Moto GP Thread 2023

[LF5335]

Biker's Nemesis said:

But Honda's are crap!

That’s never been in doubt and definitely been the case for the past 30 years at least.

[hiccy18]

Honda aren't going to put the best bike on the grid next year, but if they did, Joan Mir would be world champion; Zarco might argue with that!

[Yazza54]

hiccy18 said:

Honda aren't going to put the best bike on the grid next year, but if they did, Joan Mir would be world champion; Zarco might argue with that!

[Zarco]

Ciabatti to leave Ducati MotoGP team. He's going to their motocross programme apparently (I didn't know they even made a motocross bike).

[Freakuk]

Probably speaking out of turn here, I'd say either Marquez's riding style requires such an extreme bike that it's so far from the norm no-one can ride it, or he just cannot develop a bike - he doesn't need to as he has that much raw talent. This is possibly why Honda have ended up in such a hole, they've either just sat on their laurels and know they have a unique talent that can ride almost anything, or they've listened to Marc and built a bike so extreme it's trying to kill everyone.

With Marc gone they have 3 riders who are good development riders, plus Bradl and they have a constant in Taka to compare against, let alone all of the engineers and back room staff they have recruited. 2024 will be a development year for them and from the sounds of it they're on the right path. If they make sufficient progress in 2024 you would have to question would Honda want Marc back?

Edited by Freakuk on Friday 22 December 13:25

[epom]

Freakuk said:

Probably speaking out of turn here, I'd say either Marquez's riding style requires such an extreme bike that it's so far from the norm no-one can ride it, or he just cannot develop a bike - he doesn't need to as he has that much raw talent. This is possibly why Honda have ended up in such a whole, they've either just sat on their laurels and know they have a unique talent that can ride almost anything, or they've listened to Marc and built a bike so extreme it's trying to kill everyone.

With Marc gone they have 3 riders who are good development riders, plus Bradl and they have a constant in Taka to compare against, let alone all of the engineers and back room staff they have recruited. 2024 will be a development year for them and from the sounds of it they're on the right path. If they make sufficient progress in 2024 you would have to question would Honda want Marc back?

If he's world champion probably

[LF5335]

Freakuk said:

Probably speaking out of turn here, I'd say either Marquez's riding style requires such an extreme bike that it's so far from the norm no-one can ride it, or he just cannot develop a bike - he doesn't need to as he has that much raw talent. This is possibly why Honda have ended up in such a whole, they've either just sat on their laurels and know they have a unique talent that can ride almost anything, or they've listened to Marc and built a bike so extreme it's trying to kill everyone.

With Marc gone they have 3 riders who are good development riders, plus Bradl and they have a constant in Taka to compare against, let alone all of the engineers and back room staff they have recruited. 2024 will be a development year for them and from the sounds of it they're on the right path. If they make sufficient progress in 2024 you would have to question would Honda want Marc back?

For that to make sense then Marquez would have had to be part of the development as a rider when he was injured and recovering form one of his many operations and also to have asked them to build a bike that even he can’t ride.

Seems a bit of a stretch.

[gareth_r]

Zarco said:

Ciabatti to leave Ducati MotoGP team. He's going to their motocross programme apparently (I didn't know they even made a motocross bike).

They don't.

Or, rather, you can't buy one yet. They are running a World Championship team next year, as are Triumph.

[Zarco]

gareth_r said:

Zarco said:

Ciabatti to leave Ducati MotoGP team. He's going to their motocross programme apparently (I didn't know they even made a motocross bike).

They don't.

Or, rather, you can't buy one yet. They are running a World Championship team next year, as are Triumph.

Yeah I read another article where it said they are doing Italian Motocross next year then World Motox 2026.

[Freakuk]

LF5335 said:

Freakuk said:

Probably speaking out of turn here, I'd say either Marquez's riding style requires such an extreme bike that it's so far from the norm no-one can ride it, or he just cannot develop a bike - he doesn't need to as he has that much raw talent. This is possibly why Honda have ended up in such a whole, they've either just sat on their laurels and know they have a unique talent that can ride almost anything, or they've listened to Marc and built a bike so extreme it's trying to kill everyone.

With Marc gone they have 3 riders who are good development riders, plus Bradl and they have a constant in Taka to compare against, let alone all of the engineers and back room staff they have recruited. 2024 will be a development year for them and from the sounds of it they're on the right path. If they make sufficient progress in 2024 you would have to question would Honda want Marc back?

For that to make sense then Marquez would have had to be part of the development as a rider when he was injured and recovering form one of his many operations and also to have asked them to build a bike that even he can’t ride.

Seems a bit of a stretch.

Honda were left with no choice to base their development on Bradl, Pol's input, so they ended up getting their knickers in a twist because now they had to listen to someone else, those views were wildly different to what Marc had been asking for. This is where the Honda story unravelled.

[LF5335]

Freakuk said:

LF5335 said:

Freakuk said:

Probably speaking out of turn here, I'd say either Marquez's riding style requires such an extreme bike that it's so far from the norm no-one can ride it, or he just cannot develop a bike - he doesn't need to as he has that much raw talent. This is possibly why Honda have ended up in such a whole, they've either just sat on their laurels and know they have a unique talent that can ride almost anything, or they've listened to Marc and built a bike so extreme it's trying to kill everyone.

With Marc gone they have 3 riders who are good development riders, plus Bradl and they have a constant in Taka to compare against, let alone all of the engineers and back room staff they have recruited. 2024 will be a development year for them and from the sounds of it they're on the right path. If they make sufficient progress in 2024 you would have to question would Honda want Marc back?

For that to make sense then Marquez would have had to be part of the development as a rider when he was injured and recovering form one of his many operations and also to have asked them to build a bike that even he can’t ride.

Seems a bit of a stretch.

Honda were left with no choice to base their development on Bradl, Pol's input, so they ended up getting their knickers in a twist because now they had to listen to someone else, those views were wildly different to what Marc had been asking for. This is where the Honda story unravelled.

That’s completely different to you initial claim that Marquez and either his riding style or his inability to develop a bike are the reason for Honda’s woes.

[flatlandsman]

I dont think it matters what Marquez does, he is the kind of guy that rides the bike and adjusts naturally to what it does, I think he is one of those few riders who simply asks "get it close and I will do the rest"

It is clear after his injury development went off a cliff and was not good.

[LF5335]

Stoner’s take on the current MotoGP bikes and rules. I’m sure some will be unable to see past the moaner nickname, others might actually think he’s got a bloody good point.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/1041587/1/casey-...

[epom]

Indeed one paragraph sums it up…..

“We don’t need champion engineers. We need champion riders. Let them show what they’re capable of doing. At the moment, the engineers’ control everything they do.“

[Stan the Bat]

LF5335 said:

Stoner’s take on the current MotoGP bikes and rules. I’m sure some will be unable to see past the moaner nickname, others might actually think he’s got a bloody good point.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/1041587/1/casey-...

I agree with him, the trouble is once this type of technology appears, it seems to stay.

[flatlandsman]

You cannot really deny tech, but you can control it to a certain extent.

I do not really see aero ever becoming a big part of most bikers daily lives so I would like to see it got rid of, it is a massively unnecessary expense.

it hardly has anything to do with the vast majority of road riding as sports bikes now are nowhere near the best sellers!

[520TORQUES]

Every bike has aero, the rules define the extent of what that encompasses. The teams will always spend fortunes on marginal gains within those regulations.

[graeme4130]

flatlandsman said:

You cannot really deny tech, but you can control it to a certain extent.

I do not really see aero ever becoming a big part of most bikers daily lives so I would like to see it got rid of, it is a massively unnecessary expense.

it hardly has anything to do with the vast majority of road riding as sports bikes now are nowhere near the best sellers!

You're absolutely right, but the same can be said for Cars and it's hard to argue that F1 isn't great because of the Aero and the fact that they look nothing like road cars. The top class is any motorsport needs to be super fast and something so out of reach of the common rider/driver that they watch it just to see how fast it is
WSBK is basically what the road rider watches and feels he can do to some extent, GP needs to be a whole level above that (even if the lap times aren't so far off, in reality)

The downside of this is that Aero/data becomes a spending game, and Ducati's wallet has ensured they have enough bikes on the grid, and a big enough data team, to effectively always be a few steps ahead of Aprilia/KTM when it comes to amassing marginal gains by constant analysis of variation and adaptations. Having the ability to compute all these things with so many bikes effectively gives them twice as much testing time as KTM/Aprilia and even more so for Honda and Ducati

The fairest way for Dorna to tackle this would be to put a limit on the amount of bikes each manufacturer could field, and balance things up.
In reality, this will never happen in a fair manner, as like Ferarri had with F1 for so many years, Ducati have enough influence and power over Dorna to ensure they always have a competitive edge. I can't see either Aprilia or KTM stepping up in the way that McLaren and Redbull did in F1 to compete with the red machines

The sad reality for GP is that Internal Combustion engines are on Borrowed time over the next decade, and a capacity reduction is just the start

BSB and WSBK will go to smaller capacity bikes in the next 5 years too, and the next generation Supersport bikes will become the top class

[flatlandsman]

My point here is that aero is a very recent thing in relative terms for bikes. Many things were tried over recent decades to try and change the aero styles and find an advantage, most might recall the weird front end Hopkins used in the Faster videos, that did not go very far, John Mockett and KR had several attempts to try and fine something none of which worked.

It seems that the higher speeds of modern bikes and the electronics have made it easier for far smaller aero stuff to make a considerable difference.

This will have no real impact on road riding at least not legal road riding.

Some of it has a very minor influence in cars and car design, but not really wings, so I do see the comparison.

But aero ion cars go more together I think, on bikes it is only really a part of bikes at very high speeds and when you are really truly pushing them very hard, aero in a car be it wind cheating bodies or certain wings can influence a car at legal speeds a little more. Plus it is also a design feature, and has been for 40 or more years, it really is not a part of bike design at all until very recently, other than with fairings.

[520TORQUES]

Aero has played a part in bike racing since day 1.

What you are referring to is downforce generating aero, the rules specify what can be done there.
Take the current drag inducing aero off the bikes and they will be going faster down the straights