Bike vs car again...
Discussion
996 sps said:
Pugsey, serious question do you turn your traction control off? Just read a review by Clarkson said be very hard to correct if all went wrong you'd end up on a recovery truck........................rather feel my knee scraping and winding that throttle up than relying on electronics, aaaaaaaaaawwwwwww bring on the summer
In the new (997)GT3 TC.is quite 'obliging' ie. you can move the car around a fair bit with it on. Even the GT3 has a bit of user friendly understeer built in (until you adjust the suspension) and you can only get round this by using the rear weight biase properly. But yes I do turn it off for a bit of fun - especially in the wet. Porsche have come a long way and you can drift this car all day if you're reasonably capable. Mind you it's on what are effectively track day tyres which helps hugely. You can only rely on electronics up to a point - they can't save you from the laws of physics but once you've learnt the point were they leave you fending for yourself you're OK. Bare in mind that JC is not a driver - have you noticed how 'his' face is obscured by the A pillar whenever 'he' is holding a car in a drift. You see his face in general hooning around though. Funny that!
Pugsey said:
Rawwr said:
Frankly, I'd rather be shit on an 8k piece of machinery than a needing a 100k piece of machinery to be just as shit - as demonstrated by a couple of four-wheeled posers that haven't quite had the hands and feet of Senna.
For every bike rider that can't get 100% out of his machine, there's just as many car drivers, and certainly proportionately more.
'Frankly'I thought twice about answering since you've decided be rude but I can't let that pass. At no point have I put down either bikes or bikers that can ride - quite the opposite. Neither have I said that there are any more good car drivers out there than good bikers. If you're happy to be 'shit' that's rather sad but ultimately up to you but don't feel just because my car cost a lot of money - which I work hard to earn - that I've got more money than driving skill, it's my great passion and I'm pretty good at it. I doen't 'need' my car to prove anything, I've got it because I love it and I can't imagine being happy to be 'shit' at driving it either. I never wanted this to become a 'them and us battle' you obviously do and I can imagine that that translates to your attitude on the road. I'll say now that I'm unlikely to reply to any response from you. For every bike rider that can't get 100% out of his machine, there's just as many car drivers, and certainly proportionately more.
It wasn't aimed at you. Sorry if you took it personally. Maybe you misread?
I also never claimed that I was happy to be shit. I stated that I would rather be shit than $x. In fact, I didn't make any reference to my own ability at all.
Also, stating that I 'clearly' want this to be a 'them and us' battle is odd and come from some strange interpretation that perhaps only you can see? For the record, I've owned trackday specials (car), too.
It was generalisation but it remains true. I've always typically found that the higher the value of the car, that as a degree of the car's ability, the less able the person at the wheel is. Though most of this I attribute to people that used high value cars as status symbols.
Hope that clears things up for you.
podman said:
I thought when Evo tested the GSXR Thou against the Porsche GT whatever it was it was well and truly beaten as was the M3 CSL...all too heavy..the gsxr just pipped the radical as well but i understand depending on which track suits the radical or the bike depends on the outcome..
Agreed a porker is probably the most capable day to day usable performance car on the road but I would argue its quicker out of the box round any track than a superbike , given the relative skills of the riders/drivers of course.
Any superbike will zap you to anywhere in the continent and back, given it wont be in to much comfort but a car journey is no where near the level of fun or sense of achievement that travelling by bike gives you.
..and no i havent done a 129MPH lap of the TT but ive been riding and driving long enough to know the limitations of each types of vehicle
Agreed a porker is probably the most capable day to day usable performance car on the road but I would argue its quicker out of the box round any track than a superbike , given the relative skills of the riders/drivers of course.
Any superbike will zap you to anywhere in the continent and back, given it wont be in to much comfort but a car journey is no where near the level of fun or sense of achievement that travelling by bike gives you.
..and no i havent done a 129MPH lap of the TT but ive been riding and driving long enough to know the limitations of each types of vehicle
Do road bikes do the 'Ring in 7.40 then? - blimey!
Ah, now you've mentioned the 'fun' word - probably wouldn't argue with you there.
Sadly wasn't in on the Evo test you mention but I'll dig it out from the loo or where ever it's ended up.
The new GT3 comes on enormously sticky track orientated tyres and I stand by what I said there.
I thought it was all about enjoying your hobby, bikes or cars.
So what if your not the fastest, havn't got the best. As long as you enjoy yourself safely that's great.
Do you really want to ride/drive beyond yours or your vehicles limits and possibly kill yourself / someone else, just to prove a point.
I have been unfortunate enough to suffer a life threatning injury through my own stupidity and the five months it took me to get better gave me plenty of time to think about the important stuff in life.
Still ride a bike though
So what if your not the fastest, havn't got the best. As long as you enjoy yourself safely that's great.
Do you really want to ride/drive beyond yours or your vehicles limits and possibly kill yourself / someone else, just to prove a point.
I have been unfortunate enough to suffer a life threatning injury through my own stupidity and the five months it took me to get better gave me plenty of time to think about the important stuff in life.
Still ride a bike though
Pugsey said:
podman said:
I thought when Evo tested the GSXR Thou against the Porsche GT whatever it was it was well and truly beaten as was the M3 CSL...all too heavy..the gsxr just pipped the radical as well but i understand depending on which track suits the radical or the bike depends on the outcome..
Agreed a porker is probably the most capable day to day usable performance car on the road but I would argue its quicker out of the box round any track than a superbike , given the relative skills of the riders/drivers of course.
Any superbike will zap you to anywhere in the continent and back, given it wont be in to much comfort but a car journey is no where near the level of fun or sense of achievement that travelling by bike gives you.
..and no i havent done a 129MPH lap of the TT but ive been riding and driving long enough to know the limitations of each types of vehicle
Agreed a porker is probably the most capable day to day usable performance car on the road but I would argue its quicker out of the box round any track than a superbike , given the relative skills of the riders/drivers of course.
Any superbike will zap you to anywhere in the continent and back, given it wont be in to much comfort but a car journey is no where near the level of fun or sense of achievement that travelling by bike gives you.
..and no i havent done a 129MPH lap of the TT but ive been riding and driving long enough to know the limitations of each types of vehicle
Do road bikes do the 'Ring in 7.40 then? - blimey!
Ah, now you've mentioned the 'fun' word - probably wouldn't argue with you there.
Sadly wasn't in on the Evo test you mention but I'll dig it out from the loo or where ever it's ended up.
The new GT3 comes on enormously sticky track orientated tyres and I stand by what I said there.
Pugsey
Check out Helmet Dahne's record (circa 1989?) of 7.43 (or something similar) on a Honda RC30 (homologation special, however, still a ducati 999R type bike of its day). This was also on tyres relative to the late 1980s.
Bren from sliders (over near the 'Ring) has done a few 7.43s (BTG) on video, and his tyres are perfect, not ripped up, and not sliding either.... If you've got the balls, it is possible!
PS when's the RS coming?
Rawwr said:
Pugsey said:
Rawwr said:
Frankly, I'd rather be shit on an 8k piece of machinery than a needing a 100k piece of machinery to be just as shit - as demonstrated by a couple of four-wheeled posers that haven't quite had the hands and feet of Senna.
For every bike rider that can't get 100% out of his machine, there's just as many car drivers, and certainly proportionately more.
'Frankly'I thought twice about answering since you've decided be rude but I can't let that pass. At no point have I put down either bikes or bikers that can ride - quite the opposite. Neither have I said that there are any more good car drivers out there than good bikers. If you're happy to be 'shit' that's rather sad but ultimately up to you but don't feel just because my car cost a lot of money - which I work hard to earn - that I've got more money than driving skill, it's my great passion and I'm pretty good at it. I doen't 'need' my car to prove anything, I've got it because I love it and I can't imagine being happy to be 'shit' at driving it either. I never wanted this to become a 'them and us battle' you obviously do and I can imagine that that translates to your attitude on the road. I'll say now that I'm unlikely to reply to any response from you. For every bike rider that can't get 100% out of his machine, there's just as many car drivers, and certainly proportionately more.
It wasn't aimed at you. Sorry if you took it personally. Maybe you misread?
I also never claimed that I was happy to be shit. I stated that I would rather be shit than $x. In fact, I didn't make any reference to my own ability at all.
Also, stating that I 'clearly' want this to be a 'them and us' battle is odd and come from some strange interpretation that perhaps only you can see? For the record, I've owned trackday specials (car), too.
It was generalisation but it remains true. I've always typically found that the higher the value of the car, that as a degree of the car's ability, the less able the person at the wheel is. Though most of this I attribute to people that used high value cars as status symbols.
Hope that clears things up for you.
I was prob. feeling a bit 'picked on'.
I'm also very sensitive to people assuming I'm a poser because I've got a Porker although there are those who clearly are! Actually isn't that what I was originally saying about bikes - the more colourful and ninja turtle they become the slower they seem to ride. Saw an old guy in tatty leathers down our local 'bikers' road the other day on some old BMW sailing round the outside of all sorts of exotic machinery. Like a galleon in full sail he was. I'm off for a G&T - no doubt your's is a pint. 
fergus said:
Pugsey said:
podman said:
I thought when Evo tested the GSXR Thou against the Porsche GT whatever it was it was well and truly beaten as was the M3 CSL...all too heavy..the gsxr just pipped the radical as well but i understand depending on which track suits the radical or the bike depends on the outcome..
Agreed a porker is probably the most capable day to day usable performance car on the road but I would argue its quicker out of the box round any track than a superbike , given the relative skills of the riders/drivers of course.
Any superbike will zap you to anywhere in the continent and back, given it wont be in to much comfort but a car journey is no where near the level of fun or sense of achievement that travelling by bike gives you.
..and no i havent done a 129MPH lap of the TT but ive been riding and driving long enough to know the limitations of each types of vehicle
Agreed a porker is probably the most capable day to day usable performance car on the road but I would argue its quicker out of the box round any track than a superbike , given the relative skills of the riders/drivers of course.
Any superbike will zap you to anywhere in the continent and back, given it wont be in to much comfort but a car journey is no where near the level of fun or sense of achievement that travelling by bike gives you.
..and no i havent done a 129MPH lap of the TT but ive been riding and driving long enough to know the limitations of each types of vehicle
Do road bikes do the 'Ring in 7.40 then? - blimey!
Ah, now you've mentioned the 'fun' word - probably wouldn't argue with you there.
Sadly wasn't in on the Evo test you mention but I'll dig it out from the loo or where ever it's ended up.
The new GT3 comes on enormously sticky track orientated tyres and I stand by what I said there.
Pugsey
Check out Helmet Dahne's record (circa 1989?) of 7.43 (or something similar) on a Honda RC30 (homologation special, however, still a ducati 999R type bike of its day). This was also on tyres relative to the late 1980s.
Bren from sliders (over near the 'Ring) has done a few 7.43s (BTG) on video, and his tyres are perfect, not ripped up, and not sliding either.... If you've got the balls, it is possible!
PS when's the RS coming?
As I said, blimey and indeed cripes!!!!!!!!!!!
Four weeks!!!!!!
rsvmilly said:
996 sps said:
Superb RSV will be there as long as the suns up, bikes in for a service Thu so will be good to go, oil and filter new clutch bolts/back brake lever and MOT, Pugsey can you come pal?................
You should do. There will be some tasty machinery there. I'm with Pugsey,
Ive always maintained a car is faster than the bike, in an ideal senario....a dry road, the odd bit of traffic but always a place to overtake, an equal number of straights to corners......the car would win. Add traffic and the bike suddenly has an advantage as it can pip off single cars without needing too much gap between the on coming cars and between the overtaking cars. However now make the road wet, and the car comes back into favour again!
Ninja boy accused Pugsey of pub stories, personally I think that the biking scene is the worst for pub stories....burnt this car off, knee down through this bend, wheelied over this bridge
I used to ride, even instructed on the circuits, only reason didn't race, is I don't like the idea of the elbows at the first bend. I'm probably counted as a reformed biker as I don't ride anymore....but do race cars.
The Ring, as already mentioned, is a great place to test both rider/bike driver/car. Ive completed many many laps of the place, and see so many occasions where British would be Rossi riders come over...refuse to look in their mirrors.....blast down the straights, and refuse to yield in the corners. 9 times out of 10 the cars are faster than the bikes....in fact 99 times out of 100 is probably more realistic. Bren is a breed apart.....He is a fantastic rider....pretty talented in a car too! The lap record for a bike is 7:52, countless cars regularly beat this.
I'm happy to play bike v car game......as long as it doesn't become dangerous with unnecessary over taking moves.
Ive always maintained a car is faster than the bike, in an ideal senario....a dry road, the odd bit of traffic but always a place to overtake, an equal number of straights to corners......the car would win. Add traffic and the bike suddenly has an advantage as it can pip off single cars without needing too much gap between the on coming cars and between the overtaking cars. However now make the road wet, and the car comes back into favour again!
Ninja boy accused Pugsey of pub stories, personally I think that the biking scene is the worst for pub stories....burnt this car off, knee down through this bend, wheelied over this bridge
I used to ride, even instructed on the circuits, only reason didn't race, is I don't like the idea of the elbows at the first bend. I'm probably counted as a reformed biker as I don't ride anymore....but do race cars.
The Ring, as already mentioned, is a great place to test both rider/bike driver/car. Ive completed many many laps of the place, and see so many occasions where British would be Rossi riders come over...refuse to look in their mirrors.....blast down the straights, and refuse to yield in the corners. 9 times out of 10 the cars are faster than the bikes....in fact 99 times out of 100 is probably more realistic. Bren is a breed apart.....He is a fantastic rider....pretty talented in a car too! The lap record for a bike is 7:52, countless cars regularly beat this.
I'm happy to play bike v car game......as long as it doesn't become dangerous with unnecessary over taking moves.
Has a car ever done a lap of the Isle Of Man TT?? No as car brands are'nt interested as there is no pursuit of racing or testing there, do you really think a road racer would'nt go all out to leave a car at the ring on a K5 Gixer 1000 etc, christ they race round the Island and Cookstown like Battle Of Britain Aces, just can't see them letting a car come past....................So back to the Ring, 7:32 was clocked by Metzeler Tyre tester Helmut Dahnes's in 1993 (imagine someone now on the right bit of kit arse kick that) I believe not long after that a ex-pat Brit called Brendan Keirle clocked a 7:29 on a OWO1 in 94, that is the same spec as a modern 600 I would have thought, You keep the Ring we'll keep the Island, you gas off with traction control, air bags if theres wobbly bikers out there then I don't really care as long as there up for a natter over a coffee, as for all the cars I've had a laugh with i've always put my thumb up after we've finished and I'd hold my hand up if one has been close but it has'nt thats the truth...........but my local roads so hey local knowledge. I believe timing around the ring is a bit of an art form now as they measure from the bridge to the gantry over the track Dottinger Hohe-a full lap less one mile straight or just 20s at 180mph, make sure you take that into account! So you need to add times on which just is'nt as accurate as the official times set years ago,means timings surely are no longer as true!
I ride bikes and I also like to drive my Integra and the g/fs RX7 on track and road. Do I care what is faster (how many variables involved here?!) er, nope.
Been out on the bike all day (Fazer1000 fwiw) and loved its power and ability.
Will use the car for work tomorrow, warm, comfortable, quick (enough to be fun) and usable day to day..
:rollseyes:
Been out on the bike all day (Fazer1000 fwiw) and loved its power and ability.
Will use the car for work tomorrow, warm, comfortable, quick (enough to be fun) and usable day to day..
:rollseyes:
Helmut's lap was a 7:49
www.nurburgring.org.uk/ringers-faq.html Point 4.3
Its not about which Island has the best place to ride bikes.....it isn't even a debate to beggar the common belief that bikes are faster than cars.
It is more to the point that most bikers insist they are faster than a car. Personally I take great delight in playing with bikes.....and even in a vw golf.
My point is more that, so many bikers come out to the Ring with this problem embedded in their brain. Then they get into difficulties when trying to stop a local golf overtaking them. This often involves a trip to hospital and a long argument with the insurance company.
Maybe if bikers actually could recognise that the car, when driven properly, is an ample match there maybe less accidents.
I have a lot of respect for the TT, in all my time riding I never went across to see it.....mainly because I didnt want to tempt fate on that Sunday madness.
www.nurburgring.org.uk/ringers-faq.html Point 4.3
Its not about which Island has the best place to ride bikes.....it isn't even a debate to beggar the common belief that bikes are faster than cars.
It is more to the point that most bikers insist they are faster than a car. Personally I take great delight in playing with bikes.....and even in a vw golf.
My point is more that, so many bikers come out to the Ring with this problem embedded in their brain. Then they get into difficulties when trying to stop a local golf overtaking them. This often involves a trip to hospital and a long argument with the insurance company.
Maybe if bikers actually could recognise that the car, when driven properly, is an ample match there maybe less accidents.
I have a lot of respect for the TT, in all my time riding I never went across to see it.....mainly because I didnt want to tempt fate on that Sunday madness.
996 sps said:
Has a car ever done a lap of the Isle Of Man TT?? No as car brands are'nt interested as there is no pursuit of racing or testing there, do you really think a road racer would'nt go all out to leave a car at the ring on a K5 Gixer 1000 etc, christ they race round the Island and Cookstown like Battle Of Britain Aces, just can't see them letting a car come past....................So back to the Ring, 7:32 was clocked by Metzeler Tyre tester Helmut Dahnes's in 1993 (imagine someone now on the right bit of kit arse kick that) I believe not long after that a ex-pat Brit called Brendan Keirle clocked a 7:29 on a OWO1 in 94, that is the same spec as a modern 600 I would have thought, You keep the Ring we'll keep the Island, you gas off with traction control, air bags if theres wobbly bikers out there then I don't really care as long as there up for a natter over a coffee, as for all the cars I've had a laugh with i've always put my thumb up after we've finished and I'd hold my hand up if one has been close but it has'nt thats the truth...........but my local roads so hey local knowledge. I believe timing around the ring is a bit of an art form now as they measure from the bridge to the gantry over the track Dottinger Hohe-a full lap less one mile straight or just 20s at 180mph, make sure you take that into account! So you need to add times on which just is'nt as accurate as the official times set years ago,means timings surely are no longer as true!
Bren's never gone that quick IIRC! Dahne's time is also incorrect above.
PS most of the quoted lap times are not BTG when people talk about lap records. FYI the old records also start and finish from a different place on the circuit than the current start/finish location.
<rant on>
Apostophes: Often used when joining two words together, and put in place of the missing letter. Therefore, "was not" becomes "wasn't", not "was'nt"
<rant off>
I think that the key point here is that the average bike is considerably faster than the average car.
Assuming that the riders/drivers skill levels are roughly equal then it takes a very serious (and expensive) car to equal or better a bike. Ultimately, cars will be faster as they can house more powerful engines and can offer better aerodynamics, giving higher top speeds. They can also generate downforce, allowing for greater than 1g cornering forces, which is something that a bike physically can not do. But, to achieve this generally costs a very large amount of money.
As has been pointed out, there are many super bike riders who simply don’t have the levels of skill to get anywhere near the limits of their bike but then there are also a good number of sports car drivers with the same limitations.
Either way, I have respect for well driven cars and well ridden bikes. What ever I ride/drive I am aware that there will always be someone who can ride/drive faster than me as there is always someone who is skilled enough/stupid enough to handle greater levels of risk than I am willing to handle. (And that’s both safety risk and license risk!)
For absolute performance – you need a car but expect to pay a lot of money.
For ‘performance per pound’ – the bike has no equal.
Either way, both are fun!
Assuming that the riders/drivers skill levels are roughly equal then it takes a very serious (and expensive) car to equal or better a bike. Ultimately, cars will be faster as they can house more powerful engines and can offer better aerodynamics, giving higher top speeds. They can also generate downforce, allowing for greater than 1g cornering forces, which is something that a bike physically can not do. But, to achieve this generally costs a very large amount of money.
As has been pointed out, there are many super bike riders who simply don’t have the levels of skill to get anywhere near the limits of their bike but then there are also a good number of sports car drivers with the same limitations.
Either way, I have respect for well driven cars and well ridden bikes. What ever I ride/drive I am aware that there will always be someone who can ride/drive faster than me as there is always someone who is skilled enough/stupid enough to handle greater levels of risk than I am willing to handle. (And that’s both safety risk and license risk!)
For absolute performance – you need a car but expect to pay a lot of money.
For ‘performance per pound’ – the bike has no equal.
Either way, both are fun!
Fergus be honest not to interested in grammar lessons, on a bike and car web-site not an English lesson if I was handing in work for a sports therapy degree then fair enough, It always makes me wonder how interesting someones job is when they have the time to look closely into grammar and spelling, get your head down!
Preformance bikes have recorded Ring times in January issue where my timings where from, actually get it on CD Rom rather than hard copy then you can spell check it yaaaawwwnn!
Preformance bikes have recorded Ring times in January issue where my timings where from, actually get it on CD Rom rather than hard copy then you can spell check it yaaaawwwnn!
Gassing Station | Biker Banter | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff