Private bike sale - test ride insurance question?
Discussion
Hi there,
Am in the throes of selling one of my bikes and the prospective purchaser is struggling with temporary insurance to test ride the bike.
Now, whilst I'm considering letting him ride it, providing he leaves me with the full value in cash, are there any legal ramifications for me if he crashed the bike on the test ride?
Am in the throes of selling one of my bikes and the prospective purchaser is struggling with temporary insurance to test ride the bike.
Now, whilst I'm considering letting him ride it, providing he leaves me with the full value in cash, are there any legal ramifications for me if he crashed the bike on the test ride?
stig said:
Hi there,
Am in the throes of selling one of my bikes and the prospective purchaser is struggling with temporary insurance to test ride the bike.
Now, whilst I'm considering letting him ride it, providing he leaves me with the full value in cash, are there any legal ramifications for me if he crashed the bike on the test ride?
Am in the throes of selling one of my bikes and the prospective purchaser is struggling with temporary insurance to test ride the bike.
Now, whilst I'm considering letting him ride it, providing he leaves me with the full value in cash, are there any legal ramifications for me if he crashed the bike on the test ride?
I don't know about the legal ramifications but if it was me I wouldn't let an uninsured prospective buyer out on my bike...
I’m no expert but I think as long as you ask him if he has insurance and he answers yes then I think you are legally covered as you have taken ‘reasonable steps’ to ensure he has insurance.
The better option though is for him to leave a sum of cash that is agreed as the ‘purchase amount’ then should there be an incident it will be him and ‘his bike’ that have the problem. If the bike is returned undamaged then you agree to purchase it back at the same price. You will need his name and address details for the V5 for this approach.
The better option though is for him to leave a sum of cash that is agreed as the ‘purchase amount’ then should there be an incident it will be him and ‘his bike’ that have the problem. If the bike is returned undamaged then you agree to purchase it back at the same price. You will need his name and address details for the V5 for this approach.
Tell him to either go to ebikeinsurance.co.uk and get a temporary policy (assuming he doesn't have a current policy he can add it to) or to give you the full asking price in cash. Either way, I'd be very, very certain that I knew exactly who he was first, and that he did have the appropriate insurance...
Davel said:
Try and get a copy of his driving licence, or at least get his licence details and note times etc.
If he goes through a speed camera or red light, you'll need this info to hand later.
If he goes through a speed camera or red light, you'll need this info to hand later.
Sorry, I have to disagree with this. All you need is his name and address. If he goes through a speed/red light camera then all you need to do is be able to identify the driver. You don’t need his driving license details and I for one would not be giving those details to a complete stranger.
Fair point but when someone tried out my previous bike, they left their licence with me whilst they went out.
At least you hopefully have some sort of proof over their name and address.
Otherwise, they could leave the cash and ride off without you having their details and them re-registering the bike.
It could be a problem telling the DVLA that you are no longer the owner.
At least you hopefully have some sort of proof over their name and address.
Otherwise, they could leave the cash and ride off without you having their details and them re-registering the bike.
It could be a problem telling the DVLA that you are no longer the owner.
Davel said:
Fair point but when someone tried out my previous bike, they left their licence with me whilst they went out.
At least you hopefully have some sort of proof over their name and address.
Otherwise, they could leave the cash and ride off without you having their details and them re-registering the bike.
It could be a problem telling the DVLA that you are no longer the owner.
At least you hopefully have some sort of proof over their name and address.
Otherwise, they could leave the cash and ride off without you having their details and them re-registering the bike.
It could be a problem telling the DVLA that you are no longer the owner.
It's the test riders responsibility to ensure he is insured not yours. As long as he leaves (a copy is ok) both bits of his licence and the full cash for the bike, you can notify the police if you get an NIP or if he rides off you call the old bill letting them know the situation and that the bike has been nicked. That way you get a crime ref number to let the DVLA know, plus you have the cash. Just be careful as the chap now has your bike and knows you have the cash in the house
gordski said:
Davel said:
Fair point but when someone tried out my previous bike, they left their licence with me whilst they went out.
At least you hopefully have some sort of proof over their name and address.
Otherwise, they could leave the cash and ride off without you having their details and them re-registering the bike.
It could be a problem telling the DVLA that you are no longer the owner.
At least you hopefully have some sort of proof over their name and address.
Otherwise, they could leave the cash and ride off without you having their details and them re-registering the bike.
It could be a problem telling the DVLA that you are no longer the owner.
It's the test riders responsibility to ensure he is insured not yours. As long as he leaves (a copy is ok) both bits of his licence and the full cash for the bike, you can notify the police if you get an NIP or if he rides off you call the old bill letting them know the situation and that the bike has been nicked. That way you get a crime ref number to let the DVLA know, plus you have the cash. Just be careful as the chap now has your bike and knows you have the cash in the house
Surely if you have the money you can't say the bike has been nicked?
And anyway, nevermind whose insurance covers your bike to pay to fix it if he stacks it, but if he is not insured it is your insurance that will have to pay for whatever he stacks it into isn't it? I just wouldn't take the risk...
Surely if you have the money you can't say the bike has been nicked?
And anyway, nevermind whose insurance covers your bike to pay to fix it if he stacks it, but if he is not insured it is your insurance that will have to pay for whatever he stacks it into isn't it? I just wouldn't take the risk...
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The bike would still be legally considered stolen, as it was taken away (and not returned) without the owners permission to do so.
With regard to the insurance, the owners insurance is not liable since the named policy holder was not riding at the time and a policy is taken out on an indivdual (who is insured to ride a particular bike or other bikes on 3rd party only). It is possible to insure a vehicle, however, this is rarely done due to costs, as the risk for the insurance company is unknown, they don't know who will be driving/riding it. The only differnce is when it is a motor dealer insurance, which a private seller is unlikely to hold.
That said, if he were to stack the bike and didn't want to pay for the repair, then you would have to take legal action against them to reclaim the money, as your insurance wouldn't pay out (you weren't ridging) and he's not insured. Which woudl probably cost more than the bike in the first place!!
Beemer-5 said:
It's well dodgy at the best of times.
I don't let them out on my bike until they have bought it!
I don't let them out on my bike until they have bought it!
The other side of that is that I won't hand over thousands of pounds to a total stranger to purchase a bike that I have not yet ridden!
Buying/selling is a two way process and you have to have a bit of give and take on both sides. As a seller, I’m happy to let the potential buyer do whatever they want to the bike once they hand me an agreed amount of money. I’ll give that money back if the bike is returned to me in the same condition within an agreed amount of time. (Time enough for a reasonable test ride). If the bike is damaged during that time then I keep the money and the potential buyer keeps the bike! (I was trying to sell it after all!)
As a buyer I’m happy to leave a substantial amount of money with a seller as a ‘deposit’ while I test ride the bike. (I also leave another person who will ensure that the money doesn’t go ‘walkies’ while I’m out on the bike!) If I damage the bike while on the test ride I expect to pay for it.
Do remember that during a purchase both the buyer and the seller are generally total strangers. The seller has a bike they want to ‘protect’ but the buyer also has money they want to ‘protect’. Both sides should take reasonable precautions but they should also understand and make allowances for the precautions that the other side is taking.
black-k1 said:
Beemer-5 said:
It's well dodgy at the best of times.
I don't let them out on my bike until they have bought it!
I don't let them out on my bike until they have bought it!
The other side of that is that I won't hand over thousands of pounds to a total stranger to purchase a bike that I have not yet ridden!
Buying/selling is a two way process and you have to have a bit of give and take on both sides. As a seller, I’m happy to let the potential buyer do whatever they want to the bike once they hand me an agreed amount of money. I’ll give that money back if the bike is returned to me in the same condition within an agreed amount of time. (Time enough for a reasonable test ride). If the bike is damaged during that time then I keep the money and the potential buyer keeps the bike! (I was trying to sell it after all!)
As a buyer I’m happy to leave a substantial amount of money with a seller as a ‘deposit’ while I test ride the bike. (I also leave another person who will ensure that the money doesn’t go ‘walkies’ while I’m out on the bike!) If I damage the bike while on the test ride I expect to pay for it.
Do remember that during a purchase both the buyer and the seller are generally total strangers. The seller has a bike they want to ‘protect’ but the buyer also has money they want to ‘protect’. Both sides should take reasonable precautions but they should also understand and make allowances for the precautions that the other side is taking.
A good point well made
black-k1 said:
I’m no expert but I think as long as you ask him if he has insurance and he answers yes then I think you are legally covered as you have taken ‘reasonable steps’ to ensure he has insurance.
Its a little bit more involved than this.
For the seller to avoid committing an offence, established case law provides that the seller, prior to allowing a test ride, must make it an express condition of the terms of the 'loan' that the buyer provides his own insurance.
If the seller does not make it an express condition, then they run the risk of incurring a charge of 'causing or permitting to ride without a valid certificate of insurance' should anything go wrong on the test ride or the buyer gets himself a producer.
The penalties for causing or permitting are as severe as those for the actual act of driving / riding whilst uninsured.
Personally, I'd want to check and double check that a buyer was insured, verify his home address, the works AND I'd probably ask for a sizeable security before I'd let him road test my bike.
Its not being unduly mistrusting, IMO. Its ensuring you don't have any nasty surprises..
Edited by SS2. on Thursday 29th March 11:41
Thanks for the replies lads.
I should have said that the potential purchaser is a colleague of a good mate of mine, so short of him resigning and leaving the country all of a sudden, I know where to find him
As long as he leaves the purchase value of the bike with me, along with a drivers licence (just to be safe) then I'm happy I reckon.
I've already got a mail trail that shows that I have asked for them to take out suitable insurance on the bike in order to test ride it.
I should have said that the potential purchaser is a colleague of a good mate of mine, so short of him resigning and leaving the country all of a sudden, I know where to find him
As long as he leaves the purchase value of the bike with me, along with a drivers licence (just to be safe) then I'm happy I reckon.
I've already got a mail trail that shows that I have asked for them to take out suitable insurance on the bike in order to test ride it.
Edited by stig on Thursday 29th March 12:35
SS2. said:
black-k1 said:
I’m no expert but I think as long as you ask him if he has insurance and he answers yes then I think you are legally covered as you have taken ‘reasonable steps’ to ensure he has insurance.
Its a little bit more involved than this.
For the seller to avoid committing an offence, established case law provides that the seller, prior to allowing a test ride, must make it an express condition of the terms of the 'loan' that the buyer provides his own insurance.
If the seller does not make it an express condition, then they run the risk of incurring a charge of 'causing or permitting to ride without a valid certificate of insurance' should anything go wrong on the test ride or the buyer gets himself a producer.
The penalties for causing or permitting are as severe as those for the actual act of driving / riding whilst uninsured.
Personally, I'd want to check and double check that a buyer was insured, verify his home address, the works AND I'd probably ask for a sizeable security before I'd let him road test my bike.
Its not being unduly mistrusting, IMO. Its ensuring you don't have any nasty surprises.
I agree with your caution but, you must make a number of considerations both as the seller and as the buyer.
Current advice to the seller is to not meet the potential buyer where the bike is normally stored. (The potential buyer may not buy but instead come back later and help themselves!) Good advice however, you are now asking the potential buyer to meet a total stranger in a public place and then to give his name, address, insurance and license details. That total stranger, potentially with a stolen bike, will now have the name and address details of a location where a large amount of cash is being stored. Talk about an invite for a burglary! They will also potentially have enough information to open bank accounts etc. in your name!
As a buyer I would be happy to sign a piece of paper that says I am riding the bike under my own insurance. The seller should now be totally protected from any potential prosecution. I would not be happy giving out any personal details that are not already in the public domain as I do not want to make life any easier for any thieving scum to steal my money or my identity! Likewise, I would not want to part with my hard earned money for a bike that has serious problems that are only noticeable the first time the bike gets above 30mph when I know nothing about the seller other than the details on a potentially dodgy V5!
gordski said:
All this makes me think that part-x or selling to a dealer is easier. Yes you get less cash, but atleast you are certain of the cash!!!
If I get the purchaser to leave me the full value of the bike before the ride, other than forged notes, where's the problem???
A dealer will probably 'mug' you anyway - albeit legally
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