Intermittent Starting Problem

Intermittent Starting Problem

Author
Discussion

Aussie John

882 posts

175 months

Tuesday 27th May 2014
quotequote all
Hi Sparky, I put one in purely because of the high failure rate reported for the ignition switch although I don't know if it was over-current or mechanical failures in the switches.

EGB

1,774 posts

101 months

Tuesday 27th May 2014
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[/quote]

The spectacular shorting burn out on the positive battery lead has been reported by other owners. Poor earthing of leads on chassis etc could be responsible.
After 10 years all earthing points should be emery paper cleaned to bright perfection. As said, my hot start cured with new 2kw starter motor. The fitted hot start kit did not, but solved the immobiliser issues, along with an immobiliser bypass. Original TVR starter cables still fitted. Could do with 50mm cable and earth to engine block.



Edited by EGB on Tuesday 27th May 15:06

ChimpOnGas

8,847 posts

123 months

Tuesday 27th May 2014
quotequote all
Sardonicus said:
Not sure you know how that Meta alarm relay is incorporated into the starter circuit Dave scratchchin the TVR/Vaux ign switch when cranked in no way energizes the Meta relay it just uses the already closed relay contacts nerd the alarm unit does this when you dis-arm the alarm, this so called relay must be well underrated for the job because strictly speaking once those contacts are closed it should easily be able to pass enough current to energize the starter solenoid frown I have used 15A fuses on 4 hot start conversions and to date none of them have blown so that Meta relay must be pretty poor especially seeing as when its needed the contacts are already shut rolleyes

Edited by Sardonicus on Tuesday 27th May 10:10
I think I've got a reasonable understanding of the system Simon rolleyes

All you're doing when you press the alarm fob is closing the contacts inside the immobiliser so the starter solenoid circuit is made, your alarm fob is in effect just an IR remote switch uniquely coded to your Meta alarm unit.

You could do the switching with a conventional hard wired switch hidden under the dash if you wanted, and I know those that have done just that.

As I've done my best to explain to the OP, it's the switching relay buried inside the Meta unit that's problematic because all the amps are passing through it directly to the starter solenoid.

But to be fair to Meta it was never designed for this.

All the little Meta switching relay was designed to do is provide a low amp feed to the switching side of a dedicate starter relay, the problem was not a failing of the Meta unit but a mistake by TVR in the way they wired the car.

With a relay in place the higher amp starter solenoid feed wouldn't have gone anywhere near the poor old Meta unit and the little switching relay inside it would have probably lasted indefinitely, as indeed it does on the fuel pump circuit.

I have no idea why TVR didn't fit a dedicated relay to the starter solenoid circuit as they did with the fuel pump, my guess is its a combination of ignorance and the fact TVR used only part of the Range Rover loom.

The part of the Range Rover loom they used relates closely to the function of the 14CUX ECU, from it hangs two metal bodied relays right next to each other, one controlling the ECU & one controlling the fuel pump.

If the ECU & fuel pump relays didn't hang together like that on the original Range Rover loom my bet is TVR probably wouldn't have fitted a relay to the fuel pump either.

It should come as no surprise to any of us there were many school boy errors made by TVR when wiring these cars, ultimately it was in a splice job done badly.

Fortunately most of it isn't that difficult to put right, as long as you dont give it to Dorris in Blackpool who made all the mess in the first place, at best Dorris was rather confused by it all herself supported by the fact she seemed to change the loom every 6 months in a futile bid to correct her own mistakes.

What TVR should have done was send Dorris on a basic automotive wiring course hehe


Edited by ChimpOnGas on Tuesday 27th May 13:05

ChimpOnGas

8,847 posts

123 months

Tuesday 27th May 2014
quotequote all
You're probably right Simon, Meta are Italian after all.

And anyone who's worked on an Italian car of a certain age will know all about the spaghetti wiring gags, I'm not sure if they're better these days but if my mates Maserati Grandtourismo is anything to go by.... I'd say definitely not!

TBh the sort of cars I used to work on didn't have any relays full stop let alone one on the the stater circuit, in fact most didn't even have fuses laugh

But to protect & extend the contact life of the ignition switch adding relay to the starter circuit is certainly a very good idea indeed, the OP (& the rest of us) should just follow Aussie John's simple but best practice setup.

Sardonicus

16,260 posts

165 months

Tuesday 27th May 2014
quotequote all
ChimpOnGas said:
You're probably right Simon, Meta are Italian after all.

And anyone who's worked on an Italian car of a certain age will know all about the spaghetti wiring gags, I'm not sure if they're better these days but if my mates Maserati Grandtourismo is anything to go by.... I'd say definitely not!

TBh the sort of cars I used to work on didn't have any relays full stop let alone one on the the stater circuit, in fact most didn't even have fuses laugh

But to protect & extend the contact life of the ignition switch adding relay to the starter circuit is certainly a very good idea indeed, the OP (& the rest of us) should just follow Aussie John's simple but best practice setup.
Agreed never experienced the hot start problem on my car but fitted a 30A relay purely because my alarm does cut the starter trigger circuit and I needed to take away that load wink now the alarm relay just passes the current to energize my fitted hot start/trigger relay wink did I mention I don't do unreliable/temperamental guys? actually I don't laugh

SILICONEKID346HP

14,673 posts

175 months

Tuesday 27th May 2014
quotequote all
Sardonicus said:
greed never experienced the hot start problem on my car but fitted a 30A relay purely because my alarm does cut the starter trigger circuit and I needed to take away that load wink now the alarm relay just passes the current to energize my fitted hot start/trigger relay wink did I mention I don't do unreliable/temperamental guys? actually I don't laugh
Where is your garage Simon ?I`m coming down to see you ..

Job 1 Bypass the digital speed signal

Job 2 Bypass the starter wire from the immobiliser or fix it some other way to stop the hot start problem

Job Sort out my speedo problem !! which might be the digital speed converter for the old ECU .

ButtonIt

385 posts

122 months

Tuesday 27th May 2014
quotequote all
Sardonicus said:
did I mention I don't do unreliable/temperamental guys?
Good for you, you're worth so much more than those guys realise!!

Sorry, it just stood out biggrin

Sardonicus

16,260 posts

165 months

Tuesday 27th May 2014
quotequote all
ButtonIt said:
Good for you, you're worth so much more than those guys realise!!

Sorry, it just stood out biggrin
I'm a paper hat that meant to read CARS rolleyes thanks for pointing that out biggrinbiggrin

ChimpOnGas

8,847 posts

123 months

Tuesday 27th May 2014
quotequote all
OP... YHM thumbup

sparkythecat

Original Poster:

6,913 posts

199 months

Monday 14th July 2014
quotequote all
Just an update to finish the thread.
Following the instructions mailed to me by ChimponGas, I disconnected the originaL feed to the starter motor solenoid and installed a new starter motor circuit, completely bypassing the immobiliser.

Six weeks and 2000miles later still no repeat of the starting problem.

Excellent ! thumbup

ChimpOnGas

8,847 posts

123 months

Tuesday 15th July 2014
quotequote all
sparkythecat said:
Just an update to finish the thread.
Following the instructions mailed to me by ChimponGas, I disconnected the originaL feed to the starter motor solenoid and installed a new starter motor circuit, completely bypassing the immobiliser.

Six weeks and 2000miles later still no repeat of the starting problem.

Excellent ! thumbup
Just seen this, great news clap

MADMAX2

2,332 posts

138 months

Tuesday 15th July 2014
quotequote all
ChimpOnGas said:
sparkythecat said:
Just an update to finish the thread.
Following the instructions mailed to me by ChimponGas, I disconnected the originaL feed to the starter motor solenoid and installed a new starter motor circuit, completely bypassing the immobiliser.

Six weeks and 2000miles later still no repeat of the starting problem.

Excellent ! thumbup
Just seen this, great news clap
Can you mail me the instructions to do this Chimpongas please!!!

Cheers. wink

ChimpOnGas

8,847 posts

123 months

Tuesday 15th July 2014
quotequote all
MADMAX2 said:
Can you mail me the instructions to do this Chimpongas please!!!

Cheers. wink
You'll need to PM me. wink

MADMAX2

2,332 posts

138 months

Tuesday 15th July 2014
quotequote all
Chimpongas YHM

ChimpOnGas

8,847 posts

123 months

Tuesday 15th July 2014
quotequote all
MADMAX2 said:
Chimpongas YHM
Responded, let us all know how you get on by posting your results here.

Feedback is an important element to how the forum should work yes

Remember, people experiencing the same problem will find this post in the future, as such it needs closure to serve as a guide to others.

I like to follow & recommend the principles of Karma wink

Supercharged5

25 posts

21 months

Monday 14th May 2018
quotequote all
I found some very useful information in this old thread, I wish I saw it before I bought the cold start kit....
I am saying this because despite the kit being installed my starting problem is still there just a different way.
Instead of having no reaction from the starter when I turn the ignition key 19 times out of 20 now the car start fine 50% of the cases but blows the 20A fuse of the cold start circuit in the other 50%.

I am thinking of either replacing the starter/solenoid or doing Aussie John’s direct wire trick.

John, can you give more detailed info on your solution? Or anyone who did it could you enlighten me how to do it, where to pass the wire, what kind of relay to buy etc?

Thanks!!

Penelope Stopit

4,690 posts

53 months

Monday 14th May 2018
quotequote all
Supercharged5 said:
I found some very useful information in this old thread, I wish I saw it before I bought the cold start kit....
I am saying this because despite the kit being installed my starting problem is still there just a different way.
Instead of having no reaction from the starter when I turn the ignition key 19 times out of 20 now the car start fine 50% of the cases but blows the 20A fuse of the cold start circuit in the other 50%.

I am thinking of either replacing the starter/solenoid or doing Aussie John’s direct wire trick.

John, can you give more detailed info on your solution? Or anyone who did it could you enlighten me how to do it, where to pass the wire, what kind of relay to buy etc?

Thanks!!
There is only one difference to be concerned about between what you have and what Aussie John did, Aussie John fitted a 30 Amp fuse with heavy enough wire to carry that current, you are using a 20 Amp fuse

The problem you are having is often caused by the solenoid plunger not travelling freely due to old dried out grease, the solenoid has a pull-in circuit and a hold-in circuit of which the pull-in circuit takes far more current than the hold-in circuit, if the solenoid plunger sticks there is a higher current draw through your 20 amp fuse for a longer length of time and the fuse will overheat and blow

The problem is that you are unable to prove that the plunger is sticking or the solenoid windings are on the way out, you will need to remove the solenoid, re-grease and refit it for future testing