Bike vs car again...
Discussion
Easy way to sort this Pugsey we'll meet you somewhere, uuummmm say Bedfordshire somewhere loads of good roads or Oxfordshire give each other a little bit of time to learn the roads etc check junctions............then have a laugh.....love leaving cars behind whole reason sold my car for a bike, still like my cars but they are so boring within 6 months...
a.g. said:
Pugsey said:
Currently driving a 997GT3 and down my local 'bikers road' I'm amazed how easy it is to dust nine out of ten brightly coloured super bike riding ninja turtles I come across - all knees out but nowhere near down and wobbly wobbly. It takes a serious bit of kit and an even more serious rider to live with the GT3 but boy when I come across someone who can really ride rather than just kid themselves down the pub they get my RESPECT. It is very hard to drive this sort of car to it's limits - I don't just mean fast - but much, much harder to ride a bike to it's limits and in my opinion not many can.
Its called physics mate. Just google "contact patch", "grip" and "traction".
Pugsey said:
Oh and when you're behind that bubble at warp speed on the continent have a wee look in your mirror lads - there might, just occasionally, be a car behind wanting past! 
Hmm....... Not a phenomenon I have encountered whilst in autobahn mode. In fact it is usually a bit of a light relief to d1ck all the cars on the way back from the Ring after being creamed by Porkers mid-corner for 2 days because as you correctly point out, a decent car will of course be able to cary much more corner speeds than the bike. Similarly on your twisty road scenario.
You appear to have chosen to have missed my point. I'm well aware of the physics thank you - I thought I made it clear that I was talking about driving/riding to the machines full capacity - not just 'fast' which is subjective to the individual involved - which takes skill irrespective of how much contact patch blah, blah, blah you have. In fact the more of that stuff you've got the faster your travelling when you breech them so IMO and greater skill is therefore needed.
My point was that very few bikers actually seem able to ride their superbikes to the full. I made it very clear that those who can have my utmost respect - if you are, hand on heart, one of them then so do you.
I stand by my comments re.autobahns - I occasionally encounter groups of bikes having a quick blat up to decent speeds but in general for prolonged cruising they seem to sit at 120 - 130mph very often seeming to think that this means nothing will come past. Conditions allowing, 160mph is standard trucking speed for the GT3 for mile after mile with nigh on 40mph left for fun. Again if you cruise at these speeds - or use your mirrors - my comments weren't aimed at you.
996 sps said:
Easy way to sort this Pugsey we'll meet you somewhere, uuummmm say Bedfordshire somewhere loads of good roads or Oxfordshire give each other a little bit of time to learn the roads etc check junctions............then have a laugh.....love leaving cars behind whole reason sold my car for a bike, still like my cars but they are so boring within 6 months...
Listen. IF you are one of the talented FEW - IMO - who really can extract the max from your bike then I'm sure you do leave the majority of cars you encounter behind. You bxxxxy well ought to!, it shouldn't be that difficult. However I doubt you often come up against a serious bit of kit being driven well and I suggest that from your comments you have no idea how rapid something like a GT3 really is at it's limits. Of course throw in some 'Sunday' traffic and I'll be left chewing my steering wheel with frustration as you dissappear through gaps my Porker can't even look at. My original comments were really just pointing out that IMO very very few bikers can actually ride their bikes to anywhere near their limits and I was suprised how few can get anywhere near me on road. I reckon most bikers think six or seven tenths is fast. If you are genuinely a ten tenths man then, Respect to you. But only you know of course.
Pugsey said:
a.g. said:
Pugsey said:
Currently driving a 997GT3 and down my local 'bikers road' I'm amazed how easy it is to dust nine out of ten brightly coloured super bike riding ninja turtles I come across - all knees out but nowhere near down and wobbly wobbly. It takes a serious bit of kit and an even more serious rider to live with the GT3 but boy when I come across someone who can really ride rather than just kid themselves down the pub they get my RESPECT. It is very hard to drive this sort of car to it's limits - I don't just mean fast - but much, much harder to ride a bike to it's limits and in my opinion not many can.
Its called physics mate. Just google "contact patch", "grip" and "traction".
Pugsey said:
Oh and when you're behind that bubble at warp speed on the continent have a wee look in your mirror lads - there might, just occasionally, be a car behind wanting past!
Hmm....... Not a phenomenon I have encountered whilst in autobahn mode. In fact it is usually a bit of a light relief to d1ck all the cars on the way back from the Ring after being creamed by Porkers mid-corner for 2 days because as you correctly point out, a decent car will of course be able to cary much more corner speeds than the bike. Similarly on your twisty road scenario.
You appear to have chosen to have missed my point. I'm well aware of the physics thank you - I thought I made it clear that I was talking about driving/riding to the machines full capacity - not just 'fast' which is subjective to the individual involved - which takes skill irrespective of how much contact patch blah, blah, blah you have. In fact the more of that stuff you've got the faster your travelling when you breech them so IMO and greater skill is therefore needed.
My point was that very few bikers actually seem able to ride their superbikes to the full. I made it very clear that those who can have my utmost respect - if you are, hand on heart, one of them then so do you.
I stand by my comments re.autobahns - I occasionally encounter groups of bikes having a quick blat up to decent speeds but in general for prolonged cruising they seem to sit at 120 - 130mph very often seeming to think that this means nothing will come past. Conditions allowing, 160mph is standard trucking speed for the GT3 for mile after mile with nigh on 40mph left for fun. Again if you cruise at these speeds - or use your mirrors - my comments weren't aimed at you.
I don't dispute what you're saying, but I'd look on it this way. The more power you have the harder it is to be able to use it all properly. Think what would a car be like to drive with similar power to weight ratio to a litre bike with rider on board and no traction control. You'd have have to treat it with big respect and very few people could use it to full effect. I'd say you're in the ball park of 600bhp/ton at the wheels with a rider on board, so for a 1300kg motor that'd be 780bhp. I'm not having a dig here, just trying to make a fair comparison. When you add in that there are two less wheels, I'd say it's no wonder that few folks are capable of riding a 1L bike to its full extent.
Steve.
Steve_T said:
Pugsey said:
a.g. said:
Pugsey said:
Currently driving a 997GT3 and down my local 'bikers road' I'm amazed how easy it is to dust nine out of ten brightly coloured super bike riding ninja turtles I come across - all knees out but nowhere near down and wobbly wobbly. It takes a serious bit of kit and an even more serious rider to live with the GT3 but boy when I come across someone who can really ride rather than just kid themselves down the pub they get my RESPECT. It is very hard to drive this sort of car to it's limits - I don't just mean fast - but much, much harder to ride a bike to it's limits and in my opinion not many can.
Its called physics mate. Just google "contact patch", "grip" and "traction".
Pugsey said:
Oh and when you're behind that bubble at warp speed on the continent have a wee look in your mirror lads - there might, just occasionally, be a car behind wanting past!
Hmm....... Not a phenomenon I have encountered whilst in autobahn mode. In fact it is usually a bit of a light relief to d1ck all the cars on the way back from the Ring after being creamed by Porkers mid-corner for 2 days because as you correctly point out, a decent car will of course be able to cary much more corner speeds than the bike. Similarly on your twisty road scenario.
You appear to have chosen to have missed my point. I'm well aware of the physics thank you - I thought I made it clear that I was talking about driving/riding to the machines full capacity - not just 'fast' which is subjective to the individual involved - which takes skill irrespective of how much contact patch blah, blah, blah you have. In fact the more of that stuff you've got the faster your travelling when you breech them so IMO and greater skill is therefore needed.
My point was that very few bikers actually seem able to ride their superbikes to the full. I made it very clear that those who can have my utmost respect - if you are, hand on heart, one of them then so do you.
I stand by my comments re.autobahns - I occasionally encounter groups of bikes having a quick blat up to decent speeds but in general for prolonged cruising they seem to sit at 120 - 130mph very often seeming to think that this means nothing will come past. Conditions allowing, 160mph is standard trucking speed for the GT3 for mile after mile with nigh on 40mph left for fun. Again if you cruise at these speeds - or use your mirrors - my comments weren't aimed at you.
I don't dispute what you're saying, but I'd look on it this way. The more power you have the harder it is to be able to use it all properly. Think what would a car be like to drive with similar power to weight ratio to a litre bike with rider on board and no traction control. You'd have have to treat it with big respect and very few people could use it to full effect. I'd say you're in the ball park of 600bhp/ton at the wheels with a rider on board, so for a 1300kg motor that'd be 780bhp. I'm not having a dig here, just trying to make a fair comparison. When you add in that there are two less wheels, I'd say it's no wonder that few folks are capable of riding a 1L bike to its full extent.
Steve.
Couldn't agree more. That was sort of my point - it's fairly easy to think you're fast on a bike because using say 60% of it's capabilities 'feels' pretty damn fast but the reality is that you're actually probably a 'slow' rider in terms of what your machine will do. I'm not suprised either that very few bods can ride these machines to the limits and again, huge respect to those that can. My plea was that please be aware that just once in a while you may come across a car that actually is quick in which situation it would be nice to feel it would be accorded the same awareness and respect that I give bikers - rather than the suprised aggression I often seem to encounter when a biker has had his ego dented.
Agree totally with the rider aspect, have been so surprised at how steady and reasonable slow some riders on their sports bike are(but as long as they enjoy them who really cares), some things are about ownership, believe I thanked a lot of you when my friend died on a rideout on the 9 June 2006 in Cornwall last year, I put it on here to make us think of the difference of a crash in a car to a bike, after that really thought I had to sell the bike as did't liked what I see (as you can imagine) but I took the decision to keep the bike and what confirmed this was when I stopped at the services and some guy asked if he could have a look at the bike ended up having a coffee just talking bikes, sorry if I've gone off the subject a bit, but who bloody cares I like cleaning my bike and car, live for the summer so can get on the bike, either bikes are in your blood or not,either way no pub chat etc but if could meet you and if you have any other of your mates in their cars (i.e 911's etc) my mate has a Mondena 360 which he likes to use hard (green one in Bedfordshire area)went to Bournemouth in it last summer, very quick, then we'll meet up i'll stick a cam-corder on the tank.............be superb then have a drink after.....
996, you should come along to this as you're a local
www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?p=1&f=65&t=344073&h=0
www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?p=1&f=65&t=344073&h=0
I disagree to an extent re the advantage a car has over a bike regards traction, ultimately that is the case, however very, very few roads cars represent no where near the “ultimate “ in design to see this theory through
a bike is disadvantaged by its contact patch but 99% of road cars are disadvantaged by their weight and compromised build, suspension and tyres ...which is why bikes can out corner and lap a circuit quicker than most normal “sports" cars. As witnessed by many head to head challenges and my experience on the road.
A bike is harder to ride and master than a car, but the whole experience is far more satisfying
What I do like about sports bikes is that they are, as standard, the real deal
with little of the compromises that a production car has
You can heap loads of grief on them and they take it without complaint..and all this on 95RON with no need for expensive servicing!
Try abusing most “sports” cars hard and often and the clutches, drive train and brakes will have melted to mush with numerous messages on the dash asking you to go to the main dealer. I had a blast with a friend of mine who has an M5; we had to call a halt to it after 15 minutes when smoke poured from all 4 calipers, it couldn’t handle the repeated high speed braking, the clutch had gone and in his words,” it felt real out of shape”
Engine/Chassis/suspension/brake/tyres are all pretty much state of the art on a sports bike and in general you don’t need to start throwing ££££££’s at them for fast road/track work.
Most “sports” production cars have failings in one or more of these areas’s as they come out of the factory.
For a car to beat a bike on the track, it has to be a “proper” sports car with proper ground effects, not a bolt on STi or “M” spoiler IE your Radicals etc…such a car doesn’t come with the options like aircon/airbags or maybe even ignition key for that matter!
An average 129MPH lap of the TT course on a near stock GSXR Thou..Near 200MPH performance with a change of pipe and "re map"...for 8 and a bit grand from your nearest Suzuki dealer....bargain or what??
Because a bike is such a demanding piece of machinery, you have to have reached a certain level of competence to use it, if you can, there pretty much unbeatable on the road and on the track against 99% of “sports” production cars.
Once you have a passion for bikes, its hard to let go, even the racing is 1000% more exciting than anything that cars can offer
No, I love my car, I really enjoy driving it and it keeps me dry n’ warm but if it was a choice over the car or the bike, the car would go.
Still love a blat in a Veyron thou!
a bike is disadvantaged by its contact patch but 99% of road cars are disadvantaged by their weight and compromised build, suspension and tyres ...which is why bikes can out corner and lap a circuit quicker than most normal “sports" cars. As witnessed by many head to head challenges and my experience on the road.
A bike is harder to ride and master than a car, but the whole experience is far more satisfying
What I do like about sports bikes is that they are, as standard, the real deal
with little of the compromises that a production car has
You can heap loads of grief on them and they take it without complaint..and all this on 95RON with no need for expensive servicing!
Try abusing most “sports” cars hard and often and the clutches, drive train and brakes will have melted to mush with numerous messages on the dash asking you to go to the main dealer. I had a blast with a friend of mine who has an M5; we had to call a halt to it after 15 minutes when smoke poured from all 4 calipers, it couldn’t handle the repeated high speed braking, the clutch had gone and in his words,” it felt real out of shape”
Engine/Chassis/suspension/brake/tyres are all pretty much state of the art on a sports bike and in general you don’t need to start throwing ££££££’s at them for fast road/track work.
Most “sports” production cars have failings in one or more of these areas’s as they come out of the factory.
For a car to beat a bike on the track, it has to be a “proper” sports car with proper ground effects, not a bolt on STi or “M” spoiler IE your Radicals etc…such a car doesn’t come with the options like aircon/airbags or maybe even ignition key for that matter!
An average 129MPH lap of the TT course on a near stock GSXR Thou..Near 200MPH performance with a change of pipe and "re map"...for 8 and a bit grand from your nearest Suzuki dealer....bargain or what??
Because a bike is such a demanding piece of machinery, you have to have reached a certain level of competence to use it, if you can, there pretty much unbeatable on the road and on the track against 99% of “sports” production cars.
Once you have a passion for bikes, its hard to let go, even the racing is 1000% more exciting than anything that cars can offer
No, I love my car, I really enjoy driving it and it keeps me dry n’ warm but if it was a choice over the car or the bike, the car would go.
Still love a blat in a Veyron thou!
podman said:
I disagree to an extent re the advantage a car has over a bike regards traction, ultimately that is the case, however very, very few roads cars represent no where near the “ultimate “ in design to see this theory through
a bike is disadvantaged by its contact patch but 99% of road cars are disadvantaged by their weight and compromised build, suspension and tyres ...which is why bikes can out corner and lap a circuit quicker than most normal “sports" cars. As witnessed by many head to head challenges and my experience on the road.
A bike is harder to ride and master than a car, but the whole experience is far more satisfying
What I do like about sports bikes is that they are, as standard, the real deal
with little of the compromises that a production car has
You can heap loads of grief on them and they take it without complaint..and all this on 95RON with no need for expensive servicing!
Try abusing most “sports” cars hard and often and the clutches, drive train and brakes will have melted to mush with numerous messages on the dash asking you to go to the main dealer. I had a blast with a friend of mine who has an M5; we had to call a halt to it after 15 minutes when smoke poured from all 4 calipers, it couldn’t handle the repeated high speed braking, the clutch had gone and in his words,” it felt real out of shape”
Engine/Chassis/suspension/brake/tyres are all pretty much state of the art on a sports bike and in general you don’t need to start throwing ££££££’s at them for fast road/track work.
Most “sports” production cars have failings in one or more of these areas’s as they come out of the factory.
For a car to beat a bike on the track, it has to be a “proper” sports car with proper ground effects, not a bolt on STi or “M” spoiler IE your Radicals etc…such a car doesn’t come with the options like aircon/airbags or maybe even ignition key for that matter!
An average 129MPH lap of the TT course on a near stock GSXR Thou..Near 200MPH performance with a change of pipe and "re map"...for 8 and a bit grand from your nearest Suzuki dealer....bargain or what??
Because a bike is such a demanding piece of machinery, you have to have reached a certain level of competence to use it, if you can, there pretty much unbeatable on the road and on the track against 99% of “sports” production cars.
Once you have a passion for bikes, its hard to let go, even the racing is 1000% more exciting than anything that cars can offer
No, I love my car, I really enjoy driving it and it keeps me dry n’ warm but if it was a choice over the car or the bike, the car would go.
Still love a blat in a Veyron thou!
a bike is disadvantaged by its contact patch but 99% of road cars are disadvantaged by their weight and compromised build, suspension and tyres ...which is why bikes can out corner and lap a circuit quicker than most normal “sports" cars. As witnessed by many head to head challenges and my experience on the road.
A bike is harder to ride and master than a car, but the whole experience is far more satisfying
What I do like about sports bikes is that they are, as standard, the real deal
with little of the compromises that a production car has
You can heap loads of grief on them and they take it without complaint..and all this on 95RON with no need for expensive servicing!
Try abusing most “sports” cars hard and often and the clutches, drive train and brakes will have melted to mush with numerous messages on the dash asking you to go to the main dealer. I had a blast with a friend of mine who has an M5; we had to call a halt to it after 15 minutes when smoke poured from all 4 calipers, it couldn’t handle the repeated high speed braking, the clutch had gone and in his words,” it felt real out of shape”
Engine/Chassis/suspension/brake/tyres are all pretty much state of the art on a sports bike and in general you don’t need to start throwing ££££££’s at them for fast road/track work.
Most “sports” production cars have failings in one or more of these areas’s as they come out of the factory.
For a car to beat a bike on the track, it has to be a “proper” sports car with proper ground effects, not a bolt on STi or “M” spoiler IE your Radicals etc…such a car doesn’t come with the options like aircon/airbags or maybe even ignition key for that matter!
An average 129MPH lap of the TT course on a near stock GSXR Thou..Near 200MPH performance with a change of pipe and "re map"...for 8 and a bit grand from your nearest Suzuki dealer....bargain or what??
Because a bike is such a demanding piece of machinery, you have to have reached a certain level of competence to use it, if you can, there pretty much unbeatable on the road and on the track against 99% of “sports” production cars.
Once you have a passion for bikes, its hard to let go, even the racing is 1000% more exciting than anything that cars can offer
No, I love my car, I really enjoy driving it and it keeps me dry n’ warm but if it was a choice over the car or the bike, the car would go.
Still love a blat in a Veyron thou!
Mostly good points - especialy re heavy supposed 'sports' cars like the M5. Which is why I've got a GT3. That'll take me to the 'Ring at warp speed, lap all day and then take me home. It'll also out brake, corner and lap any cicuit quicker than a superbike. Mind you neither my GT3 or your bike will carry four people and their luggage across continents in comfort and at speed like the M5 will. Horses for courses I guess. And yes my Radical will dust all of 'em!
Finally I'm impressed you've done a 129mph lap of IOM on a stock GSXR - you must be one of those talented people I was refering to.
I stand by my belief that you are one of the 'few' and repeat that most superbikes I come across are 'Sunday wobblers'. Frankly, I'd rather be shit on an 8k piece of machinery than a needing a 100k piece of machinery to be just as shit - as demonstrated by a couple of four-wheeled posers that haven't quite had the hands and feet of Senna.
For every bike rider that can't get 100% out of his machine, there's just as many car drivers, and certainly proportionately more.
For every bike rider that can't get 100% out of his machine, there's just as many car drivers, and certainly proportionately more.
Not worth an argument chaps its banter, the fact is a motorcyclist has a lot more to lose in things go wrong, just like my friend, god bless him(although van turn't in front of him without indicators no insurance etc), fact of the matter is a lot of car lads (me included) can push the envelope more easily in car, traction control etc etc although not been in a car, Mondena included where the brakes don't fade, feel so much safer on my bike due to that, but bikes are designed for it! As Guy Martin said before starting the TT last year i'm willing to die in this race to win...........fecking hell, imagine any car racing driver saying that.....you know what its like on a bike that red mist is a wonderful thing and due to the fact if you can ride em you'll take chances (I think the hardcore bike riders are really slightly mental)........and as Pugsy admits a real rider (not that theres nothing wrong with any motorcycle owner fast or slow as ownership is part of it)will out do a car, I know 1 guy who used to sit along the A5 after F1 race day (yyyaaawwwnn F1 race) day near Silverstone with no number plate and sheets of A4 covering his sponsors licking everyone only a low level club racer, bikes, cars the lot he is gifted and thankfully still alive....................
Rawwr said:
Frankly, I'd rather be shit on an 8k piece of machinery than a needing a 100k piece of machinery to be just as shit - as demonstrated by a couple of four-wheeled posers that haven't quite had the hands and feet of Senna.
For every bike rider that can't get 100% out of his machine, there's just as many car drivers, and certainly proportionately more.
'Frankly'I thought twice about answering since you've decided be rude but I can't let that pass. At no point have I put down either bikes or bikers that can ride - quite the opposite. Neither have I said that there are any more good car drivers out there than good bikers. If you're happy to be 'shit' that's rather sad but ultimately up to you but don't feel just because my car cost a lot of money - which I work hard to earn - that I've got more money than driving skill, it's my great passion and I'm pretty good at it. I doen't 'need' my car to prove anything, I've got it because I love it and I can't imagine being happy to be 'shit' at driving it either. I never wanted this to become a 'them and us battle' you obviously do and I can imagine that that translates to your attitude on the road. I'll say now that I'm unlikely to reply to any response from you. For every bike rider that can't get 100% out of his machine, there's just as many car drivers, and certainly proportionately more.
I thought when Evo tested the GSXR Thou against the Porsche GT whatever it was it was well and truly beaten as was the M3 CSL...all too heavy..the gsxr just pipped the radical as well but i understand depending on which track suits the radical or the bike depends on the outcome..
Agreed a porker is probably the most capable day to day usable performance car on the road but I would argue its quicker out of the box round any track than a superbike , given the relative skills of the riders/drivers of course.
Any superbike will zap you to anywhere in the continent and back, given it wont be in to much comfort but a car journey is no where near the level of fun or sense of achievement that travelling by bike gives you.
..and no i havent done a 129MPH lap of the TT but ive been riding and driving long enough to know the limitations of each types of vehicle
Agreed a porker is probably the most capable day to day usable performance car on the road but I would argue its quicker out of the box round any track than a superbike , given the relative skills of the riders/drivers of course.
Any superbike will zap you to anywhere in the continent and back, given it wont be in to much comfort but a car journey is no where near the level of fun or sense of achievement that travelling by bike gives you.
..and no i havent done a 129MPH lap of the TT but ive been riding and driving long enough to know the limitations of each types of vehicle
Pugsey, serious question do you turn your traction control off? Just read a review by Clarkson said be very hard to correct if all went wrong you'd end up on a recovery truck........................rather feel my knee scraping and winding that throttle up than relying on electronics, aaaaaaaaaawwwwwww bring on the summer
FOR THE RECORD CHAPS.!!! I love bikes - had a few over the years and just about to take the plunge again for the spring. I'll be one of the slow ones with all the right gear but I will A. be enjoying myself and B. (probably more importantly) be aware of quicker guys - be they cars or bikes - and there'll be quite a few!
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