Bikers - can you explain?
Discussion
FWIW.........I find my peripheral vision is far greater wearing a helmet. There aren't any door pillars & when I look over my shoulder there again is no obstructions to my field of vision (apart from of course the part of the helmet that isn't the visor 
)
I know my mirrors are pretty useless, so take that into account in my observations........strangely I find myself always looking over my shoulder in the car......it's suprising what you see. Even when you do have a rear view mirror there's all sorts of things going on in your blind spots
) I know my mirrors are pretty useless, so take that into account in my observations........strangely I find myself always looking over my shoulder in the car......it's suprising what you see. Even when you do have a rear view mirror there's all sorts of things going on in your blind spots
simpo two said:
I'm not going to come over to the car board & call you all a bunch of boring, pipe smoking, slipper wearing, old duffers with nodding dogs & panama hats on yer parcel shelves - well I might, you never know!!
On the Griff forum? I'd like to see you try! But you're very welcome to say hello
Good natter - I like your style. I think mutual respect and awareness is the agreed order of the day. And plenty of loud pedal. Or right wrist, whatever you guys use (dunno, my last bike had three gears and pedals!)
Yeah, agreed, I try & take people as I find them....
As for moving over to the right hand side of the road when approaching a left hand bend.... the reason is EXACLTY to avoid a large load or driver who may go over the centre markings into your side - it's obvious, also bikes 'lean' - well SOME do!! you have to account for this when cornering.... don't want your head over the line!!
aNNA
Also on the bike, our heads are usually a bit higher than a car driver's and so we can often see much further ahead than someone simply not being able to see much beyond the car in front.
Not always the case but often we can see maybe 10 or 20 cars ahead braking, whereas the driver of a car may only see 1 or 2 cars ahead.
Not always the case but often we can see maybe 10 or 20 cars ahead braking, whereas the driver of a car may only see 1 or 2 cars ahead.
hi simpo:
at an attempt to suggest a reason: this weekend was the first opportunity for most bikers to run in there new performance toys. this usually entails a max of 70mph for 600 miles, until the first service at 600miles.
some take it too literally an will stick at 70mph dead on. add to that the appalling mirrors, and the 2nd biker may have assumed you were driving too close to his mate/wife.
bikers tend to be the type that use full brakes or nothing, and the reaction tims you would need require a good safe distance to avoid running them (us) over.
alternatively, they could have just moved out your way in the first place and just let you get on with it (my personal preference)
Im not condoning the suggestion above, Im just aware the way some bikers "see it".
>> Edited by stooz on Monday 26th April 14:13
simpo said:
However, the bike in front of me doesn't go haring off, as one would expect, but stays plumb on 70. Eventually we get past the traffic and he (grudgingly) pulls over - just enough to let me through
at an attempt to suggest a reason: this weekend was the first opportunity for most bikers to run in there new performance toys. this usually entails a max of 70mph for 600 miles, until the first service at 600miles.
some take it too literally an will stick at 70mph dead on. add to that the appalling mirrors, and the 2nd biker may have assumed you were driving too close to his mate/wife.
bikers tend to be the type that use full brakes or nothing, and the reaction tims you would need require a good safe distance to avoid running them (us) over.
alternatively, they could have just moved out your way in the first place and just let you get on with it (my personal preference)
Im not condoning the suggestion above, Im just aware the way some bikers "see it".
>> Edited by stooz on Monday 26th April 14:13
Andy Mac said:
[P.S. the reason that bikers do this is to:
- Get the best visiblity (ie seeing round vehicles & making sure the driver can see you in his wing mirror)
- Be at the safest point in the road (ie to avoid junctions, moving to the right for approaching left handers & vice versa).
- To make sure car drivers coming in opposite direction can see you at their earliest opportunity!
- To avoid bad road surfaces!!
If you stop to think about WHY bikers use the road like this it will make sense, and may even improve your car driving (it has mine!).
I can see your point... But do you really think moving to the right hand side of the road as you are coming up to a left hander is the best option? I'd hate to think a truck, or a wide load was heading round the corner...As for weaving all over the road, you really can't do that in a car, which was my point.
This method of observation is taught at advanced courses/training/assesments. It is used by the police and is noted in the Roadcraft book. I believe that this system of observation is used in the car manual also. It optimises your view around left handers to be able to anticipate possible hazards earlier than you would if you were taking a normal 'line' through the bend. As someone else has already mentioned, there are tell tale signs for oncoming vehicles.
As for the greater observation skills, I have driven fast cars and bikes both and find heightened senses well above that of a car when riding the bike. To a point where even sense of smell is enhanced. Perfume from a pedestrian, cigarette smoke, etc. Presumably from the body being that much more alert. In a car I look at about 3-5 manouvres ahead, on a bike I am trying to anticipate my next 5 and more. Life preservation!
Simpo, I have no defense for the experience with the two riders that you had. Only I hope that all bikers arent tarred with the same brush. Spring is here and 'silly season' has already started. I followed a tattoo'd chap wearing shorts and t-shirt out of Reigate on Saturday on his new R1 and I dont think his front wheel came down before 120mph. Great wheelie, just hope he can afford the leathers soon.
WTF are these (non-riders) talking about? I they can't comprehend simple concepts such as the moving towards the centre line to take a left hander, etc, then I don't really want to be on the road when they are. Just cos someone has a 'sportscar' does not mean that they are an experienced driver, or have any ability.
Have these people ever worn a crash helmet, or been on a track? They will find that a bike helmet does not infact restrict peripheral vision at all (some car helmets do) as their aperatures are large enough to enable you to see out of the side as far as your eyeballs will usefully go...
If they have driven on a track, they will appreciate the concept of lines and how a bike can use this sort of approach on the road to good effect. This CAN also be done in a car, but obviously you have less room to manoevre in a single carriageway.
Do we really want to allow such narrow minded, simple people to have control of powerful cars....?
PS. Yes, I do own/ride/race both.
Have these people ever worn a crash helmet, or been on a track? They will find that a bike helmet does not infact restrict peripheral vision at all (some car helmets do) as their aperatures are large enough to enable you to see out of the side as far as your eyeballs will usefully go...
If they have driven on a track, they will appreciate the concept of lines and how a bike can use this sort of approach on the road to good effect. This CAN also be done in a car, but obviously you have less room to manoevre in a single carriageway.
Do we really want to allow such narrow minded, simple people to have control of powerful cars....?
PS. Yes, I do own/ride/race both.
is it just me, or does the holier than thou attitude of bikers get a bit boring after a bit? I've driven allsorts of cars.. crappy ones, to very fats ones, and never had a crash, or even been in a 'incident', so why do bikers seem to think that they are so much better? i understand you are perched on the wee bike and you wil have better veiw, etc, but you always go on a bout being more aware, and soooo much better than car drivers, etc..its boring..blah blah...
Mr Mac
I think this debate has been conducted with very little 'attitude' and much patience - considering the narrow minded viewpoint held by some!
I certainly do not have a holier than thou attitude - and I am warmly receptive to any new skills that I can learn in order to constantly improve my riding and ability.
Perhaps it is the simple fact that 99% of bikers ride a bike as WELL as a car that they can then reflect and say that they have improved their skills and awareness due to their biking not driving!!!
I think this debate has been conducted with very little 'attitude' and much patience - considering the narrow minded viewpoint held by some!
I certainly do not have a holier than thou attitude - and I am warmly receptive to any new skills that I can learn in order to constantly improve my riding and ability.
Perhaps it is the simple fact that 99% of bikers ride a bike as WELL as a car that they can then reflect and say that they have improved their skills and awareness due to their biking not driving!!!
Andy mac said:
why do bikers seem to think that they are so much better?
With due respect to the majority of experienced cage/rag-top drivers I know exist on here, it's becuase it's a known fact that riding a bike takes a fair amount more skill than driving a car.
Obviously this doesn't apply to the numpties who couldn't ride a bike for toffee
Andy mac said:
is it just me, or does the holier than thou attitude of bikers get a bit boring after a bit? I've driven allsorts of cars.. crappy ones, to very fats ones, and never had a crash, or even been in a 'incident', so why do bikers seem to think that they are so much better? i understand you are perched on the wee bike and you wil have better veiw, etc, but you always go on a bout being more aware, and soooo much better than car drivers, etc..its boring..blah blah...
Not holier than thou.
But 0-100 in 7 seconds and 100-0 in 5 seconds (average superbike) will generally take more concentration than 0-100 in 13 seconds (average 300bhp car) 100-0 in 4.5 seconds makes for a 5.5 second difference in time allocated for thinking/reacting. Of course motorcyclist instintive reactions are going to be superior taking into consideration the riders experience/training/road knowledge.
I would say that I am more mentally exhausted after riding my Duke for 30 minutes than I was caning my M3 up to 160mph for 3 hours. I would ask you to at least test ride the likes of a 600 or above sports bike and bring a little objective matter to this discussion.
andy_mac, it is you. I haven't been a biker for quite a while, but I am 100% certain that I am a better driver for having been one.
Sure, just cocking your leg over one doesn't make you a roadcraft god, but surviving for 10 years as a daily biker means you are either very very lucky, or yes, you know a lot more than the average motorist about road safety.
I personally feel I would have been totally unprepared for, and probably dangerous in, my TVR had I not previously been a biker.
Sure, just cocking your leg over one doesn't make you a roadcraft god, but surviving for 10 years as a daily biker means you are either very very lucky, or yes, you know a lot more than the average motorist about road safety.
I personally feel I would have been totally unprepared for, and probably dangerous in, my TVR had I not previously been a biker.
The reality is numpty bikers don't last long. Numpty car drivers can survive decades never having an accident but causing plenty, and even more have lots of prangs in their cars without any serious damage to self - isn't passive safety great?
Crashes on bikes hurt, at best. They maim, often, they kill, often. [edited to add: Well, just once actually, per individual, but you know what I mean]) It doesn't take long as a biker for defensive driving to become second nature; it is after all paramount for survival. Conversely, few car drivers even have a grasp of the concept. Questions like "why wander across to the wrong side of the road" serve to illustrate this.
On a slightly more practical level, the training required to get a bike licence would simply not be acceptable to the car driving public; it would not be tolerated. Too many people would simply not get a licence.
It stands to reason that even at a novice level a biker will be more skilled and aware than a novice car driver (because of the extra complusory training); an advantage that complacency will compound for most car drivers, whose skill levels will often degenerate from the meagre attainment of "passing the test". Trust me, every day is a learning experience as a biker. Or, as suggested, try it yourself. Get a bike. Your car driving will improve, guaranteed.
>> Edited by victormeldrew on Monday 26th April 19:32
>> Edited by victormeldrew on Monday 26th April 19:33
Crashes on bikes hurt, at best. They maim, often, they kill, often. [edited to add: Well, just once actually, per individual, but you know what I mean
]) It doesn't take long as a biker for defensive driving to become second nature; it is after all paramount for survival. Conversely, few car drivers even have a grasp of the concept. Questions like "why wander across to the wrong side of the road" serve to illustrate this. On a slightly more practical level, the training required to get a bike licence would simply not be acceptable to the car driving public; it would not be tolerated. Too many people would simply not get a licence.
It stands to reason that even at a novice level a biker will be more skilled and aware than a novice car driver (because of the extra complusory training); an advantage that complacency will compound for most car drivers, whose skill levels will often degenerate from the meagre attainment of "passing the test". Trust me, every day is a learning experience as a biker. Or, as suggested, try it yourself. Get a bike. Your car driving will improve, guaranteed.
>> Edited by victormeldrew on Monday 26th April 19:32
>> Edited by victormeldrew on Monday 26th April 19:33
Andy mac said:
is it just me, or does the holier than thou attitude of bikers get a bit boring after a bit? I've driven allsorts of cars.. crappy ones, to very fats ones, and never had a crash, or even been in a 'incident', so why do bikers seem to think that they are so much better? i understand you are perched on the wee bike and you wil have better veiw, etc, but you always go on a bout being more aware, and soooo much better than car drivers, etc..its boring..blah blah...
Andy, as a biker and a performance car driver for more years than I care to remember I really can see both sides of this. Yes, many bikers will have commendable roadcraft and extremely high levels of awareness and forward planning, both on their bike and in their cars (most of us rather like staying alive!) But, yes, I agree that many bikers adopt a 'two wheels good, four wheels bad' attitude that does nothing to promote understanding of sharing the road with bikes amongst non-biking car drivers. Additionally, we have to be honest and say there are good and bad bikers just as there are good and bad drivers.
So, to summarise, lets avoid those stereo-types and accept that- biker or driver - we all have a right to use the same roads, so lets think about what each other need from our fellow road users and drive/ride accordingly
Happy summer motoring/biking to one and all ::-):
simpo two said:
I'm not going to come over to the car board & call you all a bunch of boring, pipe smoking, slipper wearing, old duffers with nodding dogs & panama hats on yer parcel shelves - well I might, you never know!!
On the Griff forum? I'd like to see you try! But you're very welcome to say hello
Good natter - I like your style. I think mutual respect and awareness is the agreed order of the day. And plenty of loud pedal. Or right wrist, whatever you guys use (dunno, my last bike had three gears and pedals!)
I'm an occasional pipe-smoker, Griff and ZRX1100 owner. So there!
Mind ewe, I like cider, real ale, proper steak pies and have a beard too.
Guess there's no hope for me at all, is there?
they sound like knobs to me!
When I've been in a fast car, I've always had gentle banter & laughs with the bikers, and when I'm on the bike, I always have a laugh with the drivers. Best of both worlds being a rider & a driver.... live & let live, unless you're in my way of course, and then there is NOTHING worse than a pratt on a Blade who won't admit they are crap, and won't conceed a corner without trying to embarrass you on the next straight. Well big deal, just 'cos they have the power, doesn't make 'em good riders! complaint upheld !!!
When I've been in a fast car, I've always had gentle banter & laughs with the bikers, and when I'm on the bike, I always have a laugh with the drivers. Best of both worlds being a rider & a driver.... live & let live, unless you're in my way of course, and then there is NOTHING worse than a pratt on a Blade who won't admit they are crap, and won't conceed a corner without trying to embarrass you on the next straight. Well big deal, just 'cos they have the power, doesn't make 'em good riders! complaint upheld !!!
Hertsbiker..... I think we're all pretty much agreed there are crap bikers and crap car drivers out there! & mutual respect & understanding is called for here - I resented the question "why are ALL bikers holier than thou" cos they're not!
I was overtaken in the most outrageous manner on Sunday by a gixxer thou! he cut me up badly, shocked some of our possé as they didn't see them coming up behind, they rode so close I felt the slipstream, they overtook at horrendous speeds on a corner as I was moving across - I'm the first to agree that there are plenty of knobbers out there - but not all of us which is why I've spent time debating the issue.
My pipe & slippers comment was being toungue in cheek - lol
Anyway, I'm off now to Halfords to buy a travel blanket, picnic & flask set in tartan for my new S2k!
What driving gloves would everyone recommend?
I was overtaken in the most outrageous manner on Sunday by a gixxer thou! he cut me up badly, shocked some of our possé as they didn't see them coming up behind, they rode so close I felt the slipstream, they overtook at horrendous speeds on a corner as I was moving across - I'm the first to agree that there are plenty of knobbers out there - but not all of us which is why I've spent time debating the issue.
My pipe & slippers comment was being toungue in cheek - lol
Anyway, I'm off now to Halfords to buy a travel blanket, picnic & flask set in tartan for my new S2k!
What driving gloves would everyone recommend?
Gassing Station | Biker Banter | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff