BSB / WSB grids 2023
Discussion
slopes said:
…..the current Fireblade is like that. But's it’s funny how it doesn't seem to have done anything in WSBK or BSB/USA except in Superstock trim.
The Honda being the bike to be on in superstock, but not the bike for BSB or WSBK. It’s very odd. Really wonder why that is?It’ll be interesting to see how it goes in “pathway” spec next year, appears to work pretty well as a pathway bike. Franco Bourne getting his best result (6th) on a pathway spec bike….unexpected
Toprak to BMW has the potential for a very intriguing story for the 2024 season. Earlier in the year someone pointed out on here somewhere how the BMW goes well at the TT & BSB but not at WSB, Josh Brookes had just won a round on a BMW. It’s not panned out for BMW in the rest of the BSB season. With FHO looking to have lost their way with the bike. But Leon Haslam could have been a title contender if it wasn’t for some mechanical failures. Gerloff in WSBK has also at time put some quick laps in on the BMW, just doesn’t seem to have the race craft to run at the front dicing with the main show, Toprak, Rae & Bautista.
You get the impression from all the BMW riders when interviewed that the bike is very quick. Speed traps back that up. You’d also think BMW have potentially the deepest pockets of the manufacturers.
I can not wait for next season to see what Toprak can do on a BMW!
flatlandsman said:
But I am sure wel all would rather see him in MotoGP soon, he deserves to be there.
From the comments Guintoli made re. Toprak testing the M1, I think we can assume that isn't very likely to happen.Immensely talented on a homologation-based bike without a doubt but the style that he brings doesn't cut it on a prototype machine and the times etc. obviously showed that when he tested the M1 and very little was said about it afterwards.
Mortgage_tom said:
slopes said:
…..the current Fireblade is like that. But's it’s funny how it doesn't seem to have done anything in WSBK or BSB/USA except in Superstock trim.
The Honda being the bike to be on in superstock, but not the bike for BSB or WSBK. It’s very odd. Really wonder why that is?It’ll be interesting to see how it goes in “pathway” spec next year, appears to work pretty well as a pathway bike. Franco Bourne getting his best result (6th) on a pathway spec bike….unexpected
Toprak to BMW has the potential for a very intriguing story for the 2024 season. Earlier in the year someone pointed out on here somewhere how the BMW goes well at the TT & BSB but not at WSB, Josh Brookes had just won a round on a BMW. It’s not panned out for BMW in the rest of the BSB season. With FHO looking to have lost their way with the bike. But Leon Haslam could have been a title contender if it wasn’t for some mechanical failures. Gerloff in WSBK has also at time put some quick laps in on the BMW, just doesn’t seem to have the race craft to run at the front dicing with the main show, Toprak, Rae & Bautista.
You get the impression from all the BMW riders when interviewed that the bike is very quick. Speed traps back that up. You’d also think BMW have potentially the deepest pockets of the manufacturers.
I can not wait for next season to see what Toprak can do on a BMW!
Mortgage_tom said:
slopes said:
…..the current Fireblade is like that. But's it’s funny how it doesn't seem to have done anything in WSBK or BSB/USA except in Superstock trim.
The Honda being the bike to be on in superstock, but not the bike for BSB or WSBK. It’s very odd. Really wonder why that is?It’ll be interesting to see how it goes in “pathway” spec next year, appears to work pretty well as a pathway bike. Franco Bourne getting his best result (6th) on a pathway spec bike….unexpected
When you convert it to Pathway or SBK Spec, that advantage is obviously lost as they both run on Motec systems
Franco did really well to get that bike in 6th, but given the Pathway bike runs a standard motor on Motec, the power delivery is likely to be way better in the wet than a full SBK motor
For WSBK, like BSB, they do away with the HRC electronics and fit a Magneti Marelli ECU as per the other WSBK team (other than BMW) as that has way more functions than the HRC KIT system
roboxm3 said:
Mortgage_tom said:
slopes said:
…..the current Fireblade is like that. But's it’s funny how it doesn't seem to have done anything in WSBK or BSB/USA except in Superstock trim.
The Honda being the bike to be on in superstock, but not the bike for BSB or WSBK. It’s very odd. Really wonder why that is?It’ll be interesting to see how it goes in “pathway” spec next year, appears to work pretty well as a pathway bike. Franco Bourne getting his best result (6th) on a pathway spec bike….unexpected
Toprak to BMW has the potential for a very intriguing story for the 2024 season. Earlier in the year someone pointed out on here somewhere how the BMW goes well at the TT & BSB but not at WSB, Josh Brookes had just won a round on a BMW. It’s not panned out for BMW in the rest of the BSB season. With FHO looking to have lost their way with the bike. But Leon Haslam could have been a title contender if it wasn’t for some mechanical failures. Gerloff in WSBK has also at time put some quick laps in on the BMW, just doesn’t seem to have the race craft to run at the front dicing with the main show, Toprak, Rae & Bautista.
You get the impression from all the BMW riders when interviewed that the bike is very quick. Speed traps back that up. You’d also think BMW have potentially the deepest pockets of the manufacturers.
I can not wait for next season to see what Toprak can do on a BMW!
After all, he's not stupid and doesn't need cash, so must be going there confident that whatever they're changing can mean he can run at the front on that bike, which it's reasonable to say that at the moment, he couldn't run at the front for a full race on the BMW
I am fairly confident that given enough time and time to adjust a bike to his talent Toprak would be perfectly able to do well on a GP bike. Most top level Superbike guys could, back through the yeras, sadly not many were given a big or long enough chance, despite impressing at times even when they were.
flatlandsman said:
I am fairly confident that given enough time and time to adjust a bike to his talent Toprak would be perfectly able to do well on a GP bike. Most top level Superbike guys could, back through the yeras, sadly not many were given a big or long enough chance, despite impressing at times even when they were.
Toprak won’t be going Gp , end of.flatlandsman said:
I am fairly confident that given enough time and time to adjust a bike to his talent Toprak would be perfectly able to do well on a GP bike. Most top level Superbike guys could, back through the yeras, sadly not many were given a big or long enough chance, despite impressing at times even when they were.
Very possibly but given the fact that not all riders brought up on prototype bikes make the grade, he’d likely need far too long for anyone to take that chance…as Guintoli said, GP bikes work with the wheels in line in a very very narrow window, try to twist it up and it’ll spit you off, pretty much the polar opposite of Toprak’s approach!!roboxm3 said:
flatlandsman said:
I am fairly confident that given enough time and time to adjust a bike to his talent Toprak would be perfectly able to do well on a GP bike. Most top level Superbike guys could, back through the yeras, sadly not many were given a big or long enough chance, despite impressing at times even when they were.
Very possibly but given the fact that not all riders brought up on prototype bikes make the grade, he’d likely need far too long for anyone to take that chance…as Guintoli said, GP bikes work with the wheels in line in a very very narrow window, try to twist it up and it’ll spit you off, pretty much the polar opposite of Toprak’s approach!!A GP bike needs to be ridden like a 300bhp 600, with both wheels in line and lots of corner speed
Toprak's style is the exact opposite with hard braking and low mid corner speed, and he then stands the bike up and drives it out
That's not to say he couldn't adapt, but it'd take a long time, and not sure either him or any team would want to take a punt on that not panning out when they have several very fast moto 2 kids coming through that have grown up only riding prototype bikes and could adapt pretty quickly
All fair points, but I do think a lot of you under rate pure talent, something he has more of than most.
I realise the reasons why he stays, mainly due to Kenan being anti GP due to his experience there I think, I also do not really think one test is anywhere near enough to value or rate a rider with the kind of prodigious talent he has. Marquez could do insane things on a GP bike after being raised entirely on other GP bikes, so why not someone else
I realise the reasons why he stays, mainly due to Kenan being anti GP due to his experience there I think, I also do not really think one test is anywhere near enough to value or rate a rider with the kind of prodigious talent he has. Marquez could do insane things on a GP bike after being raised entirely on other GP bikes, so why not someone else
slopes said:
I always remember what Roger Burnett said years ago, if it wasn’t for traction control, the likes of Pedrosa and Stoner would get high sided into next year and i think with the modern MotoGP bikes, this applies even more so.
Stoner was incredible on a bike. If anything he preferred the idea of zero rider aids. BMW will never go to GO they are committed to their own Superbikes and are currently spending a bunch on WEC and GT3, the S1000 is a good selling bike and is clearly a very good road bike, if they were going to GP they would have done it a long time ago when Ezpeleta was courting them far more than he is now.
LF5335 said:
slopes said:
I always remember what Roger Burnett said years ago, if it wasn’t for traction control, the likes of Pedrosa and Stoner would get high sided into next year and i think with the modern MotoGP bikes, this applies even more so.
Stoner was incredible on a bike. If anything he preferred the idea of zero rider aids. But yes he was an incredible rider and the same gors for Toprak, i’ve long said he is arguably the best rider on the grid as he keeps Bautista honest despite the advantage of the Ducati.
As much as Bautista's weight has it's advantages, it's not like Rinaldi set the world on fire on the same bike, and he's not exactly massive like TR or Redding
Bautista's skill set combined with that bike's characteristics combined, are what makes him unreal, and adding a few KG here and there isn't going to make any difference at all
Bullega coming up from WSS might give him a run for his money though as he's a class act
Bautista's skill set combined with that bike's characteristics combined, are what makes him unreal, and adding a few KG here and there isn't going to make any difference at all
Bullega coming up from WSS might give him a run for his money though as he's a class act
slopes said:
He was but look at the year he was on the Honda 990, he spent most of the year throwing into the scenery.
But yes he was an incredible rider and the same gors for Toprak, i’ve long said he is arguably the best rider on the grid as he keeps Bautista honest despite the advantage of the Ducati.
Do you mean his first season in MotoGP? If so, great selective choice, ignore him winning the title in his second year and his first with Ducati and his second title that he won with Honda a few years later after resolving his health issues. But yes he was an incredible rider and the same gors for Toprak, i’ve long said he is arguably the best rider on the grid as he keeps Bautista honest despite the advantage of the Ducati.
flatlandsman said:
BMW will never go to GO they are committed to their own Superbikes and are currently spending a bunch on WEC and GT3, the S1000 is a good selling bike and is clearly a very good road bike, if they were going to GP they would have done it a long time ago when Ezpeleta was courting them far more than he is now.
Why not? There is intense rivalry between German motor manufacturers, where you find one dominating it does not take long for another to join inflatlandsman said:
All fair points, but I do think a lot of you under rate pure talent, something he has more of than most.
I realise the reasons why he stays, mainly due to Kenan being anti GP due to his experience there I think, I also do not really think one test is anywhere near enough to value or rate a rider with the kind of prodigious talent he has. Marquez could do insane things on a GP bike after being raised entirely on other GP bikes, so why not someone else
I think Toprak’s ability to peddle a bike is something else…but it’s his style that, I think, does and would hold him back on a GP bike and you’ve almost supported the counter argument with the Marquez example, the point being a GP bike is a rigid, fickle and unforgiving thing and if you can tame one, you’ve got a chance of taming another…they’re chalk & cheese Vs. a homologation bike…I realise the reasons why he stays, mainly due to Kenan being anti GP due to his experience there I think, I also do not really think one test is anywhere near enough to value or rate a rider with the kind of prodigious talent he has. Marquez could do insane things on a GP bike after being raised entirely on other GP bikes, so why not someone else
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