Discussion
Turn7 said:
My understanding of the 23 Ducks is that Bastia took most of last year to find the settings , and Bez is in that boat , and Frankie missed all the winter testing ….
Alex maybe fast but he’s not Marc.
Exactly.Alex maybe fast but he’s not Marc.
Looks like Digi doesn't gel with the 2023 Ducati like he did with the 2022 (or he's just going to take 3/4 of the season to find a setting again).
I'm not surprised to see Marc significantly out performing others on the same bike. He always has.
Johno said:
I tend to agree MM93 will be a contender. But the championship is already a long way off (44points).
The worrying thing is that the gap between the ‘23 Ducati and the ‘24 bike is sooo big. The ‘24 bike isn’t settled yet, chatter issues and clearly not all the riders are on final base settings for a season. Takes time at the start of the season to find that base etc.
Which begs the question, where the heck are all the other ‘23 Ducati riders after MM93? Makes his performances so far this year more impressive. Bez nowhere, Digi not doing much better, Morbidelli (‘24 Ducati) struggling, A Marquez has flashes of speed only …. I can see MM93 almost overriding the ‘23 bike to keep up, which could go well, or not.
Acosta is just incredible and I hope he does win one this year.
I disagree, there is no question being begged, none of the other GP23 riders come close to MM93 for talent. At no point has any team mate eclipsed MM93, the only one that came close to competing was Dani. You know that, despite what the haters may have said for the last couple of seasons, Marc is a Generational Talent. None of the other riders of his generation are, and the previous generation Talents were beaten, and have retired.The worrying thing is that the gap between the ‘23 Ducati and the ‘24 bike is sooo big. The ‘24 bike isn’t settled yet, chatter issues and clearly not all the riders are on final base settings for a season. Takes time at the start of the season to find that base etc.
Which begs the question, where the heck are all the other ‘23 Ducati riders after MM93? Makes his performances so far this year more impressive. Bez nowhere, Digi not doing much better, Morbidelli (‘24 Ducati) struggling, A Marquez has flashes of speed only …. I can see MM93 almost overriding the ‘23 bike to keep up, which could go well, or not.
Acosta is just incredible and I hope he does win one this year.
Pedro Acosta is another Generational Talent, and that's exciting as it's likely that Marc will retire, beaten. Hopefully he has a couple of seasons with top equipment to do battle with.
I'm quite pleased that I managed to avoid sarcasm in this post, it was a challenge.
Edited by hiccy18 on Thursday 18th April 21:38
hiccy18 said:
Johno said:
I tend to agree MM93 will be a contender. But the championship is already a long way off (44points).
The worrying thing is that the gap between the ‘23 Ducati and the ‘24 bike is sooo big. The ‘24 bike isn’t settled yet, chatter issues and clearly not all the riders are on final base settings for a season. Takes time at the start of the season to find that base etc.
Which begs the question, where the heck are all the other ‘23 Ducati riders after MM93? Makes his performances so far this year more impressive. Bez nowhere, Digi not doing much better, Morbidelli (‘24 Ducati) struggling, A Marquez has flashes of speed only …. I can see MM93 almost overriding the ‘23 bike to keep up, which could go well, or not.
Acosta is just incredible and I hope he does win one this year.
I disagree, there is no question being begged, none of the other GP23 riders come close to MM93 for talent. At no point has any team mate eclipsed MM93, the only one that came close to competing was Dani. You know that, despite what the haters may have said for the last couple of seasons, Marc is a Generational Talent. None of the other riders of his generation are, and the previous generation Talents were beaten, and have retired.The worrying thing is that the gap between the ‘23 Ducati and the ‘24 bike is sooo big. The ‘24 bike isn’t settled yet, chatter issues and clearly not all the riders are on final base settings for a season. Takes time at the start of the season to find that base etc.
Which begs the question, where the heck are all the other ‘23 Ducati riders after MM93? Makes his performances so far this year more impressive. Bez nowhere, Digi not doing much better, Morbidelli (‘24 Ducati) struggling, A Marquez has flashes of speed only …. I can see MM93 almost overriding the ‘23 bike to keep up, which could go well, or not.
Acosta is just incredible and I hope he does win one this year.
Pedro Acosta is another Generational Talent, and that's exciting as it's likely that Marc will retire, beaten. Hopefully he has a couple of seasons with top equipment to do battle with.
I'm quite pleased that I managed to avoid sarcasm in this post, it was a challenge.
Edited by hiccy18 on Thursday 18th April 21:38
All that to one side, it's currently producing great spectacle and drama for the armchair fan. Long may it continue
hiccy18 said:
Johno said:
I tend to agree MM93 will be a contender. But the championship is already a long way off (44points).
The worrying thing is that the gap between the ‘23 Ducati and the ‘24 bike is sooo big. The ‘24 bike isn’t settled yet, chatter issues and clearly not all the riders are on final base settings for a season. Takes time at the start of the season to find that base etc.
Which begs the question, where the heck are all the other ‘23 Ducati riders after MM93? Makes his performances so far this year more impressive. Bez nowhere, Digi not doing much better, Morbidelli (‘24 Ducati) struggling, A Marquez has flashes of speed only …. I can see MM93 almost overriding the ‘23 bike to keep up, which could go well, or not.
Acosta is just incredible and I hope he does win one this year.
I disagree, there is no question being begged, none of the other GP23 riders come close to MM93 for talent. At no point has any team mate eclipsed MM93, the only one that came close to competing was Dani. You know that, despite what the haters may have said for the last couple of seasons, Marc is a Generational Talent. None of the other riders of his generation are, and the previous generation Talents were beaten, and have retired.The worrying thing is that the gap between the ‘23 Ducati and the ‘24 bike is sooo big. The ‘24 bike isn’t settled yet, chatter issues and clearly not all the riders are on final base settings for a season. Takes time at the start of the season to find that base etc.
Which begs the question, where the heck are all the other ‘23 Ducati riders after MM93? Makes his performances so far this year more impressive. Bez nowhere, Digi not doing much better, Morbidelli (‘24 Ducati) struggling, A Marquez has flashes of speed only …. I can see MM93 almost overriding the ‘23 bike to keep up, which could go well, or not.
Acosta is just incredible and I hope he does win one this year.
Pedro Acosta is another Generational Talent, and that's exciting as it's likely that Marc will retire, beaten. Hopefully he has a couple of seasons with top equipment to do battle with.
I'm quite pleased that I managed to avoid sarcasm in this post, it was a challenge.
Edited by hiccy18 on Thursday 18th April 21:38
I don’t disagree for a second that MM93 is a generational talent, Acosta also, again reinforcing their performances are so outstanding when others on the same machinery are struggling, Aliens again.
So is it really just talent, or is the 24 Ducati so much better then the 23?
Ah.
You'll recall, in previous seasons Ducati wheeled the bikes out of their box on a Tuesday morning in Valencia and into the satellite boxes. With the GP23's, they stripped off all of last seasons development parts, so engineered a years worth of gap between the machines, and with a further gap to come during the season. I think you're right in your assessment that when they get on top of the chatter issues, Pecco, Jorge and Enea will fly, and I believe even Marc will struggle to stay on pace towards the end of the season, Philip Island excepted.
You'll recall, in previous seasons Ducati wheeled the bikes out of their box on a Tuesday morning in Valencia and into the satellite boxes. With the GP23's, they stripped off all of last seasons development parts, so engineered a years worth of gap between the machines, and with a further gap to come during the season. I think you're right in your assessment that when they get on top of the chatter issues, Pecco, Jorge and Enea will fly, and I believe even Marc will struggle to stay on pace towards the end of the season, Philip Island excepted.
bolidemichael said:
732NM said:
bolidemichael said:
It’s deeply ingrained in their company culture to solve the engineering challenge via in house means and then use the engineering know how to benefit across the business. The Honda F1 engine turned a corner with input from both the motorcycling and aviation departments. The process can be slow but it can also be robust and not tied to maverick engineers or designers.
The F1 engine was sorted by a European ex Mercedes engineer. Asaki-san_Head of Power Unit Development said:
"You may be aware that a part of what helped us solve those problems back then was the cooperation with Honda Jet. As I mentioned Honda Motor has helped us with various different points, but one of the points I’d like to mention is a cylinder sleeve plating, produced by our plant in Kumamoto - it’s called the Kumamoto plating. The Kumamoto plant is actually a motorbike factory, but within Honda there’s a substantial amount of collaboration between the two-wheel production and four-wheel production areas."
Neil Trundle talks about this in this video. https://youtu.be/d1OVW-6M6BM?si=uwbVv2Sqs8qCWm0I&a...
hiccy18 said:
Ah.
You'll recall, in previous seasons Ducati wheeled the bikes out of their box on a Tuesday morning in Valencia and into the satellite boxes. With the GP23's, they stripped off all of last seasons development parts, so engineered a years worth of gap between the machines, and with a further gap to come during the season. I think you're right in your assessment that when they get on top of the chatter issues, Pecco, Jorge and Enea will fly, and I believe even Marc will struggle to stay on pace towards the end of the season, Philip Island excepted.
Where did you get that the 2023 bikes have been stripped of upgrades from? As the only place I read/hear it is on here.You'll recall, in previous seasons Ducati wheeled the bikes out of their box on a Tuesday morning in Valencia and into the satellite boxes. With the GP23's, they stripped off all of last seasons development parts, so engineered a years worth of gap between the machines, and with a further gap to come during the season. I think you're right in your assessment that when they get on top of the chatter issues, Pecco, Jorge and Enea will fly, and I believe even Marc will struggle to stay on pace towards the end of the season, Philip Island excepted.
The poor performance of Bez can be explained by the different engine braking of the 2023 vs 2022 bike. That's why Bastianini was struggling last year, and why he's better this year - they both like/need the same engine braking characteristic. The rest of the riders on the 2023 bike aside from MM have fluctuating form normally.
hiccy18 said:
You can use your eyes, there's big differences in the aero between the bikes that ended last season and what was given to the satellite teams. The improved launch device is also not present, Ducati stated that the satellite teams don't have the staffing to support it.
The insufficient resource at the satellite teams rings a bell yes.I think you have to look back at previous seasons to see historically what happened at Ducati.
Was it '22 when they couldn't agreed on engine specs for the factory and Pramac teams, and they had different engines between them.
Bastiani was on the Gresini bike then and managed to put a good run together and challenge for the title.
GP '23 gave Pecco a better bike from the off, likewise Pramac also. Bastiani had a season from hell through injury and not gelling with the GP '23 over the Gresini bike. Bez had the bike to win races, and Digi struggled for most of the year until Frankie found something and he suddenly became a front runner.
Now in '24 the factory bikes have taken a step, but as with every year they take a few rounds to find their base settings, Bastiani seems far more at home, maybe the GP '24 takes some of the DNA from the '23 and '22 bikes, Pecco still seems at sea though, and likewise Bez get's a '23 bike and he's lost his feel, Digi is in the same boat and doesn't have Frankie anymore... that's a huge issue for him.
Morbidelli is literally just starting his season after a woeful pre-season, so he is still finding his feet and Marc like Frankie is trying to get his head around his new bike, team etc.
In essence every Ducati rider has a new package, only 5 of the 8 riders are with the same team, maybe not all the same techs (as some were poached) and the other 3 everything is new.
And factor in that until we get to the main European rounds we won't have the usual stability of race tracks, once we return to Europe I think we'll start to see the norm return.
Was it '22 when they couldn't agreed on engine specs for the factory and Pramac teams, and they had different engines between them.
Bastiani was on the Gresini bike then and managed to put a good run together and challenge for the title.
GP '23 gave Pecco a better bike from the off, likewise Pramac also. Bastiani had a season from hell through injury and not gelling with the GP '23 over the Gresini bike. Bez had the bike to win races, and Digi struggled for most of the year until Frankie found something and he suddenly became a front runner.
Now in '24 the factory bikes have taken a step, but as with every year they take a few rounds to find their base settings, Bastiani seems far more at home, maybe the GP '24 takes some of the DNA from the '23 and '22 bikes, Pecco still seems at sea though, and likewise Bez get's a '23 bike and he's lost his feel, Digi is in the same boat and doesn't have Frankie anymore... that's a huge issue for him.
Morbidelli is literally just starting his season after a woeful pre-season, so he is still finding his feet and Marc like Frankie is trying to get his head around his new bike, team etc.
In essence every Ducati rider has a new package, only 5 of the 8 riders are with the same team, maybe not all the same techs (as some were poached) and the other 3 everything is new.
And factor in that until we get to the main European rounds we won't have the usual stability of race tracks, once we return to Europe I think we'll start to see the norm return.
Turn7 said:
‘24 Ducs have big chatter issue due to new tyre I believe .
That’s going to take time to dial out
Is there a new rear tyre this year? That’s going to take time to dial out
I thought the chatter was derived from the 2024 chassis. More grip = more chatter sometimes. Chatter is worse on the soft than the medium by all accounts.
Once they get rid of it they will be better that's for sure.
Zarco said:
Turn7 said:
‘24 Ducs have big chatter issue due to new tyre I believe .
That’s going to take time to dial out
Is there a new rear tyre this year? That’s going to take time to dial out
I thought the chatter was derived from the 2024 chassis. More grip = more chatter sometimes. Chatter is worse on the soft than the medium by all accounts.
Once they get rid of it they will be better that's for sure.
As with any tyre change it will work for some and not others, they did mention the mass-damper so I am assuming it just needs data modelling to get it resolved.
Freakuk said:
Zarco said:
Turn7 said:
‘24 Ducs have big chatter issue due to new tyre I believe .
That’s going to take time to dial out
Is there a new rear tyre this year? That’s going to take time to dial out
I thought the chatter was derived from the 2024 chassis. More grip = more chatter sometimes. Chatter is worse on the soft than the medium by all accounts.
Once they get rid of it they will be better that's for sure.
As with any tyre change it will work for some and not others, they did mention the mass-damper so I am assuming it just needs data modelling to get it resolved.
732NM said:
bolidemichael said:
732NM said:
bolidemichael said:
It’s deeply ingrained in their company culture to solve the engineering challenge via in house means and then use the engineering know how to benefit across the business. The Honda F1 engine turned a corner with input from both the motorcycling and aviation departments. The process can be slow but it can also be robust and not tied to maverick engineers or designers.
The F1 engine was sorted by a European ex Mercedes engineer. Asaki-san_Head of Power Unit Development said:
"You may be aware that a part of what helped us solve those problems back then was the cooperation with Honda Jet. As I mentioned Honda Motor has helped us with various different points, but one of the points I’d like to mention is a cylinder sleeve plating, produced by our plant in Kumamoto - it’s called the Kumamoto plating. The Kumamoto plant is actually a motorbike factory, but within Honda there’s a substantial amount of collaboration between the two-wheel production and four-wheel production areas."
Neil Trundle talks about this in this video. https://youtu.be/d1OVW-6M6BM?si=uwbVv2Sqs8qCWm0I&a...
In essence, the idea that it's solely a one man solution who has driven the success of Honda's engine/PU development ignores the simple fact that it doesn't matter how much efficiency one can engineer if that PU has no oil or fuel; or that morale of the engineering teams is an important factor in the success of the engineering development -- which is also mentioned in the "PR piece" (which you casually disregard) -- one man alone cannot compensate for the additional organisational factor necessary for a complex development and with new chassis manufacturers.
bolidemichael said:
I shall aim to find time to give it a listen, thanks. I shall say however, that the super-elevation of one identifiable aspect of the engineering innovation results in an almost mono-causal explanation. However, unlocking engineering developments seldom have just one monumental underlying cause and especially something as complex as a modern F1 PU or cross-territory teams cannot be explained by one factor.
In essence, the idea that it's solely a one man solution who has driven the success of Honda's engine/PU development ignores the simple fact that it doesn't matter how much efficiency one can engineer if that PU has no oil or fuel; or that morale of the engineering teams is an important factor in the success of the engineering development -- which is also mentioned in the "PR piece" (which you casually disregard) -- one man alone cannot compensate for the additional organisational factor necessary for a complex development and with new chassis manufacturers.
One man can scrap the architecture of the current engine and start again, thats what Honda did. Of course the whole engineering team contributed, but without that redesign they would be nowhere. In essence, the idea that it's solely a one man solution who has driven the success of Honda's engine/PU development ignores the simple fact that it doesn't matter how much efficiency one can engineer if that PU has no oil or fuel; or that morale of the engineering teams is an important factor in the success of the engineering development -- which is also mentioned in the "PR piece" (which you casually disregard) -- one man alone cannot compensate for the additional organisational factor necessary for a complex development and with new chassis manufacturers.
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