Discussion
carlo996 said:
aeropilot said:
The indications, and articles mid-season last, was that the Japanese way of refusing to head-hunt non-Japanese engineers from any of the European teams was massively impacting Honda's ability to play catch-up (and was a significant reason why MM bailed out).
They will do it their way or not at all it seems.
It’s a cultural thing. You’ve only got to look at Japanese porn to know that they carve their own path They will do it their way or not at all it seems.
Turn7 said:
carlo996 said:
I’d wager HRC are looking at GP and thinking it’s not that valuable tbh. Bike sales aren’t driven by success on the track, and they have far more revenue in the car market.
I agreeYazza54 said:
Turn7 said:
carlo996 said:
I’d wager HRC are looking at GP and thinking it’s not that valuable tbh. Bike sales aren’t driven by success on the track, and they have far more revenue in the car market.
I agreeTurn7 said:
Yazza54 said:
Turn7 said:
carlo996 said:
I’d wager HRC are looking at GP and thinking it’s not that valuable tbh. Bike sales aren’t driven by success on the track, and they have far more revenue in the car market.
I agreeYazza54 said:
Turn7 said:
Yazza54 said:
Turn7 said:
carlo996 said:
I’d wager HRC are looking at GP and thinking it’s not that valuable tbh. Bike sales aren’t driven by success on the track, and they have far more revenue in the car market.
I agreebolidemichael said:
It’s deeply ingrained in their company culture to solve the engineering challenge via in house means and then use the engineering know how to benefit across the business. The Honda F1 engine turned a corner with input from both the motorcycling and aviation departments. The process can be slow but it can also be robust and not tied to maverick engineers or designers.
It's sometimes the "maverick engineers" who bring out of the box thinking though, and while that doesn't sit well with Japanese corporate culture it can be innovative and disruptive whereas the Japanese way is lots of little improvements rather than a big bang change. European manufacturers seem more willing to take risks with their bikes to move them forwards and if Honda think they can keep making small improvements it's going to take years for them to be competitive again. It's very sad to see 3 of the 4 bikes crash and the 4th come last though, it's not good for the sport and it's not good for Honda!
bolidemichael said:
It’s deeply ingrained in their company culture to solve the engineering challenge via in house means and then use the engineering know how to benefit across the business. The Honda F1 engine turned a corner with input from both the motorcycling and aviation departments. The process can be slow but it can also be robust and not tied to maverick engineers or designers.
The F1 engine was sorted by a European ex Mercedes engineer.Japanese companies run on the principle of "Kaizen" or gradual improvement. They rarely make huge changes or open themselves to external direction. It's not a Honda thing, it's a Japanese thing....
They are clearly in trouble with their best bike being 29 seconds slower than last year with everyone else improving but they will dig deeper and keep chugging on. I really don't see them just throwing in the towel in the midst of this performance slump....
And if they do seek external intervention, it will be a closely secretive and protected action as the loss of face would be catastrophic for every part of the organisation..... until you have worked with them it's hard to explain the reality. ..
They are clearly in trouble with their best bike being 29 seconds slower than last year with everyone else improving but they will dig deeper and keep chugging on. I really don't see them just throwing in the towel in the midst of this performance slump....
And if they do seek external intervention, it will be a closely secretive and protected action as the loss of face would be catastrophic for every part of the organisation..... until you have worked with them it's hard to explain the reality. ..
732NM said:
bolidemichael said:
It’s deeply ingrained in their company culture to solve the engineering challenge via in house means and then use the engineering know how to benefit across the business. The Honda F1 engine turned a corner with input from both the motorcycling and aviation departments. The process can be slow but it can also be robust and not tied to maverick engineers or designers.
The F1 engine was sorted by a European ex Mercedes engineer. Asaki-san_Head of Power Unit Development said:
"You may be aware that a part of what helped us solve those problems back then was the cooperation with Honda Jet. As I mentioned Honda Motor has helped us with various different points, but one of the points I’d like to mention is a cylinder sleeve plating, produced by our plant in Kumamoto - it’s called the Kumamoto plating. The Kumamoto plant is actually a motorbike factory, but within Honda there’s a substantial amount of collaboration between the two-wheel production and four-wheel production areas."
Johno said:
Updating the '23 Ducati is an issue with Gresini not having enough techs on hand to support the updates the factory could give them, so not sure it's a Ducati issue, more an independent teams scale and resources issue. From what I've heard/read.
I think you've hit the nail on the head here, Gresini are the lowest rung of the Ducati chain a real privateer team, and I am guessing it's a cost thing with either spares, techs, etc so they have to accept and race with what they have. But the GP '23 was a great bike even in it's early iterations, with Marc on it as we have already seen it is a competitive package and able to run at the front.It's just unfortunate he had a brake issue and I still think he's not riding it the way it needs to be ridden, it took Alex quite a while before it clicked with him.
As for the race, Vinales shone so bright, unless he's got clear track he's never been a fighter so something has changed mentally and it's good to see. The cynic in me says it's contract time and he's upped his game, I really hope to be proven wrong because when he's on form he's unstoppable and he could have easily done the double at Portimao also. Clearly Aprilia have found something and the new brake/clutch system they have on his bike is working well also.
Marc had a great race, but I do think he was trying to hard... he knew he had a chance and he wanted to return to being the king of COTA (who wouldn't), but maybe his aggression caused his brake issues with the multiple clashes. Regardless he will see it as a positive race and be thankful he's off the Honda if nothing else.
Acosta, well he just seems completely at home in the big class, and he is a fast learner, very clever/instinctive rider. Each race so far he has taken a huge step in my eyes, tyre management at the first round for example, he's figured it out already. This kid is the new alien and we're only seeing the beginning of this journey, the worry is once all of the pieces are in place he will just bugger off at the front, Herve must be loving it but we all know KTM will want to get him in Orange sooner rather than later to milk him for every penny.
Honda.... they just seem so lost, I know developing a bike isn't going to happen overnight but 3 DNF's and only Marini getting to finish at the back of the field must be so demoralising for them. It's going to be an extremely long year for them (and Yamaha), Given Mir's and Taka's contracts are up this year I cannot see them wanting to stay there, Taka surely is looking at retirement, but who else wants to ride the thing? As for Mir, I doubt he has any other option on the table, maybe a switch to Trackhouse at best or he's looking at WSBK.
The rumour mill seems to suggest BMW may be looking to enter the class when the new regs come it, that would be brilliant for the class to have another manufacturer on board, but we all know how long it takes a manufacturer to perform well at this level with all of the tech. Hopefully the new regs will take a step back to make it more enticing.
Steve Bass said:
Japanese companies run on the principle of "Kaizen" or gradual improvement. They rarely make huge changes or open themselves to external direction. It's not a Honda thing, it's a Japanese thing....
They are clearly in trouble with their best bike being 29 seconds slower than last year with everyone else improving but they will dig deeper and keep chugging on. I really don't see them just throwing in the towel in the midst of this performance slump....
And if they do seek external intervention, it will be a closely secretive and protected action as the loss of face would be catastrophic for every part of the organisation..... until you have worked with them it's hard to explain the reality. ..
HRC did have Suter make them swing arms last year. Was no secret.They are clearly in trouble with their best bike being 29 seconds slower than last year with everyone else improving but they will dig deeper and keep chugging on. I really don't see them just throwing in the towel in the midst of this performance slump....
And if they do seek external intervention, it will be a closely secretive and protected action as the loss of face would be catastrophic for every part of the organisation..... until you have worked with them it's hard to explain the reality. ..
Don't think they actually used them though!
Freakuk said:
Acosta, well he just seems completely at home in the big class, and he is a fast learner, very clever/instinctive rider. Each race so far he has taken a huge step in my eyes, tyre management at the first round for example, he's figured it out already. This kid is the new alien and we're only seeing the beginning of this journey, the worry is once all of the pieces are in place he will just bugger off at the front, Herve must be loving it but we all know KTM will want to get him in Orange sooner rather than later to milk him for every penny.
.
I was reading yet another story about Miller and Acosta and the riders contracts say they can swap teams at any time (Miller on shaky ground!!!11) and I think it said that Acosta is on a "works" bike. Pit Bierer or someone has said they won't be swapping riders between teams and that made me wonder about the association of Acosta with Gas Gas, being a spanish rider on a, ahem, "spanish" bike and the huge boost to the profile of the Gas Gas brand it is..
Similarly with Yamaha and Honda staying in MotoGP, it's a huge marketing vehicle in South-East Asia. To the extent that the factory Yamaha and Honda riders have Bahasa Indonesia phrases on their leathers - Satu Hati (Honda) and Semakan di Depan (Yamaha).
bolidemichael said:
Agreed. After his injury woes and humility to jump from a prestigious manufacturer to a customer team, it seems as though a redemption story is on the cards.
I am sure he will win a few races this season. I can't see him being up there in the championship (I hope I am wrong) because I foresee to many non finishes.I think he'll do more than enough to be on a better bike for next season though.
I tend to agree MM93 will be a contender. But the championship is already a long way off (44points).
The worrying thing is that the gap between the ‘23 Ducati and the ‘24 bike is sooo big. The ‘24 bike isn’t settled yet, chatter issues and clearly not all the riders are on final base settings for a season. Takes time at the start of the season to find that base etc.
Which begs the question, where the heck are all the other ‘23 Ducati riders after MM93? Makes his performances so far this year more impressive. Bez nowhere, Digi not doing much better, Morbidelli (‘24 Ducati) struggling, A Marquez has flashes of speed only …. I can see MM93 almost overriding the ‘23 bike to keep up, which could go well, or not.
Acosta is just incredible and I hope he does win one this year.
The worrying thing is that the gap between the ‘23 Ducati and the ‘24 bike is sooo big. The ‘24 bike isn’t settled yet, chatter issues and clearly not all the riders are on final base settings for a season. Takes time at the start of the season to find that base etc.
Which begs the question, where the heck are all the other ‘23 Ducati riders after MM93? Makes his performances so far this year more impressive. Bez nowhere, Digi not doing much better, Morbidelli (‘24 Ducati) struggling, A Marquez has flashes of speed only …. I can see MM93 almost overriding the ‘23 bike to keep up, which could go well, or not.
Acosta is just incredible and I hope he does win one this year.
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