Post your dyno curve here

[drlloyd]

CanoeSniffer said:

drlloyd said:

A few engine bay shots of our TVR Chimaera 400 - naturally aspirated 4.1-litre Rover V8 with 373 bhp and 315 lb-ft at the flywheel!

Awesome numbers!!! Have you any idea Daniel, what's the N/A peak you would expect to see from an early pre-serp non-crossbolted 400 with the 3.9 engine? I'm giving consideration to going turbo but if halfway impressive performance can be found without needing that funny whirly thing I'm all ears!

It depends on what you regard as your safe maximum engine speed. We got 299bhp at the hubs at 6000rpm, which equates to approx. 344bhp at the flywheel. So roughly 330bhp at the flywheel would be a realistic expectation with your 3.9 pre-serp engine - with peak power at your redline!

Edited by drlloyd on Tuesday 5th June 18:32

[SILICONEKID 345HP 12.03]

So it's not a bolt off bolt on job ,it sounds more like it needs solid lifters,maybe roller rockers,custom inlet manifold , custom plenum and maybe a different exhaust manifolds .

[ChimpOnGas]

SILICONEKID 345HP 12.03 said:

So it's not a bolt off bolt on job ,it sounds more like it needs solid lifters,maybe roller rockers,custom inlet manifold , custom plenum and maybe a different exhaust manifolds .

One might reasonably assume its not going to be a very smart idea to put all that extra suck, squeeze, bang and blow on top of a well used bottom end? I think the wise and safe way to look at this is therefore as a series of components to accompany a full engine rebuild, not something that should be seen as a bolt on power adder kit.

Saying that, I wouldn't put a blower kit on a half used bottom end either

And as no one really knows the costs yet we can only guess at the £££££s

Lets assume you buy the Wildcat heads, roller rockers, intake manifold and exhaust manifolds ... and then had it all fitted to your existing engine.... TBH I'd be very surprised if that little lot alone didn't come to something in the order of £10k including parts and labour? You might then sensibly decide its the smart thing to do to have it all fitted to a properly rebuilt and fresh bottom end/short engine and pay to have the end result installed in your Chimaera, its not unreasonable to think this could easily add a further £5k.

Obviously here I'm not including the fully sequential Canems engine management system with drive by wire throttle set up, which might easily add £4k by the time it's been installed, mapped... and is delivering consistent reliability.

Clearly £10k + £5k + £4k = £19k

So yes...... it's a bit cheaper than having someone like Top Cats put a brand new factory LS crate motor with Chevrolet's hot rodder friendly loom & ECU in your TVR, and maybe my guesses on the costs are way out?

Only time will tell, but we need to be realistic here.... and to be fair we absolutely must compare apples with apples.

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Tuesday 5th June 20:55

[drlloyd]

SILICONEKID 345HP 12.03 said:

So it's not a bolt off bolt on job ,it sounds more like it needs solid lifters,maybe roller rockers,custom inlet manifold , custom plenum and maybe a different exhaust manifolds .

No it's a complete conversion - so includes roller rockers, intake manifold, exhaust manifolds, etc. You may be able to use your existing camshaft but clearances will need to be checked. Worth noting that the characteristics of your camshaft will be different with these Wildcat heads due to significantly larger valve diameters. You can also retain use of the hydraulic followers but this will naturally limit how high you can rev the engine, as it would with any other Rover V8 engine.

[drlloyd]

ChimpOnGas said:

One might reasonably assume its not going to be a very smart idea to put all that extra suck, squeeze, bang and blow on top of a well used bottom end? I think the wise and safe way to look at this is therefore as a series of components to accompany a full engine rebuild, not something that should be seen as a bolt on power adder kit.

Saying that, I wouldn't put a blower kit on a half used bottom end either

Obviously here I'm not including the fully sequential Canems engine management system with drive by wire throttle set up, which might easily add £4k by the time it's been installed, mapped...

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Tuesday 5th June 20:55

For clarity, this conversion will work with any standalone programmable engine management system - Canems, Emerald, MBE, etc. The fully sequential or DBW features are not required either.

A new short engine is not an absolute requirement either. Same deal as with a supercharger or turbocharger conversion - not ideal on an old tired engine but plenty of us have successfully carried out those conversions without replacing the entire engine! ;-)

[N7GTX]

I'm really liking this thread and I really like the engine bay photo from LLoyds. It llooks like Daz will be your first customer........

Price is of course a big player in all this. But you have to ask why it is that people want to go down this route when the blower (turbo or supercharger) will achieve much more? Its all well and good when some say that keeping the engine N/A is important. Why? Once you replace any part with a modified one the originality is lost so what is the difference when someone fits a blower?
And for once I'm in agreement with COG when he does not recommend fitting a blower on a well used engine. I'm also surprised to hear LLoyds take on this. I wanted a blower on a car I bought with 49,000 miles (or so the speedo said but knowing these speedos now, you can never be sure) and thought it would be a simple bolt on job. Thankfully the engine was stripped before the conversion to ensure it was going to take the boost, extra load, wear etc etc. First thing they found was the cam bearings knackered so they did a full on strip down. The shells were black and well worn but fortunately the crank was good as were the bores. So a full rebuild, blower, stainless manifolds, alloy rad, MBE and so on inc mapping. The total bill is just over £13,000.
Others have probably spent as much (if they are honest with themselves) on N/A mods in the chase to get more than 350 bhp. If COG's guesstimate is anywhere near the mark, the figures in my opinion just don't add up. According to the dyno print out I have 355 bhp and 481 ft/lbs. As is the way with Pistonheads, the knockers say that Powers use a 'generous' rolling road. Whatever, the fact is you can have an as new engine producing big figures with reliability thrown in. And when I collected the car, Dom said two things.
One, this car is a monster and two, if you want 400 bring it back and we'll fit some bigger injectors. This is an otherwise fairly standard 4 litre.

So, I just don't get it. If you are modifying you are doing it to achieve more power. So why spend thousands on specialised heads, throttle bodies and other perceived goodies when the blower route costs about the same, or even less in some cases, and is a far more simple and therefore, reliable route?

BTW, I'm not knocking LLoyds here, I did in fact enquire with them the cost of fitting an LS in my SD1......

[drlloyd]

Agreed, you will always got more 'bang for buck' with forced induction. The chosen route to more performance also depends on your preferred engine characteristics too however.
Also agree that it is not ideal to carry out major tuning work to an old, well worn engine - that stands to reason.

[ChimpOnGas]

N7GTX said:

Price is of course a big player in all this. But you have to ask why it is that people want to go down this route when the blower (turbo or supercharger) will achieve much more? Its all well and good when some say that keeping the engine N/A is important. Why?

I think what you'll find what Lloyds have created here is what I would refer to as a.... 'Thoroughbred Engine'.

The three engines I've been fortunate enough to experience that I would describe as a 'Thoroughbred Engine' are:

1. The 60° V12 designed by Gioacchino Colombo - In a Ferrari 250 GT Lusso

2. The pre-war designed BMW hemispherical combustion chamber push rod engine used by Bristol & AC post war - In an AC Ace

3. The 3.0 litre Porsche air-cooled flat six - Shoehorned into a 1968 Porsche 912

There are many other's I'm sure, but these three are engines I have direct experience of that literally burnt their way into my memory by virtue of their brilliance. Even in TVR spec you could hardly describe the Rover V8 as a thoroughbred engine, indeed while we all love old Rover for many reasons it is a long long way off even coming close to being a thoroughbred engine.

So what exactly makes a thoroughbred engine .... Well for me it's all about 'Feel', I appreciate 'Feel' is a difficult concept to translate on the written page but there are three common characteristics that always appear in what I would describe as a thoroughbred engine :

1. Throttle response - this is the holy grail qualifier for the status of 'Thoroughbred Engine'

2. The way torque & HP is delivered - This is felt, but to some extent can also be demonstrated when the torque curve is laid over the horsepower on graph

3. The ability for the engine to continue making power as engine speed increases beyond 6,000rpm - That slice between 6k to 7k

This is not to belittle the insane torque and excellent outright horsepower figures people are achieving with boost, but there's a world of difference in the way a boosted engine produces power and a normally aspirated engine does, and this directly translates to the concept of 'Feel' which in turn for me is always is the overarching qualifier for the status of 'Thoroughbred Engine'.

While it's been proven time and time again you can put a blower kit on a 4.0 litre Rover V8 and make 365hp all day long, lets be honest here there's a world of difference between making 365hp using forced induction and making 365hp from a naturally aspirated 4.0 litre Rover V8 engine that screams in a delicious and linear way to 7,000rpm and beyond.

Both make 365hp but lets not kid ourselves here, driven back to back the FI and NA engines will feel totally different.

For the record big horsepower numbers do not maketh a thoroughbred engine, for example the pre-war designed BMW hemispherical combustion chamber push rod engine used in the AC Ace belonging to a friends father only makes 132hp on the rolling road, but drive that car as I have from time to time and it's absolutely impossible to remove the grin from your face. Yes the car is super light at roughly 760kg so you're looking at somewhere in the order of 170 bhp/per ton, but that's only part of the story.

The reason the engine in that old AC is quite clearly a thoroughbred is the truly delicious way it makes power and the almost telepathic connection your right foot has with that power delivery, every millimeter of travel in the throttle pedal translates to almost instantaneous changes in engine speed, forward motion and exhaust note to the extent there's that much super satisfying controlability the joyous thrilling sensation literally travels right through your body and directly to your brain delivering pleasure in a magnitude that is completely disproportionate to the modest 132hp the engine produces.

The above is my best attempt to describe 'Feel' on the written page, and its this concept of 'Feel' that makes an engine a true 'Thoroughbred'. Another way to help people understand the concept is to compare a £5 bottle of Blossom Hill from Tescos with a £35 bottle of Pierro Chardonnay from Waitrose, both have an alcohol content of 12.5% and both will make you drunk if you consume them, but drinking the Pierro Chardonnay is a completely different experience.

I would put money on the 4.1 litre masterpiece Lloyd Specialist Developments have created here instantly elevates the venerable old Rover V8 from a lovable but lets face it unrefined lump..... to the status of 'Thoroughbred Engine'.

So yes you can always boost to achieve the same outright numbers, but will the result give you the same thoroughbred engine 'Feel' that I strongly suspect is what you'll be getting if you invest in the beautifully presented and game changing Lloyd Specialist Developments Rover V8?


NB: Edited to add TVR's own Speed Six which I've also experienced, if built correctly this is also most definitely another 'Thoroughbred Engine'

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Wednesday 6th June 07:44

[phazed]

I'm not saying anyfink!

[N7GTX]

phazed said:

I'm not saying anyfink!

Ha ha, not like you old bean. But you are the exception to the rule. There's always one......

[SILICONEKID 345HP 12.03]

Doctor exhaust ports match up with What we have or are they in a different position ?

[trev4]

SILICONEKID 345HP 12.03 said:

Doctor exhaust ports match up with What we have or are they in a different position ?

I have been following this thread with interest and also initially got quite excited about the prospects of more power but when you look at the numbers is it really worth the cost.

A few sums.

Your 5lt is 69hp per Lt = 345
Phased 5.5lt is 72.7hp per Lt = 400
My 4lt is 71hb per Lt = 284

I think we have all taken our cars about as far as you can and still be drivable.
Just my personal opinion and I hope to be proved wrong.

[ITVRI]

We all have our own personal philosophy when it comes to cars wine or whisky. Each to their own I say.
I personally am into how a car performs but without breaking the bank to do so.

trev4 said:

A few sums.

Your 5lt is 69hp per Lt = 345
Phased 5.5lt is 72.7hp per Lt = 400
My 4lt is 71hb per Lt = 284

My turbo 4lt is 82.5 hp per Lt =331 @5psi which is poor by modern standards when comparing it against something like a Ford Focus RS which makes almost double this per litre.

My engine is currently running the 14CUX with distributor, has 123000 original miles, and so far the engine has held together over the past 8 months.
If it does go pop I plan to rebuild the standard engine and maybe an aftermarket computer at some stage
Budget for the turbo kit and ported manifold and heads was £3000+ a Joolz rolling road remap session.
It's was orginally making 210hp when I brought it in 2009.

It wasn't all smooth sailing. I'm not saying this is the way to go and reading the comments above I get what people say about feel and putting a turbo on an old engine, it's not every ones cup of tea, but I just wanted to put a little balance into the discussion.

[ChimpOnGas]

ITVRI said:

We all have our own personal philosophy when it comes to cars wine or whisky. Each to their own I say.
I personally am into how a car performs but without breaking the bank to do so.

trev4 said:

A few sums.

Your 5lt is 69hp per Lt = 345
Phased 5.5lt is 72.7hp per Lt = 400
My 4lt is 71hb per Lt = 284

My turbo 4lt is 82.5 hp per Lt =331 @5psi which is poor by modern standards when comparing it against something like a Ford Focus RS which makes almost double this per litre.

My engine is currently running the 14CUX with distributor, has 123000 original miles, and so far the engine has held together over the past 8 months.
If it does go pop I plan to rebuild the standard engine and maybe an aftermarket computer at some stage
Budget for the turbo kit and ported manifold and heads was £3000+ a Joolz rolling road remap session.
It's was orginally making 210hp when I brought it in 2009.

It wasn't all smooth sailing. I'm not saying this is the way to go and reading the comments above I get what people say about feel and putting a turbo on an old engine, it's not every ones cup of tea, but I just wanted to put a little balance into the discussion.

An excellent pragmatic post with none of the normal 'mine's faster than yours' posturing we see on PH, these are all fair points intelligently made with a refreshing splash of honesty

[SILICONEKID 345HP 12.03]

I asked the question on what fits and What doesn't ,but I did not get an answer.

The package you are offering looks fantastic but what if I didn't want another 100hp and wanted to buy the minimum to say get 50hp, is this an option ?

If my manifolds fitted up to the new heads and inlet manifold ,plenum and trumpet base there must be at least 50 up to be had .

I would appreciate a reply to give us so some TRANSPARENCY !

[drlloyd]

SILICONEKID 345HP 12.03 said:

I asked the question on what fits and What doesn't ,but I did not get an answer.

The package you are offering looks fantastic but what if I didn't want another 100hp and wanted to buy the minimum to say get 50hp, is this an option ?

If my manifolds fitted up to the new heads and inlet manifold ,plenum and trumpet base there must be at least 50 up to be had .

I would appreciate a reply to give us so some TRANSPARENCY !

Sorry, not on here regularly. If you want more prompt responses it is best to email through my work email.
Unfortunately the Wildcat heads are not compatible with existing intake and exhaust manifolds, which is why we are developing this package. If you are able to make your own intake and exhaust manifolds then the fully assembled heads with rocker gear and rocker covers are available for £2949 plus VAT.
If you want less power you can simply use a milder camshaft. With a 5-litre you should still get about 400bhp with a fairly mild camshaft.

Edited by drlloyd on Friday 8th June 19:40

[drlloyd]

trev4 said:

SILICONEKID 345HP 12.03 said:

Doctor exhaust ports match up with What we have or are they in a different position ?

I have been following this thread with interest and also initially got quite excited about the prospects of more power but when you look at the numbers is it really worth the cost.

A few sums.

Your 5lt is 69hp per Lt = 345
Phased 5.5lt is 72.7hp per Lt = 400
My 4lt is 71hb per Lt = 284

I think we have all taken our cars about as far as you can and still be drivable.
Just my personal opinion and I hope to be proved wrong.

So far we have got 91bhp per litre but confident that we can get more with a custom camshaft with a more suitable LCA for this particular engine spec. I will be using the car as a daily driver so will be able to comment more on driveability soon :-)

[drlloyd]

ITVRI said:

We all have our own personal philosophy when it comes to cars wine or whisky. Each to their own I say.
I personally am into how a car performs but without breaking the bank to do so.

trev4 said:

A few sums.

Your 5lt is 69hp per Lt = 345
Phased 5.5lt is 72.7hp per Lt = 400
My 4lt is 71hb per Lt = 284

My turbo 4lt is 82.5 hp per Lt =331 @5psi which is poor by modern standards when comparing it against something like a Ford Focus RS which makes almost double this per litre.

My engine is currently running the 14CUX with distributor, has 123000 original miles, and so far the engine has held together over the past 8 months.
If it does go pop I plan to rebuild the standard engine and maybe an aftermarket computer at some stage
Budget for the turbo kit and ported manifold and heads was £3000+ a Joolz rolling road remap session.
It's was orginally making 210hp when I brought it in 2009.

It wasn't all smooth sailing. I'm not saying this is the way to go and reading the comments above I get what people say about feel and putting a turbo on an old engine, it's not every ones cup of tea, but I just wanted to put a little balance into the discussion.

Fair play on running a turbocharger with the original 14CUX system. You will definitely make good gains with an aftermarket ECU with fully programmable ignition. This is also testament to the durability of the Rover V8.

[Kokkolanpoika]

I will use std Eales manifold. Need slight modification.. Centre bolt holes need re drilling and manifold ends need replacement.

New ends.


Fitted with std ends.

New ends in place


Fully weldet.


Need some milling after welding. Not bad. 0.8mm out of tolerance. Like banana.. Weldings are slightly above mounting face.. Know it is machined.


Inlet port location over 20mm above as std rover casting.


Need some porting only.. hope it will run 2019 season.. 418hp with std heads is not enought for 5.2l..

[drlloyd]

Kokkolanpoika said:

I will use std Eales manifold. Need slight modification..

Need some porting only.. hope it will run 2019 season.. 418hp with std heads is not enought for 5.2l..

Seen some of your cylinder head work on other posts, very impressive that you managed to get as much as 418bhp from Rover castings! We tried all sorts to get extra flow, including raising/filling intake ports, welding/machining combustion chambers, etc and could still not get significant enough gains in head flow.
I am sure that you will get significant gains with Wildcat heads. If used for competition, rather than road use, you should be able to easily tune that engine for over 500bhp. Carl Hansen used Wildcat heads to allegedly get 535bhp with 4.8 litres.