2008 Moto GP tyre rule changes........?
Discussion
.. an interesting quote from Kevin Schwantz regarding electronics in the class....
"I think it's a pretty general consensus across the board amongst the riders that electronics are making it very difficult to find the opportunity, to create the ability or the opportunity to pass somebody. Everybody gets on the gas at about the same time, the electronics all work just about the same, and going off into the corner it's now just a push come to shove on the brakes. I think the racing would be better without electronics. Yeah, I think seeing bikes sideways—even a couple of years ago, back when they were still 1000s, the racing was better, I think. Electronics are definitely the way everything's headed, and if you use Formula One as the motorsports Mecca, the draw, the thing everybody looks at, that racing's gotten boring too. The only place they pass now is in the pits, and unfortunately for MotoGP, we don't do pit stops. The only time they do is when it goes from wet to dry, or dry to wet. My opinion is, electronics have really made the average guy be able to go out and go fast, and everybody qualifies really, really well, and I think that we're paying too much attention to that.
When I rode 500s, the front row was typically a second. The second row was another second. If you were on the third row, we considered ourselves on the barbecue row, because that may as well be where we were, at home having a barbecue, because we'd never stand a chance from the third row. But seeing everybody, all 20 bikes within less than a second or a second and a half in qualifying, hasn't made the racing any better. We need to go back to letting these guys really ride these things, and wrestle these things around. The one thing it's going to do is, it's going to make it a whole lot less forgiving of a sport. You're going to start seeing more banged-up riders walking around.
Why? Because of all the power that the modern-day equipment has. With 250 horsepower, I doubt anybody would ever use all the power. You'd end up pulling plug wires, you'd end up doing something that wasn't proper traction control. When those things decide to snap sideways and spit you off, it's going to be a pretty hairy ride.
Q. Not taking anything away from MotoGP at all—at all—but there's still something missing in the way that a 500 went into the corner, in the middle of the corner, and exited the corner, the combination of finesse going in and complete brutality coming out. Your thoughts?
A. I think you'd start to see that finesse ... I think we're starting to see it a little bit more getting in, and to the middle. But getting rid of the electronics is what I think would be the fix. A smaller displacement, 800cc bikes, taking all the electronics away, you're not going to have all that saving grace helping you getting out. You're going to have to get in, you're going to have to pick that throttle up as soon as you can, you're going to have to start trying to finesse the thing out. Whereas now it's just kind of grab it and do what you want, hang on. But I think the electronics would bring a little bit of that mystique back that there used to be in 500cc Grand Prix racing.
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/Aug/070815-34....
"I think it's a pretty general consensus across the board amongst the riders that electronics are making it very difficult to find the opportunity, to create the ability or the opportunity to pass somebody. Everybody gets on the gas at about the same time, the electronics all work just about the same, and going off into the corner it's now just a push come to shove on the brakes. I think the racing would be better without electronics. Yeah, I think seeing bikes sideways—even a couple of years ago, back when they were still 1000s, the racing was better, I think. Electronics are definitely the way everything's headed, and if you use Formula One as the motorsports Mecca, the draw, the thing everybody looks at, that racing's gotten boring too. The only place they pass now is in the pits, and unfortunately for MotoGP, we don't do pit stops. The only time they do is when it goes from wet to dry, or dry to wet. My opinion is, electronics have really made the average guy be able to go out and go fast, and everybody qualifies really, really well, and I think that we're paying too much attention to that.
When I rode 500s, the front row was typically a second. The second row was another second. If you were on the third row, we considered ourselves on the barbecue row, because that may as well be where we were, at home having a barbecue, because we'd never stand a chance from the third row. But seeing everybody, all 20 bikes within less than a second or a second and a half in qualifying, hasn't made the racing any better. We need to go back to letting these guys really ride these things, and wrestle these things around. The one thing it's going to do is, it's going to make it a whole lot less forgiving of a sport. You're going to start seeing more banged-up riders walking around.
Why? Because of all the power that the modern-day equipment has. With 250 horsepower, I doubt anybody would ever use all the power. You'd end up pulling plug wires, you'd end up doing something that wasn't proper traction control. When those things decide to snap sideways and spit you off, it's going to be a pretty hairy ride.
Q. Not taking anything away from MotoGP at all—at all—but there's still something missing in the way that a 500 went into the corner, in the middle of the corner, and exited the corner, the combination of finesse going in and complete brutality coming out. Your thoughts?
A. I think you'd start to see that finesse ... I think we're starting to see it a little bit more getting in, and to the middle. But getting rid of the electronics is what I think would be the fix. A smaller displacement, 800cc bikes, taking all the electronics away, you're not going to have all that saving grace helping you getting out. You're going to have to get in, you're going to have to pick that throttle up as soon as you can, you're going to have to start trying to finesse the thing out. Whereas now it's just kind of grab it and do what you want, hang on. But I think the electronics would bring a little bit of that mystique back that there used to be in 500cc Grand Prix racing.
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/Aug/070815-34....
Edited by F.M on Thursday 6th September 21:28
Rawwr said:
You can't 'get back to basics' in a prototype racing series, it defeats the whole purpose of it!
While I understand what you're saying and you're right in a way I personally watch motogp because I like watching people race each other on bikes and not to watch bike race each other with people on them. I don't really want to watch a single make series but don't necessarily believe that the best series in the world should be about the best bikes in the world but the best riders in the world. If that means ditching the electronics and effectively limiting the technological advances that can be used then so be it. While you could argue that the prototype racing series provides development for technology that eventually filters down to us I don't see that as being either necessary or desirable. The technology will develop anyway so why spoil the premier rider series by turning it in to a developmental test bed like F1.macdeb said:
Stoners got the talent and deserves the title, but how would he fare on say, Rossi's bike? Could you be sure he'd be second in championship?
Well, it's never going to happen so we'll never know. What if Stoner was on Capirossi's bike? Could you be sure he'd be eighth in the championship?dern said:
While I understand what you're saying and you're right in a way I personally watch motogp because I like watching people race each other on bikes and not to watch bike race each other with people on them. I don't really want to watch a single make series but don't necessarily believe that the best series in the world should be about the best bikes in the world but the best riders in the world. If that means ditching the electronics and effectively limiting the technological advances that can be used then so be it. While you could argue that the prototype racing series provides development for technology that eventually filters down to us I don't see that as being either necessary or desirable. The technology will develop anyway so why spoil the premier rider series by turning it in to a developmental test bed like F1.
That's what I was trying to imply. It's not exclusively about the bikes, the riders, the tyres or team mascots: It's about the variables. In any championship where you have such a variety of factors and in the birth year of a new rule change, things are going to be haywire - it's a simply unavoidable fact. We saw it with the change to the 990s and I'm sure we'll see it again in the future. In a couple of years you'll probably look back at 2007 as a mental development year for the sport and a statistical salad of results, which you can see to certain degrees in other transitional years.All the 2007 season is doing is preparing us for the season-proper: 2008. You can be sure that Michelin are going to take advantage of winter testing in the same way that Yamaha and Honda are. Not that Ducati and Suzuki are going to sit about and see what happens, either. The ante rises all the time but not all players can win the bet. Ducati went in with a big raise this year and it appears to have worked. Next year they'll be called... or they'll raise some more.
But the fact remains, the racing is crap, yes Ducati have an absolutely stonking bike, and Stoner, IMO would be up there even if he was still on the Honda, all this talk about prototype racing bikes where money is no object, yet they are castrated in tyre choice. the Japanese have car factories in Europe, surely they could do the same with a tyre plant, then they would all have a base in Europe.
And all this electronics malarkey, as Schwantz said in F.M's link, needs to go, if the bikes are to powerful, then the smart one's would reduce power till it was usable.
It's not "rocket science".
And all this electronics malarkey, as Schwantz said in F.M's link, needs to go, if the bikes are to powerful, then the smart one's would reduce power till it was usable.
It's not "rocket science".
Biker's Nemesis said:
yet they are castrated in tyre choice. the Japanese have car factories in Europe, surely they could do the same with a tyre plant, then they would all have a base in Europe.
Not sure if I get you there, do you mean if the Japanese tyre manufacturers have a base in Europe they would be better? Because Bridgestone the Japanese manufacturer is clearly better than the European Dunlops and Michelins so they don't need to come to Europe. Or did I read into that something else?FourWheelDrift said:
Biker's Nemesis said:
yet they are castrated in tyre choice. the Japanese have car factories in Europe, surely they could do the same with a tyre plant, then they would all have a base in Europe.
Not sure if I get you there, do you mean if the Japanese tyre manufacturers have a base in Europe they would be better? Because Bridgestone the Japanese manufacturer is clearly better than the European Dunlops and Michelins so they don't need to come to Europe. Or did I read into that something else?John.
macdeb said:
As for the third point, riders can now come round a corner and hold throttle wide open, one less skill involved. [/footnote]
You are kidding right? So on a Motogp bike you can reach mid corner and just whack the throttle wide open and ride straight out of the corner super fast with no issues? I think you are over-estimating the electronics, they have anti-spin control not anti-crash control. Dare2Fail said:
macdeb said:
As for the third point, riders can now come round a corner and hold throttle wide open, one less skill involved. [/footnote]
You are kidding right? So on a Motogp bike you can reach mid corner and just whack the throttle wide open and ride straight out of the corner super fast with no issues? I think you are over-estimating the electronics, they have anti-spin control not anti-crash control. Biker's Nemesis said:
Dare2Fail said:
macdeb said:
As for the third point, riders can now come round a corner and hold throttle wide open, one less skill involved. [/footnote]
You are kidding right? So on a Motogp bike you can reach mid corner and just whack the throttle wide open and ride straight out of the corner super fast with no issues? I think you are over-estimating the electronics, they have anti-spin control not anti-crash control. 
tting the throttle wide open. If it was that easy then I could be a MotoGP, WSB and BSB God! Dare2Fail said:
Biker's Nemesis said:
Dare2Fail said:
macdeb said:
As for the third point, riders can now come round a corner and hold throttle wide open, one less skill involved. [/footnote]
You are kidding right? So on a Motogp bike you can reach mid corner and just whack the throttle wide open and ride straight out of the corner super fast with no issues? I think you are over-estimating the electronics, they have anti-spin control not anti-crash control. tting the throttle wide open. If it was that easy then I could be a MotoGP, WSB and BSB God! Rawwr said:
macdeb said:
Stoners got the talent and deserves the title, but how would he fare on say, Rossi's bike? Could you be sure he'd be second in championship?
Well, it's never going to happen so we'll never know. What if Stoner was on Capirossi's bike? Could you be sure he'd be eighth in the championship?As for comments on traction control, maybe I oversimplified it but, they are taking one skill out of it. If it goes on, we could get better viewing using an 'x-box'.
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