Starter/Battery Cable (How Long?)
Discussion
ChimpOnGas said:
That's it, well done, spot on Phil 
Your comments are the best & most concise conclusion to all this I've ever seen
All I would add is that the immobiliser is far and away the most likely cause of what is commonly referred to as "The Hot Start Fault".
Carl Baker made a living out of the fact TVR wired the immobiliser incorrectly, he told me as much when I discussed with him at length what I'd found on my car.
If you look way back at discussions on TVR reliability it was also a big problem when the cars were current, now look at the last year of PH & amazingly you'll see a huge number of people are still suffering from the problem.
All the evidence suggests the immobiliser, or more accurately the way TVR wired it, & the fault that creates, represents the largest cause of Chim or Griff no starts by a country mile.
If you really want to make these cars start reliably hot or cold just follow the following 4 steps.
Step 1: Bypass the immobiliser on the starter solenoid circuit or replace the entire alarm system properly
Step 2: Improve the tired old feeble hugely long battery to starter cable with something better
Step 3: Add in an additional earth from the battery neg terminal to the engine block
Step 4: Add a suitable relay to the starter solenoid circuit where TVR neglected to fit one
As long as your battery & starter motor are in good shape you can say goodbye your TVR failure to start issues for good
You will end up with a Chim or Griff that cranks like you never thought possible, You'll also be improving it's reliability by a 1000%.
Finally it seems these cars do seem to suffer parasitic battery drains more than most.
This can be due to many reasons, so each car needs to be assessed in isolation by a competent auto electrician.
I traced my parasitic drain to the alarm, or more specifically the microwave sensor.
This added more weight to the argument for getting the complete alarm system professionally replaced.
However as an interim solution I just added a Battery Brain, which worked so well it a solution I would recommend to anyone with the battery drain problem but who doesn't necessarily have a spare £600 for a new alarm/immobiliser system.
Your comments are the best & most concise conclusion to all this I've ever seen
All I would add is that the immobiliser is far and away the most likely cause of what is commonly referred to as "The Hot Start Fault".
Carl Baker made a living out of the fact TVR wired the immobiliser incorrectly, he told me as much when I discussed with him at length what I'd found on my car.
If you look way back at discussions on TVR reliability it was also a big problem when the cars were current, now look at the last year of PH & amazingly you'll see a huge number of people are still suffering from the problem.
All the evidence suggests the immobiliser, or more accurately the way TVR wired it, & the fault that creates, represents the largest cause of Chim or Griff no starts by a country mile.
If you really want to make these cars start reliably hot or cold just follow the following 4 steps.
Step 1: Bypass the immobiliser on the starter solenoid circuit or replace the entire alarm system properly
Step 2: Improve the tired old feeble hugely long battery to starter cable with something better
Step 3: Add in an additional earth from the battery neg terminal to the engine block
Step 4: Add a suitable relay to the starter solenoid circuit where TVR neglected to fit one
As long as your battery & starter motor are in good shape you can say goodbye your TVR failure to start issues for good
You will end up with a Chim or Griff that cranks like you never thought possible, You'll also be improving it's reliability by a 1000%.
Finally it seems these cars do seem to suffer parasitic battery drains more than most.
This can be due to many reasons, so each car needs to be assessed in isolation by a competent auto electrician.
I traced my parasitic drain to the alarm, or more specifically the microwave sensor.
This added more weight to the argument for getting the complete alarm system professionally replaced.
However as an interim solution I just added a Battery Brain, which worked so well it a solution I would recommend to anyone with the battery drain problem but who doesn't necessarily have a spare £600 for a new alarm/immobiliser system.
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Sunday 3rd March 16:55
[quote=ChimpOnGas]
That's it, well done, spot on Phil
Your comments are the best & most concise conclusion to all this I've ever seen
All I would add is that the immobiliser is far and away the most likely cause of what is commonly referred to as "The Hot Start Fault".
Carl Baker made a living out of the fact TVR wired the immobiliser incorrectly, he told me as much when I discussed with him at length what I'd found on my car.
If you look way back at discussions on TVR reliability it was also a big problem when the cars were current, now look at the last year of PH & amazingly you'll see a huge number of people are still suffering from the problem.
All the evidence suggests the immobiliser, or more accurately the way TVR wired it, & the fault that creates, represents the largest cause of Chim or Griff no starts by a country mile.
If you really want to make these cars start reliably hot or cold just follow the following 4 steps.
Step 1: Bypass the immobiliser on the starter solenoid circuit or replace the entire alarm system properly
Step 2: Improve the tired old feeble hugely long battery to starter cable with something better
Step 3: Add in an additional earth from the battery neg terminal to the engine block
Step 4: Add a suitable relay to the starter solenoid circuit where TVR neglected to fit one
As long as your battery & starter motor are in good shape you can say goodbye your TVR failure to start issues for good
You will end up with a Chim or Griff that cranks like you never thought possible, You'll also be improving it's reliability by a 1000%.
Finally it seems these cars do seem to suffer parasitic battery drains more than most.
This can be due to many reasons, so each car needs to be assessed in isolation by a competent auto electrician.
I traced my parasitic drain to the alarm, or more specifically the microwave sensor.
This added more weight to the argument for getting the complete alarm system professionally replaced.
However as an interim solution I just added a Battery Brain, which worked so well it a solution I would recommend to anyone with the battery drain problem but who doesn't necessarily have a spare £600 for a new alarm/immobiliser system.
3 and 4 only needed. Not sure why Carl did not replace your immobiliser(money tight for everyone) many ocassision after doing that he then got people to get in touch to do the hot start mod. Sorry to go on, do the mod to get to original spec, fit the relay. Go to halfords , buy a relay, go to griff or chim pages of how to do it or email me, cost probably 15 quid. I was asked to stop providing this mod, sales on starter motors were going down!
That's it, well done, spot on Phil
Your comments are the best & most concise conclusion to all this I've ever seen
All I would add is that the immobiliser is far and away the most likely cause of what is commonly referred to as "The Hot Start Fault".
Carl Baker made a living out of the fact TVR wired the immobiliser incorrectly, he told me as much when I discussed with him at length what I'd found on my car.
If you look way back at discussions on TVR reliability it was also a big problem when the cars were current, now look at the last year of PH & amazingly you'll see a huge number of people are still suffering from the problem.
All the evidence suggests the immobiliser, or more accurately the way TVR wired it, & the fault that creates, represents the largest cause of Chim or Griff no starts by a country mile.
If you really want to make these cars start reliably hot or cold just follow the following 4 steps.
Step 1: Bypass the immobiliser on the starter solenoid circuit or replace the entire alarm system properly
Step 2: Improve the tired old feeble hugely long battery to starter cable with something better
Step 3: Add in an additional earth from the battery neg terminal to the engine block
Step 4: Add a suitable relay to the starter solenoid circuit where TVR neglected to fit one
As long as your battery & starter motor are in good shape you can say goodbye your TVR failure to start issues for good
You will end up with a Chim or Griff that cranks like you never thought possible, You'll also be improving it's reliability by a 1000%.
Finally it seems these cars do seem to suffer parasitic battery drains more than most.
This can be due to many reasons, so each car needs to be assessed in isolation by a competent auto electrician.
I traced my parasitic drain to the alarm, or more specifically the microwave sensor.
This added more weight to the argument for getting the complete alarm system professionally replaced.
However as an interim solution I just added a Battery Brain, which worked so well it a solution I would recommend to anyone with the battery drain problem but who doesn't necessarily have a spare £600 for a new alarm/immobiliser system.
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Sunday 3rd March 16:55
[/quote3 and 4 only needed. Not sure why Carl did not replace your immobiliser(money tight for everyone) many ocassision after doing that he then got people to get in touch to do the hot start mod. Sorry to go on, do the mod to get to original spec, fit the relay. Go to halfords , buy a relay, go to griff or chim pages of how to do it or email me, cost probably 15 quid. I was asked to stop providing this mod, sales on starter motors were going down!
Edited by David Beer on Sunday 3rd March 20:12
hi folks
I've read some of these articles but still none the wiser with my TVR starting issue.
I have a 96 chim 3.0 and a new meta alarm, new battery (all 2 years ago replaced)
the relays both click in and I've also tried bypassing them with a direct cable, to confirm.
Fuel pump primes ok nice solid sound from relays and fuel pump.
But no sound from the starter or solenoid.
How can i diagnose if this is ? is it earthing, poor wiring, starter .
I don't have a wiring diagram so don't know where to start.
Alternative does anyone know a good TVR garage this side of town (west london) its too cold outside and i don't have a garage :-)
many thanks
I've read some of these articles but still none the wiser with my TVR starting issue.
I have a 96 chim 3.0 and a new meta alarm, new battery (all 2 years ago replaced)
the relays both click in and I've also tried bypassing them with a direct cable, to confirm.
Fuel pump primes ok nice solid sound from relays and fuel pump.
But no sound from the starter or solenoid.
How can i diagnose if this is ? is it earthing, poor wiring, starter .
I don't have a wiring diagram so don't know where to start.
Alternative does anyone know a good TVR garage this side of town (west london) its too cold outside and i don't have a garage :-)
many thanks
My suspicions would be the starter motor. When mine went, it was completely dead. No click, no turn over, nothing.
Borrow a set of jump leads and go straight from another (or yours if you know it's good) battery to the starter motor. Be careful if you're not confident in what you're doing. Leave it immobilised or pull the fuel relay because it may start! If it spins you have a wiring issue.
Borrow a set of jump leads and go straight from another (or yours if you know it's good) battery to the starter motor. Be careful if you're not confident in what you're doing. Leave it immobilised or pull the fuel relay because it may start! If it spins you have a wiring issue.
Holy thread resurrection!!
Um, I'm not able to do much to our Chim at the moment because I had my shoulder rebuilt 2 weeks ago and I'm gonna be in this rather bulky immobiliser sling for another month (booooo), so I' resorting to asking rather than trying to check for myself:
Is the battery cable on the Chim ***really*** 7ft long as standard?!?! I reckon the battery is no more than 2ft from the starter?
Once I'm fixed I'll be doing a MS3X conversion which will doubtless snowball into a rewire, so I might address that then...
Already found rat sh*t under the dash top...... not joking. found a chewed wire too...
Um, I'm not able to do much to our Chim at the moment because I had my shoulder rebuilt 2 weeks ago and I'm gonna be in this rather bulky immobiliser sling for another month (booooo), so I' resorting to asking rather than trying to check for myself:
Is the battery cable on the Chim ***really*** 7ft long as standard?!?! I reckon the battery is no more than 2ft from the starter?
Once I'm fixed I'll be doing a MS3X conversion which will doubtless snowball into a rewire, so I might address that then...
Already found rat sh*t under the dash top...... not joking. found a chewed wire too...
Hi I have just replaced mine while doing a body off restoration.
YES it is approximately 7ft - 2.1m - 86" long.
I think approx. 1m is in the foot well from the back of the dashboard to the battery + to allow the battery to be moved while still connected. Then another 1m to exit of the foot well through the bulk head over the bell housing down the side of the chassis to the starter motor.
As the crow flies it is not far but it has to go around the houses.
Here is the size difference between the old 20mm² and new cable 50mm² !!
YES it is approximately 7ft - 2.1m - 86" long.
I think approx. 1m is in the foot well from the back of the dashboard to the battery + to allow the battery to be moved while still connected. Then another 1m to exit of the foot well through the bulk head over the bell housing down the side of the chassis to the starter motor.
As the crow flies it is not far but it has to go around the houses.
Here is the size difference between the old 20mm² and new cable 50mm² !!
At best TVR's 7ft run of 20mm3 cable could really only be described as marginal when new, however after many years of service internal corrosion is inevitable so the resistance in that starter cable will very likely be sufficient to cause slow cranking or no cranking at all.
Of course you could fit the worlds thickest starter cable and it would give no improvement whatsoever if the earth side of the circuit is not in good order too, study the earth return TVR gave us and you'll discover the following:
1. Another equally thin but admitedly much shorter cable running from the block close to the oil pressure switch to a stud on the O/S outrigger diagonal which is subject to a lot of spray and general road debris that in the UK contains corrosive salts.
2. From this exposed stud the electrons must travel down the corrosion prone steel chassis some 5ft as the crow flies to where yet another thin cable is attached to the N/S body mounting point on the transmission tunnel.
3. This bolt can work loose causing a poor connection, even if it is tight the electrons still have to pass down the last 3ft run of cable before finally reaching the battery negative terminal.
To be honest the earth return part of the high amp starter circuit is as bad if not often worse than the positive side, add them together and throw in a little corrosion and the entire hugely long 15ft loop is subject to enormous resistance so its no wonder Chimaera & Griffiths suffer starting issues.
As part of your starter cable upgrade you really need to complete the job by running a thicker cable from that earth stud on the outrigger to the block (an alternator mounting bolt is a good choice), then run a second thick cable from there directly back to the battery negative terminal. Like this you'll not only enjoy much stronger and reliable starting but you'll likely see othe benefits relating to the other sensors ect that are earthed at the outrigger stud.
Now turn your attentions to the immobiliser, TVR incorrectly wired it so internal immobiliser relay failures are common. Replacement is the best option here and Abacus Alarms offer a plug and play kit thats designed in such a way as to make it impossible for TVR's mistake cannot be repeated. Alternatively and if money is tight the immobiliser can be bypassed in such a way as to still retain a line of defence against theft, if anyone would like to know how to complete this bypass they should PM me for my easy to follow instructions and I will share by return.
Once the immobiliser issue is fixed and both the live/earth elements of the high amp starter circuit are uprated a vehicle that has a reputation for starting issues suddenly becomes the most reliable cranking car ever. As the author of this post I did all this over seven years ago and have never since had a single cranking issue.
But don't just do the starter cable, be sure to upgrade the earth return as described too or you'll only be doing half the job and you'll not get the full benefit, finish off by addressing the immobiliser issue and you'll be doing the best things to improve the reliability of your TVR by far.
Finally forget the hot start kit, it really is an unnecessary collection of wires and a relay that only adds anothe point of potential failure, its designer sold it as a cure all for Chimaera/Griff starting issues when the truth is he failed to understand the real reasons our cars suffer the problem. If you have a hot start kit, I'd rip it out as part of the proper package of improvements as described and you'll never look back.
Of course you could fit the worlds thickest starter cable and it would give no improvement whatsoever if the earth side of the circuit is not in good order too, study the earth return TVR gave us and you'll discover the following:
1. Another equally thin but admitedly much shorter cable running from the block close to the oil pressure switch to a stud on the O/S outrigger diagonal which is subject to a lot of spray and general road debris that in the UK contains corrosive salts.
2. From this exposed stud the electrons must travel down the corrosion prone steel chassis some 5ft as the crow flies to where yet another thin cable is attached to the N/S body mounting point on the transmission tunnel.
3. This bolt can work loose causing a poor connection, even if it is tight the electrons still have to pass down the last 3ft run of cable before finally reaching the battery negative terminal.
To be honest the earth return part of the high amp starter circuit is as bad if not often worse than the positive side, add them together and throw in a little corrosion and the entire hugely long 15ft loop is subject to enormous resistance so its no wonder Chimaera & Griffiths suffer starting issues.
As part of your starter cable upgrade you really need to complete the job by running a thicker cable from that earth stud on the outrigger to the block (an alternator mounting bolt is a good choice), then run a second thick cable from there directly back to the battery negative terminal. Like this you'll not only enjoy much stronger and reliable starting but you'll likely see othe benefits relating to the other sensors ect that are earthed at the outrigger stud.
Now turn your attentions to the immobiliser, TVR incorrectly wired it so internal immobiliser relay failures are common. Replacement is the best option here and Abacus Alarms offer a plug and play kit thats designed in such a way as to make it impossible for TVR's mistake cannot be repeated. Alternatively and if money is tight the immobiliser can be bypassed in such a way as to still retain a line of defence against theft, if anyone would like to know how to complete this bypass they should PM me for my easy to follow instructions and I will share by return.
Once the immobiliser issue is fixed and both the live/earth elements of the high amp starter circuit are uprated a vehicle that has a reputation for starting issues suddenly becomes the most reliable cranking car ever. As the author of this post I did all this over seven years ago and have never since had a single cranking issue.
But don't just do the starter cable, be sure to upgrade the earth return as described too or you'll only be doing half the job and you'll not get the full benefit, finish off by addressing the immobiliser issue and you'll be doing the best things to improve the reliability of your TVR by far.
Finally forget the hot start kit, it really is an unnecessary collection of wires and a relay that only adds anothe point of potential failure, its designer sold it as a cure all for Chimaera/Griff starting issues when the truth is he failed to understand the real reasons our cars suffer the problem. If you have a hot start kit, I'd rip it out as part of the proper package of improvements as described and you'll never look back.
I agree Dave.
I should have included a better photo showing the return (negative) cable.
I have made a 50mm² -ve cable to go from the starter motor directly to the battery. (it is a tight fit through the bulk head).
Then from the alternator to the chassis bolt as you described above.
The OLD situation.
As it is now. not the best photo, but this is all I have at the moment.
For the other points you mention, I'm not that far yet.
I should have included a better photo showing the return (negative) cable.
I have made a 50mm² -ve cable to go from the starter motor directly to the battery. (it is a tight fit through the bulk head).
Then from the alternator to the chassis bolt as you described above.
The OLD situation.
As it is now. not the best photo, but this is all I have at the moment.
For the other points you mention, I'm not that far yet.
Edited by FoxTVR430 on Friday 5th April 12:43
FoxTVR430 said:
I agree Dave.
I should have included a better photo showing the return (negative) cable.
I have made a 50mm² -ve cable to go from the starter motor directly to the battery. (it is a tight fit through the bulk head).
Then from the alternator to the chassis bolt as you described above.
The OLD situation.
As it is now. not the best photo, but this is all I have at the moment.
For the other points you mention, I'm not that far yet.
You've done a proper job, battery to starter is the very best methodI should have included a better photo showing the return (negative) cable.
I have made a 50mm² -ve cable to go from the starter motor directly to the battery. (it is a tight fit through the bulk head).
Then from the alternator to the chassis bolt as you described above.
The OLD situation.
As it is now. not the best photo, but this is all I have at the moment.
For the other points you mention, I'm not that far yet.
Edited by FoxTVR430 on Friday 5th April 12:43
FoxTVR430 said:
I agree Dave.
I should have included a better photo showing the return (negative) cable.
I have made a 50mm² -ve cable to go from the starter motor directly to the battery. (it is a tight fit through the bulk head).
Then from the alternator to the chassis bolt as you described above.
The OLD situation.
As it is now. not the best photo, but this is all I have at the moment.
For the other points you mention, I'm not that far yet.
Nice work I should have included a better photo showing the return (negative) cable.
I have made a 50mm² -ve cable to go from the starter motor directly to the battery. (it is a tight fit through the bulk head).
Then from the alternator to the chassis bolt as you described above.
The OLD situation.
As it is now. not the best photo, but this is all I have at the moment.
For the other points you mention, I'm not that far yet.
Edited by FoxTVR430 on Friday 5th April 12:43
ChimpOnGas said:
Finally forget the hot start kit, it really is an unnecessary collection of wires and a relay that only adds anothe point of potential failure, its designer sold it as a cure all for Chimaera/Griff starting issues when the truth is he failed to understand the real reasons our cars suffer the problem. If you have a hot start kit, I'd rip it out as part of the proper package of improvements as described and you'll never look back.
The internet is great for finding information, but you do have to sift the wheat from the chaff. For a reason I’m unaware of, this poster seems to have an issue with the provider of the ‘hot start kit’.As usual, I like to stick to facts and personal experience. My second Griff 500, bought in 2008 and that I still own, had a ‘hot start issue’. In short, I bought the hot start kit and have never experienced a hot start issue since, in over 10 years.
The longer version is that this Griff had an after market alarm/immobiliser fitted prior to my purchase, possibly (conjecture) as a result of hot start issue, which it obviously hadn’t fixed. Providing a direct feed to the solenoid via a relay using this kit, fixed my issue. This is obviously not a unique experience, even with Karl Baker having fitted a correctly wired TVR immobiliser as in previous comments in this thread.
So while I’m sure the hot start kit doesn’t fix all hot start issues, it certainly fixes one.
The hot start kit masks rather than fixes, it just takes some load off the low amp relay potted inside the immobiliser. This is why its quite common to see Chimaeras with a hot start kit fitted that still exhibit the fault, I have seen many like this.
It fixes nothing, its a sticking plaster solution to the real issue which was that TVR wired the immobiliser incorrectly, the hot start kit may help in the short term or if you're lucky enough to fit it in time before the Meta relay becomes damaged it may work in the long term, but most fit it too late in response to the no cranking issue presenting.
The hot start kit will not and cannot fix the true underlying issue, like fixing anything properly the correct approach to resolving the hot start issue is to first understand the real reason or reasons for the fault in the first place and eliminating them at source.
It fixes nothing, its a sticking plaster solution to the real issue which was that TVR wired the immobiliser incorrectly, the hot start kit may help in the short term or if you're lucky enough to fit it in time before the Meta relay becomes damaged it may work in the long term, but most fit it too late in response to the no cranking issue presenting.
The hot start kit will not and cannot fix the true underlying issue, like fixing anything properly the correct approach to resolving the hot start issue is to first understand the real reason or reasons for the fault in the first place and eliminating them at source.
ChimpOnGas said:
The hot start kit masks rather than fixes, it just takes some load off the low amp relay potted inside the immobiliser. This is why its quite common to see Chimaeras with a hot start kit fitted that still exhibit the fault, I have seen many like this.
It fixes nothing, its a sticking plaster solution to the real issue which was that TVR wired the immobiliser incorrectly, the hot start kit may help in the short term or if you're lucky enough to fit it in time before the Meta relay becomes damaged it may work in the long term, but most fit it too late in response to the no cranking issue presenting.
The hot start kit will not and cannot fix the true underlying issue, like fixing anything properly the correct approach to resolving the hot start issue is to first understand the real reason or reasons for the fault in the first place and eliminating them at source.
As in the third paragraph of my previous post, my Griff has a Laserline immobiliser fitted, so most of the above is not directly applicable in my case.It fixes nothing, its a sticking plaster solution to the real issue which was that TVR wired the immobiliser incorrectly, the hot start kit may help in the short term or if you're lucky enough to fit it in time before the Meta relay becomes damaged it may work in the long term, but most fit it too late in response to the no cranking issue presenting.
The hot start kit will not and cannot fix the true underlying issue, like fixing anything properly the correct approach to resolving the hot start issue is to first understand the real reason or reasons for the fault in the first place and eliminating them at source.
But I would suggest that the hot start kit is a valid low cost work-around in some cases, and judging from earlier posts in this and many other threads, quite a few owners have successfully used it as such. Yes, all it does is to provide another source of power to engage the solenoid, but if that fixes the issue what is wrong with that? A few pounds as opposed to several hundreds to replace and/or rewire the immobiliser.
In fact, talking to TVR staff, TVR dealers and TVR owners over many years, the root cause of many hot start issues of V8 engined cars seems to be heat soak of the starter motor and solenoid, reducing tolerances, causing resistance to movement in the solenoid. This in turn means the solenoid tries to draw more current. Some dealers fitted a heat resistant covering around the starter to reduce the issue, including to my 390SE and 450SE, some just changed starter motors when the issue occurred, such as on my first Griff 500. Providing more current, when needed, such as via the hot start kit or rewiring (replacing if needed) the Meta immobiliser so the beefier relay is used, will both help too.
By replacing your immobiliser you inadvertantly fixed the hot start issue, even if at the time you had no hot start issue your new immobiliser made sure it would never appear.
The new immobiliser was the fix not fitting the hot start kit, so you may as well rip it out as its just a worthless additional point of potential failure.
Heat increases resistance in anything electrical, the weak point in this respect on a Chimaera or Griffith is not the starter motor or its solenoid but the string thin starter cable and the pish poor earth return.
This brings us full circle to the origins of this post.
The new immobiliser was the fix not fitting the hot start kit, so you may as well rip it out as its just a worthless additional point of potential failure.
Heat increases resistance in anything electrical, the weak point in this respect on a Chimaera or Griffith is not the starter motor or its solenoid but the string thin starter cable and the pish poor earth return.
This brings us full circle to the origins of this post.
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