Post your dyno curve here
Discussion
spitfire4v8 said:
I know that some people claim that the fine mist injectors increase power, but I don't , and i've tested this a few times with aftermarket ecus where you have full control over the ignition timing too, and the results are always the same in my experience.*
The benefits for economy, emissions, drivability are certainly there, but other than a little power hike on your car down to correcting the mixture the before and after power curves are pretty much identical
The costs of buying a set of refurbished fine mist injectors of a newer design are a bit more than refurbishing the standard injectors, but if you're going down that route you might as well go with the fine mist ones, just don't expect extra power from it.
How much increase in fuel economy ?The benefits for economy, emissions, drivability are certainly there, but other than a little power hike on your car down to correcting the mixture the before and after power curves are pretty much identical
The costs of buying a set of refurbished fine mist injectors of a newer design are a bit more than refurbishing the standard injectors, but if you're going down that route you might as well go with the fine mist ones, just don't expect extra power from it.
- this might be a peculiarity of older designs of combustion chambers .. I remember david vizard saying that on the old A Series engine the webers always gave best power, dellortos next, then worst were the SU carbs, he put this down to the webers having the largest/worst fuel droplet size, and the SUs having the finest droplet size. Just because something works in Formula1 at 18k RPM doesn't mean it translates into road engines at 5kRPM ...
SILICONEKID 345HP 12.03 said:
spitfire4v8 said:
I know that some people claim that the fine mist injectors increase power, but I don't , and i've tested this a few times with aftermarket ecus where you have full control over the ignition timing too, and the results are always the same in my experience.*
The benefits for economy, emissions, drivability are certainly there, but other than a little power hike on your car down to correcting the mixture the before and after power curves are pretty much identical
The costs of buying a set of refurbished fine mist injectors of a newer design are a bit more than refurbishing the standard injectors, but if you're going down that route you might as well go with the fine mist ones, just don't expect extra power from it.
How much increase in fuel economy ?The benefits for economy, emissions, drivability are certainly there, but other than a little power hike on your car down to correcting the mixture the before and after power curves are pretty much identical
The costs of buying a set of refurbished fine mist injectors of a newer design are a bit more than refurbishing the standard injectors, but if you're going down that route you might as well go with the fine mist ones, just don't expect extra power from it.
- this might be a peculiarity of older designs of combustion chambers .. I remember david vizard saying that on the old A Series engine the webers always gave best power, dellortos next, then worst were the SU carbs, he put this down to the webers having the largest/worst fuel droplet size, and the SUs having the finest droplet size. Just because something works in Formula1 at 18k RPM doesn't mean it translates into road engines at 5kRPM ...
Dave Byron will advise you I am sure, though the thought of the two of you together.......first to draw breath is a sissy.....
drlloyd said:
This after initial mapping/tuning work with the latest hardware modifications on our TVR Chimaera 400 development car - figures shown are directly at the hubs. So flywheel horsepower equates to about 375 bhp!
This is a naturally aspirated development project that we have been working on for some time now, more to be revealed soon...
Classic Chim said:
Looks like it revs to 7200.
Can or will you share the spec.
Is it a race engine or for road use.
There’s a big difference in life expectancy
Very impressive though.
We have now rev limited it to 7500rpm but have had it pass over 7800rpm at full throttle!Can or will you share the spec.
Is it a race engine or for road use.
There’s a big difference in life expectancy
Very impressive though.
This particular car is my daily driver and our plan is to get as many miles on it as possible the rest of this year, as part of our product testing. Intended use for overall conversion package is road or race - although this will depend on camshaft choice, amongst other things.
This car also uses a Drive By Wire throttle body with switchable throttle maps - so we can have one lower power map with reduced throttle sensitivity for wet weather road use.
Edited by drlloyd on Wednesday 30th May 21:00
We found that even with extensive modifications on the original Rover heads (large valves, welding up combustion chambers, custom camshaft, etc) we could only achieve a maximum of 251bhp at the hubs (est. 296bhp flywheel) with a naturally aspirated 4-litre.
Edited by drlloyd on Wednesday 30th May 21:12
drlloyd said:
We found that even with extensive modifications on the original Rover heads (large valves, welding up combustion chambers, custom camshaft, etc) we could only achieve a maximum of 251bhp at the hubs (est. 296bhp flywheel) with a naturally aspirated 4-litre.
You don’t surprise me. After much expenditure on my car, I finally twigged that the heads were the real restriction. Edited by drlloyd on Wednesday 30th May 21:12
The difference is I suspect the above vehicle would have been virtually undrivable on the road, in theory the Lloyds approach of achieving their big numbers using ECU managed fully sequential 3D fueling and ignition control with fly-by-wire throttle management should deliver that essential drivability too .
Its seems undeniable to me, the work we're seeing here from Lloyd Specialist Developments represents a landmark step forward in long history of Rover V8 engine development and will be recorded and respected as such. It's also refreshing to see the unpaid moderators relaxing their approach to advertising, perhaps its in response to the rise in FaceBook as there you are free to present your products and services without interference or over zealous policing.
When you embark on the development of anything new a period of failures should always be accepted as part of that process, but there comes a point where eventually you must move past this stage to achieve the essential element that is reliability. Thomas Edison tried literally hundreds of materials and conditions all of which failed before he finally came up with the vacuum encapsulated carbon filament, importantly it was only after he'd achieved this truly reliable solution that Edison considered his revolutionary product fit for sale to paying customers.
The point is.... through perseverance and an unshakable belief in his electric light bulb concept Thomas Edison did finally achieve his dream of clean, efficient and reliable man made light, none of this could have ever been considered a success without that critical element of reliability.
Sometimes I feel a real affinity with Mr Edison, when we experience frustrations in achieving our goals he is an example to us all that perseverance always pays off in the end. I wish Lloyd Specialist Developments every success with their ground breaking development of this iconic engine, that lets not forget was actually designed way back in the very late 1950's!
If the power produced can be matched with drivability and even more importantly sustained and proven reliability, their development work and proposed engine package will be a massively impressive achievement for sure.
Its seems undeniable to me, the work we're seeing here from Lloyd Specialist Developments represents a landmark step forward in long history of Rover V8 engine development and will be recorded and respected as such. It's also refreshing to see the unpaid moderators relaxing their approach to advertising, perhaps its in response to the rise in FaceBook as there you are free to present your products and services without interference or over zealous policing.
Classic Chim said:
There’s a big difference in life expectancy
As with any modification which very much includes my own Canems Dual Fuel LPG conversion, reliability is always going to be the real acid test, clearly you can make an engine produce all the power in the world, or even as in my case deliver astonishing fuel economy and excellent drivability..... but if that's not supported by a sustained and proven period of reliability it all very quickly becomes completely meaningless When you embark on the development of anything new a period of failures should always be accepted as part of that process, but there comes a point where eventually you must move past this stage to achieve the essential element that is reliability. Thomas Edison tried literally hundreds of materials and conditions all of which failed before he finally came up with the vacuum encapsulated carbon filament, importantly it was only after he'd achieved this truly reliable solution that Edison considered his revolutionary product fit for sale to paying customers.
The point is.... through perseverance and an unshakable belief in his electric light bulb concept Thomas Edison did finally achieve his dream of clean, efficient and reliable man made light, none of this could have ever been considered a success without that critical element of reliability.
Sometimes I feel a real affinity with Mr Edison, when we experience frustrations in achieving our goals he is an example to us all that perseverance always pays off in the end. I wish Lloyd Specialist Developments every success with their ground breaking development of this iconic engine, that lets not forget was actually designed way back in the very late 1950's!
If the power produced can be matched with drivability and even more importantly sustained and proven reliability, their development work and proposed engine package will be a massively impressive achievement for sure.
drlloyd said:
drlloyd said:
This after initial mapping/tuning work with the latest hardware modifications on our TVR Chimaera 400 development car - figures shown are directly at the hubs. So flywheel horsepower equates to about 375 bhp!
This is a naturally aspirated development project that we have been working on for some time now, more to be revealed soon...
The torque curve is extremely unusual, would be interesting to drive - very different from the standard Rover V8.
A question, if you can reveal the details - I understood the valve train to be a limiting factor, being a pushrod engine. How have you uprated the components to withstand these revs?
Many thanks,
Dom
Thank you. The idea in this case was to try and make the engine's characteristics more closely suit the car, but still using the Rover V8 that we know and love. Although note that this 4.1-litre has 270 lb-ft directly at the hubs, so still a fair amount of torque. Looking forward to carrying out the same conversion on a larger capacity Rover V8!
The valve-train is based on aftermarket small-block Chevy, so billet aluminium roller rockers, etc.
The valve-train is based on aftermarket small-block Chevy, so billet aluminium roller rockers, etc.
Edited by drlloyd on Friday 1st June 07:08
Hi yes it's flywheel numbers from dyno dynamics standard shootout modelling ( i find that I reckon the dyno dynamics wheels figures are very pessimistic but that their flywheel hp conversion seems to put that number back in the right ball park)
I can't take credit for any of the engine except the mapping at the very end, would have loved it to have been my engine. A screaming 4litre is exactly the sort of thing I prefer rather than large capacity sloggers. Though as you can see we hardly screamed the bits off it but would have been nice with some esoteric bottom end parts so it could have made the most of the end of the power band.
I suspect the heads might have come from Head Racing Developments in Ely, though not 100 percent sure, just reading between the lines on what the owner told me once.
No idea on cam spec though.
Standard alloy singe plenum with a larger throttle body welded on although a rebored plenum to 72mm would have been more than enough at this power level.
Decatted std manifolds and ACT Y piece too if memory serves me correctly.
So nothing out of the ordinary really, just a nice set of high flow heads which is the key of course and a big cam.
good luck with your larger capacity version of your engine
I can't take credit for any of the engine except the mapping at the very end, would have loved it to have been my engine. A screaming 4litre is exactly the sort of thing I prefer rather than large capacity sloggers. Though as you can see we hardly screamed the bits off it but would have been nice with some esoteric bottom end parts so it could have made the most of the end of the power band.
I suspect the heads might have come from Head Racing Developments in Ely, though not 100 percent sure, just reading between the lines on what the owner told me once.
No idea on cam spec though.
Standard alloy singe plenum with a larger throttle body welded on although a rebored plenum to 72mm would have been more than enough at this power level.
Decatted std manifolds and ACT Y piece too if memory serves me correctly.
So nothing out of the ordinary really, just a nice set of high flow heads which is the key of course and a big cam.
good luck with your larger capacity version of your engine
Edited by spitfire4v8 on Friday 1st June 08:39
It's true for me .. one of the best and worst things I did on my V8S was fit the 5 litre .. the good thing about the 4 litre was you had to really stir the cogs to make good progress and that was fun. An engine that would just go in any gear at any revs wasn't interesting enough, though it was fast! A 300 plus hp 4 litre smooth as silk and revvy as anything would be a great fun engine Sorry Peter.
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