new Rs 250 with 80 hp and modern electronics for 12k and i will buy one. When that day comes ( if ever) watch the old 2 stroke market disintegrate into where it belongs .
So why limit the bikes to the old capacity classes of 125/250/500??
Do as the superbikes are now (1100cc) and develop a 350/450 triple with an easy 110~120 bhp from decent quality efi and a good chassis.
I'd be at that in a heartbeat....
As for the RS, on the right day on the right road, amazing fun. But hard work. And fickle needing constant fettling and adjustment.
Mine has BST carbon wheels and decent suspension and transitions like a housefly
Fantastic to be on the throttle entering the corner rather than at the exit and keep winding it on as the lean angle increases....
And fantastic for reminding you about the conservation of momentum rather than the typical superbike point and shoot approach....
Doing a small run after 5 years of storage...
https://vimeo.com/531648465
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