TVR Parts Drop Links
Discussion
Not sure if people can view this video link on FB but here goes...
https://www.facebook.com/dave.byron.313/videos/120...
The point is the boots trap water which causes the joints to corrode, this accelerates wear rapidly so having boots actually reduces the joint life rather than extending it as you might think. I probably should have filled them with grease which I did consider at the time but never did for some reason.
And here's another shot of the knackered drop link that shows from the centre of the pivot point to the lower washer that supports the lower bush is 70mm.
When trying to find an alternative rear drop link I would have thought this 70mm is the more important measurement rather than just saying the whole thing is 140mm long in total?
The important measurement is surely the distance between the mounting plate on the wishbone to the centre of the hole in the anti roll bar, basically my measured 70mm plus the thickness of the lower rubber bush, this gives us the critical working length of the alternative drop link we're looking for.
I don't have this measurement for either the Mk3 or Mk4 Mondeo links but my guess is both will be different to what's required on a Chimaera, it does seem however people are having success using the Honda Accord 1998-03 front links so maybe the answer is to use these and buy the rears from one of the TVR parts specialists?
It's still a good saving until someone can find some alternative rears that definitely fit perfectly on a Chimaera, the first of us to find the answer wins the respect of the Piston Heads TVR massive
https://www.facebook.com/dave.byron.313/videos/120...
The point is the boots trap water which causes the joints to corrode, this accelerates wear rapidly so having boots actually reduces the joint life rather than extending it as you might think. I probably should have filled them with grease which I did consider at the time but never did for some reason.
And here's another shot of the knackered drop link that shows from the centre of the pivot point to the lower washer that supports the lower bush is 70mm.
When trying to find an alternative rear drop link I would have thought this 70mm is the more important measurement rather than just saying the whole thing is 140mm long in total?
The important measurement is surely the distance between the mounting plate on the wishbone to the centre of the hole in the anti roll bar, basically my measured 70mm plus the thickness of the lower rubber bush, this gives us the critical working length of the alternative drop link we're looking for.
I don't have this measurement for either the Mk3 or Mk4 Mondeo links but my guess is both will be different to what's required on a Chimaera, it does seem however people are having success using the Honda Accord 1998-03 front links so maybe the answer is to use these and buy the rears from one of the TVR parts specialists?
It's still a good saving until someone can find some alternative rears that definitely fit perfectly on a Chimaera, the first of us to find the answer wins the respect of the Piston Heads TVR massive
Somewhere I have a copy of Fred Puhn's excellent book, "How to make your car handle". According to Fred, one of the best and most cost effective handling improvements you can make is to use a stiffer anti roll bar. There's even instruction on how to forge your own custom ARB if you fancy getting in touch with your inner blacksmith !
Curiously, thicker ARBs dont seem to feature much in any discussion about TVR handling. Does anyone know why that is? The only aftermarket bar that Google turns up is 25mm, but that's already fitted as standard to some cars, my own included. Just wondering if anyone on here has experimented with different ARBs and what their conclusions were?
Curiously, thicker ARBs dont seem to feature much in any discussion about TVR handling. Does anyone know why that is? The only aftermarket bar that Google turns up is 25mm, but that's already fitted as standard to some cars, my own included. Just wondering if anyone on here has experimented with different ARBs and what their conclusions were?
ARBs are kind of a band aid. The wheels on an axle deliver the most grip when they move as freely as possible in a vertical plane. Putting an ARB between the wheels on an axle transfers loads from the already lighter loaded inner wheel to the outer (you can see this in extremis whenever the inner wheel is lifted from the ground on track) and thus limit the amount of grip that the front or rear wheels deliver.
You will have to balance this against the effects of body lean on grip, and the more positive turn-in a laterally stiff front end typically delivers as there's a lesser ount of body roll that needs to settle down into a steady cornering state.
Often, ARBs are used to tweak the fore-aft balance. On my old Saab, I had no ARB in the front (it needed all the traction it could get) but one in the rear. By making the rear end grip less this shifted the balance from 'slight to heavy understeer' to 'understeer on the throttle, oversteer off the throttle, neutral on steady-state cornering - which was quite amusing on track...
The optimum would be a car that's very stiff laterally on turn-in, then gradually loosens up so you have maximum grip/traction coming out of the corner. This is what active/adaptive anti-roll bar systems like Tenneco's 4C (McLaren, Volvo) and to an extent frequency selective damping-based 'passive systems'(which I assume Intrax' ARC is a development of, they're quite secretive about it bar to say that in a way it's better than a closed-loop electronic system as 'they're always too late') do when adapted to performance cars.
You will have to balance this against the effects of body lean on grip, and the more positive turn-in a laterally stiff front end typically delivers as there's a lesser ount of body roll that needs to settle down into a steady cornering state.
Often, ARBs are used to tweak the fore-aft balance. On my old Saab, I had no ARB in the front (it needed all the traction it could get) but one in the rear. By making the rear end grip less this shifted the balance from 'slight to heavy understeer' to 'understeer on the throttle, oversteer off the throttle, neutral on steady-state cornering - which was quite amusing on track...
The optimum would be a car that's very stiff laterally on turn-in, then gradually loosens up so you have maximum grip/traction coming out of the corner. This is what active/adaptive anti-roll bar systems like Tenneco's 4C (McLaren, Volvo) and to an extent frequency selective damping-based 'passive systems'(which I assume Intrax' ARC is a development of, they're quite secretive about it bar to say that in a way it's better than a closed-loop electronic system as 'they're always too late') do when adapted to performance cars.
An anti roll bar is definitely a sticking plaster solution, what often gets overlooked is no suspension system using ARB's can be correctly described as fully independent. I've never really understood how manufactures get away with using the term "Fully Independent" when in nearly all cases there's a dirty great torsion bar physically tying both sides together 
But we need not concern ourselves too much with all this ARB and ARB drop link chat, because the Chimaera has more fundamental issues built in. The use of a front upright designed by Ford in the 1980's for a McPherson strut system on a car using coil overs seems to me the biggest limitation of the lot, then there's the short travel offered by the coil overs themselves and that's before you study their overly horizontal inclination.
Personally I choose to accept these limitations as part of the character of the car, what I can't accept is that my steering and suspension clearly needs the worn parts replacing or refurbishing... so this has to be my immediate focus.
It's actually quite surprising the only people that seem to have made a serious attempt at addressing the Ford Sierra front upright issue is Sportmotive... and I believe this upright will only work on their Evolution Chassis? What we need is a better all ally front upright that bolts straight onto a standard Chimaera with little or no modifications, you may well find then you don't need £4k Intrax coil overs to make the car handle? A pair of these retro fit bolt on aluminium front uprights may well be limited in their design by other parameters you cant easily change like the damper top mount to chassis position, but surely there's still scope to make a better job of things than simply sticking with an old Sierra front hub that's had a core plug knocked into it where a long travel McPherson strut was designed to go?
TVR knew all this themselves of course which is why every TVR following the Griff & Chimaaera used bespoke TVR fabricated front uprights. The first cars to get their own front uprights were Cerbera and Tuscan models but it seems TVR were still finding their feet with suspension design at this time, the Tuscan especially known for having notoriously twitchy steering. It wasn't until we got the Tamora & T350 that thinks came good, I'll put money on this being when TVR finally realised they needed to commission the services of a formerly trained suspension engineer
The rest of us with cars before the Tamora & T350 are left with varying degrees of amateur Heath Robinson suspension design that really demands a dramatic clean sheet approach, which isn't really practicality given the design constraints of the rest of the chassis/body architecture of a Chimaaera or Griffith. All this is why I'll just be trying to get what I have as good as I can make it without throwing the king's ransom at the project which understandably someone on the outside might perceive as trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
That sounds quite harsh, and the truth is if a Chimaera's suspension and steering are all exactly as they should be you can still have a lot of fun chucking one of these cars about, it'll never be an Evora but given my Chimaera clearly needs a thorough going through of all its suspension and steering components it makes sense to do just that, and to do so before I get too excited about spending a tonn of cash on a set of fancy coil overs.
Back on topic....
Who will be the first to come up with a rear drop link alternative that fits the Chimaera?
My bet is Racetech Direct already know the answer
But we need not concern ourselves too much with all this ARB and ARB drop link chat, because the Chimaera has more fundamental issues built in. The use of a front upright designed by Ford in the 1980's for a McPherson strut system on a car using coil overs seems to me the biggest limitation of the lot, then there's the short travel offered by the coil overs themselves and that's before you study their overly horizontal inclination.
Personally I choose to accept these limitations as part of the character of the car, what I can't accept is that my steering and suspension clearly needs the worn parts replacing or refurbishing... so this has to be my immediate focus.
It's actually quite surprising the only people that seem to have made a serious attempt at addressing the Ford Sierra front upright issue is Sportmotive... and I believe this upright will only work on their Evolution Chassis? What we need is a better all ally front upright that bolts straight onto a standard Chimaera with little or no modifications, you may well find then you don't need £4k Intrax coil overs to make the car handle? A pair of these retro fit bolt on aluminium front uprights may well be limited in their design by other parameters you cant easily change like the damper top mount to chassis position, but surely there's still scope to make a better job of things than simply sticking with an old Sierra front hub that's had a core plug knocked into it where a long travel McPherson strut was designed to go?
TVR knew all this themselves of course which is why every TVR following the Griff & Chimaaera used bespoke TVR fabricated front uprights. The first cars to get their own front uprights were Cerbera and Tuscan models but it seems TVR were still finding their feet with suspension design at this time, the Tuscan especially known for having notoriously twitchy steering. It wasn't until we got the Tamora & T350 that thinks came good, I'll put money on this being when TVR finally realised they needed to commission the services of a formerly trained suspension engineer
The rest of us with cars before the Tamora & T350 are left with varying degrees of amateur Heath Robinson suspension design that really demands a dramatic clean sheet approach, which isn't really practicality given the design constraints of the rest of the chassis/body architecture of a Chimaaera or Griffith. All this is why I'll just be trying to get what I have as good as I can make it without throwing the king's ransom at the project which understandably someone on the outside might perceive as trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
That sounds quite harsh, and the truth is if a Chimaera's suspension and steering are all exactly as they should be you can still have a lot of fun chucking one of these cars about, it'll never be an Evora but given my Chimaera clearly needs a thorough going through of all its suspension and steering components it makes sense to do just that, and to do so before I get too excited about spending a tonn of cash on a set of fancy coil overs.
Back on topic....
Who will be the first to come up with a rear drop link alternative that fits the Chimaera?
My bet is Racetech Direct already know the answer
Here's my best effort...
Nissan 200sx front drop links...
They're 105mm in length vs the 110mm of the TVR originals so that would make them a very close match indeed, but ideally we need the measurement from the lower bush saddle to the centre of the ball joint.
We're looking for the distance between my arrows to be exactly (or as close as possible) to the 70mm I measured on my Leven links.
Any of you own a Nissan 200sx or have a mate who does?
NB: I've just ordered one as they're only £12.41 each for the German made Febi Bilstein brand, I'm throwing my hard earned £12.41 at this for the potential good of you all, fec I'm nice..
Nissan 200sx front drop links...
They're 105mm in length vs the 110mm of the TVR originals so that would make them a very close match indeed, but ideally we need the measurement from the lower bush saddle to the centre of the ball joint.
We're looking for the distance between my arrows to be exactly (or as close as possible) to the 70mm I measured on my Leven links.
Any of you own a Nissan 200sx or have a mate who does?
NB: I've just ordered one as they're only £12.41 each for the German made Febi Bilstein brand, I'm throwing my hard earned £12.41 at this for the potential good of you all, fec I'm nice..
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Monday 12th September 18:44
Shirley it's the distance from the centre of the joint to the top of the lower rubber bush that needs to be close to the tvr one? To be honest I doubt that the length matters to much as long as they don't make the bar interfere with anything in its motion of travel and they are the same on both sides.I appreciate your purchase on this as I need a pair of rears and was planning on annoying the bloke at eurocarparts again by making him get all the options out while I stand there and try to match them with an old one.
I need to let him calm down a bit though after I did the same with track rod ends for half an hour and then didn't buy any, he hates me
s p a c e m a n said:
Shirley it's the distance from the centre of the joint to the top of the lower rubber bush that needs to be close to the tvr one?Well yes & no Shirley
The truth is the the lower bush saddle (washer) dictates everything as it's welded to shaft, you can then slide on a bush to suit or even cut down the ones that come with the Nissan links assuming they are thicker or the bush saddle (washer) is too far up the shaft. Its easier to adjust the bush or buy different ones than change where the washer sits, but like you say I doubt we need to me mm perfect here.
s p a c e m a n said:
I appreciate your purchase on this as I need a pair of rears and was planning on annoying the bloke at eurocarparts again by making him get all the options out while I stand there and try to match them with an old one.
The way I see it an hour of my time stood in Euro Car Parts is worth more than a £12.41 gamble, someone took a punt on the Honda ones then shared the results here, ultimately that person has saved me money so the least I can do is try to return the favour.If it all works out then I'll obviously share the info here with my fellow enthusiasts, the thing is when you share with the enthusiasts on Piston Heads you also share with the TVR parts specialist who trust me follow these pages closer than anyone, in this case they've already found the links that work but I'm sure you get my point
Fingers crossed Naisan 200sx front links will do the trick, if not all I will have lost is £12.41, BTW the track rod ends are off a Mk2 Escort or Mk3 Cortina, actually Ford used the same track rod end on a host of stuff from the late sixties right up to the early/mid eighties.
s p a c e m a n said:
I tried the mk2 escort ones, all dimensions were correct but the thread pitch to the rod was wrong. I need to investigate a bit more, I've got my car in way too many pieces at the moment though so I'm dealing more with the big bits first
MK2 Escorts never had drop links fitted front or rear Sardonicus said:
s p a c e m a n said:
I tried the mk2 escort ones, all dimensions were correct but the thread pitch to the rod was wrong. I need to investigate a bit more, I've got my car in way too many pieces at the moment though so I'm dealing more with the big bits first
MK2 Escorts never had drop links fitted front or rear He's talking about track rod ends Simon...
These ones..
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/311489441154?_trksid=p20...
Well I hope they are, I've just bought a set
Yeah, non RS Mk2 escort track rod ends. Googling the part number I found on my old one even sent me to burtons for a pair, but they wouldn't screw onto the steering rack because the thread was the wrong pitch. Let us know how you get on with the ones you've ordered and I'll give it another go, I could've been sent the wrong part I suppose
s p a c e m a n said:
Yeah, non RS Mk2 escort track rod ends. Googling the part number I found on my old one even sent me to burtons for a pair, but they wouldn't screw onto the steering rack because the thread was the wrong pitch. Let us know how you get on with the ones you've ordered and I'll give it another go, I could've been sent the wrong part I suppose
Six years ago I fitted a pair of Mk3 Cortina track rod ends with no problems whatsoever, and I'm not anticipating any issues with the ones I've just bought either.Honestly it's such a common part, Ford used the same track rod end for the best part of 20 years on a host of models, the thread is M14x2.
The Ford part number is: 5 021 411
Or you could choose from a host of alternatives:
DELPHI TA687
FEBI BILSTEIN 11988
FIRST LINE FTR4040
FIRST LINE FTR4216
LEMFORDER 11644
LEMFORDER 1164401
MAPCO 19732
MOOG FDBJ0335
MOOG FDES0334
NK 5032503
OCAP 0280655
OPTIMAL G1071
QUINTON HAZELL QR1384S
RTS 9100612
RTS 9100614
RUVILLE 915212
SIDEM 1630
SWAG 50710022
TRISCAN 8500138400
VAICO V259556
Belle427 said:
I took my rear anti roll bar off a year ago while I waited for new drop links to arrive, it's still gathering dust in the garage as I noticed feck all difference when driving on the road.
It's a good point you make, what you've done by removing the rear anti roll bar is:- Given your Chimaera true independent rear suspension
- Improved rear traction especially in the wet
- Removed a common cause of annoying knocks and rattles (ie the rear ARB drop links)
- Removed some weight from the rear of your car
I stuck my old original ancient Bilsteins on the back of my Chimaera just so I could move the car while my GGPs are being rebuilt, I then removed both totally knackered Leven drop links. By rights I really shouldn't have driven the car like this especially as the spring rates on the Billies are way too soft given the extra 50kg of LPG kit in my boot.
But I couldn't resist trying it, so I went for a very gentle run on those tired old Billies with their 275lb springs and no rear anti roll bar connected. The first thing I noticed was how quiet the rear of the car was, no real surprise here given one of my Gaz Gold Pros had lost all it's oil and the Leven links were totally shot. However, with the rear end so much quieter the next two things that dominated my senses were the squeaking front Gaz Gold Pros and a general looseness from the front end at speed which leads me to accept I'll need to completely go through the front steering & suspension including refurbishing the front Gaz Gold Pros to match what I'm doing with the rear.
The big surprise was those 1996 original Billies with their way too light spring rates gave a really nice ride, although I wasn't exactly throwing the car about I also noticed nothing untoward from disconnecting the rear ARB other than a significant reduction in rattles and other annoying noises.
With all this in mind I'm going to fit my rebuilt Gaz Gold Pros and initially leave the ARB disconnected, I'll run it like that for a week or two to see how I get on. I'll then fit the Nissan drop links to the rear and see what difference it makes, this will give me an immediate back to back comparison to help me decide if the rear ARB stays or goes. I don't do track days, the way I see it my LPG TVR is a fast economical road going GT classic sports car, as such I tend to use it for continental touring and some light back lane scratching at most so it may well be deleting my rear ARB will suit me perfectly?
Interesting...
Very interesting Dave, the first thing I felt when removing the rear ARB was the independent suspension, as you say if your not tracking it and don't mind the slight extra body roll which I feel is the main result in removing the ARB and your not race fantastic on the roads then your probably right in thinking you'll not need it.
I don't notice any real difference on a daily basis without it, at speed and into corners it does feel slightly vague (loose as yanks would say) but that's at 120 + how often are you doing that on the roads and especially around corners,, hardly ever I'd imagine.
When I went to France I loaded the car with tools I didn't really need, I have to agree with you that that extra weight made the car feel far more stable and planted, I actually thought of your car that day
My car is much more like any other car with that extra weight, no nodding dog, rear brakes actually do something and it's all far more civilised, driving at high speed I'm not sure it's an advantage but again how often do we drive at hi speed!
I'd like to try some Billies with a firmer Spring, I think all the after market shocks below £1500 are Poor to be honest and the Billies are a high quality shock.
If I can grow up and stay away from race tracks then I don't really need adjustable shocks and the Billies might be right for my lazy road driving style. Just a thought
I don't notice any real difference on a daily basis without it, at speed and into corners it does feel slightly vague (loose as yanks would say) but that's at 120 + how often are you doing that on the roads and especially around corners,, hardly ever I'd imagine.
When I went to France I loaded the car with tools I didn't really need, I have to agree with you that that extra weight made the car feel far more stable and planted, I actually thought of your car that day
My car is much more like any other car with that extra weight, no nodding dog, rear brakes actually do something and it's all far more civilised, driving at high speed I'm not sure it's an advantage but again how often do we drive at hi speed!
I'd like to try some Billies with a firmer Spring, I think all the after market shocks below £1500 are Poor to be honest and the Billies are a high quality shock.
If I can grow up and stay away from race tracks then I don't really need adjustable shocks and the Billies might be right for my lazy road driving style. Just a thought
ChimpOnGas said:
Six years ago I fitted a pair of Mk3 Cortina track rod ends with no problems whatsoever, and I'm not anticipating any issues with the ones I've just bought either.
Honestly it's such a common part, Ford used the same track rod end for the best part of 20 years on a host of models, the thread is M14x2.
The Ford part number is: 5 021 411
Or you could choose from a host of alternatives:
DELPHI TA687
FEBI BILSTEIN 11988
FIRST LINE FTR4040
FIRST LINE FTR4216
LEMFORDER 11644
LEMFORDER 1164401
MAPCO 19732
MOOG FDBJ0335
MOOG FDES0334
NK 5032503
OCAP 0280655
OPTIMAL G1071
QUINTON HAZELL QR1384S
RTS 9100612
RTS 9100614
RUVILLE 915212
SIDEM 1630
SWAG 50710022
TRISCAN 8500138400
VAICO V259556
Thats currently what I have fitted Dave MK3/4/5 I changed them while doing the rack gaiters about 10 years ago now Honestly it's such a common part, Ford used the same track rod end for the best part of 20 years on a host of models, the thread is M14x2.
The Ford part number is: 5 021 411
Or you could choose from a host of alternatives:
DELPHI TA687
FEBI BILSTEIN 11988
FIRST LINE FTR4040
FIRST LINE FTR4216
LEMFORDER 11644
LEMFORDER 1164401
MAPCO 19732
MOOG FDBJ0335
MOOG FDES0334
NK 5032503
OCAP 0280655
OPTIMAL G1071
QUINTON HAZELL QR1384S
RTS 9100612
RTS 9100614
RUVILLE 915212
SIDEM 1630
SWAG 50710022
TRISCAN 8500138400
VAICO V259556
my bad Spaceman should have read the post properly ChimpOnGas said:
It's actually quite surprising the only people that seem to have made a serious attempt at addressing the Ford Sierra front upright issue is Sportmotive... and I believe this upright will only work on their Evolution Chassis? What we need is a better all ally front upright that bolts straight onto a standard Chimaera with little or no modifications, you may well find then you don't need £4k Intrax coil overs to make the car handle?
Already on the case with Sportmotive... in January they told me on my enquiry that they were developing a set of replacement wishbones to work with their bespoke upright... however the customer uptake of their Evolution chassis has put any development for standard chassis on the back burner.Maybe a gentle nudge (group buy) from the likes of us would nudge things in the right direction.
It has to be said, though, that I feel the most urgent problems of the standard Chimaera/Griffith set up are a lack of composure, especially the rear end is poorly controlled. Many tried to solve the problem by stiffening spring and damping rates, but that works counterproductive anywhere except on smooth(ish) race tracks. The Sierra upright has been part and parcel of many Sevens - even quite ambitious ones - and you don't hear many say that they don't handle... Getting something lighter and with a more suitable kingpin inclination would merely be the cherry on the cake, improving front end response and feel.
ChimpOnGas said:
TVR knew all this themselves of course which is why every TVR following the Griff & Chimaaera used bespoke TVR fabricated front uprights. The first cars to get their own front uprights were Cerbera and Tuscan models but it seems TVR were still finding their feet with suspension design at this time, the Tuscan especially known for having notoriously twitchy steering. It wasn't until we got the Tamora & T350 that thinks came good, I'll put money on this being when TVR finally realised they needed to commission the services of a formerly trained suspension engineer
In the course of our Tuscan project I spent quite a few hours tracing the development of the T-car chassis and was more than a bit surprised to find that the uprights and wishbones on our 2002 car were exactly the same as the Tamora, T350 and Tuscan 2. The only difference is the steering rack - 1.75 turns lock to lock, engine-driven, hydraulically assisted on our Tuscan and 2 turns lock to lock, with an electric PS pump. However, I wouldn't be suprised if the steering rack of the later cars wasn't actually any less quick, but simply offered more lock (something made possible by the latest top front wishbones from early 2002) by way of modified lock stops. There have been two versions of the front upright - one with 152 mm center bore caliper mounts for the early cars, and one that TVR says is stronger, with 130 mm center bore caliper mounts for everything since.
There have been three sets of front wishbones - the early ones that were prone to bump steer which were replaced with a modified set up from April 2001 onwards, then the top wishbone, as said, was modified again to allow for more steering lock.
The Sagaris differes from all the other cars through wishbone 'outrigger' mounts that extend further outwards and thus give a wider track (and different geometry) with the same wishbone set up.
ClassiChimi said:
When I went to France I loaded the car with tools I didn't really need, I I'd like to try some Billies with a firmer Spring, I think all the after market shocks below £1500 are Poor to be honest and the Billies are a high quality shock.
I agree with that sentiment - if you don't need the adjustability feature for 'serious' track outings I recomment the Bilsteins over all 'affordable' aftermarket alternatives - you will need to go to Intrax/Ohlins to get a significant benefit over them IMO.Gassing Station | Chimaera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff