Retrofitting Power Steering - what is the best option?

[TV8]

phazed said:

Graham, you're a really nice bloke an all but you couldn't be more wrong! Manual racks are appealling..............

EFA

[carsy]

ChimpOnGas said:

You only need power steering on a Chimaera below 30mph,

Hmm, i`m not so sure Dave. My Griff was manual and i converted to the Scooby set up last Winter.

With the manual rack, even at speeds of 30/40mph if it was a tight corner you still had to give the thing a good heave to get it round. Motorway speeds yes it was fine but in reality here we are only going in a straight line.

I did consider the Corsa electric column but felt it a step too far with the welding needed to the column and the pedal box modifications.

One thing i will say is that without the power steering switched on my Scooby set up is not that much heavier than my manual rack was. I then get into my sons Corsa and without his pas on you struggle to turn the steering wheel such is the difference.

I really like my Scooby set up and the car is now a real pleasure to drive with effortless steering. The only slight criticism i have is that my Astra pump is a tad noisy. Now it was a £25er off Ebay so may have seen better days as i know other people using the Astra pump dont have excess noise and Peter with his 106 pump doesnt have any whine.

Horses for courses etc but either way OP get it done. Either way you wont regret it.

[jazzdude]

I think I agree that I am also put off with the amount of cutting and welding the Corsa Epas system seems to need, and at the end of the day you still have the manual rack and its longer turning ratio.

I think I have decided to go the Scooby rack with the Astra pump, only in that the pump looks like a very straight forward fit on the crossmember in front of the Y piece, and is an all in one unit.

The Saxo option, with the separate resevoir tank seems a little more of a flaff as I see people prefer to put the pumps in the nose cone, which would mean taking out the radiator and it then being inaccessible if the £30 used part needs changing once it dies, a guaranteed 3 months + 1 day after purchase.

[N7GTX]

jazzdude said:

My mini Cooper s has electric steering and it has recently developed a problem.

As you are driving the steering goes rock hard. You can just about still steer the car but anyone with less strength would probably not be able to get it to the side of the road safely.

Quickly turning the car off and on again cures it but as this has started happening a bit more regularly it's going in to a sparky here who will take the system to bits and recondition it.

A simple swap for the whole unit as its a very common fault. Worth calling BMW as there was a free recall for many. I got mine from BBA Reman with a lifetime warranty.

https://www.bba-reman.com/us/index.aspx

[stevesprint]

carsy said:

ChimpOnGas said:

You only need power steering on a Chimaera below 30mph,

Hmm, i`m not so sure Dave. My Griff was manual and i converted to the Scooby set up last Winter.

With the manual rack, even at speeds of 30/40mph if it was a tight corner you still had to give the thing a good heave to get it round. Motorway speeds yes it was fine but in reality here we are only going in a straight line.

Carsy
You are correct I discovered 30 mph was just to low, I have a Corsa B with a fully programmable steering ECU and raised my electrical assistance cut off above 40 mph but could easily raise it higher for a track day. The programmable ECU turned my worst mod into my best mod and I’m not refering to the engine ECU as COG suggests.

For further info see my last post here
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

RV8 - I'm doing my bit for global warming

[stevesprint]

jazzdude said:

To be honest, bolting a used Corsa B EPAS system to the car worries me. Even though a hydraulic system maybe older tech, if it goes wrong, it just leaks.

Having a motor attached to the steering column that could decide to turn the wheel if it goes wrong scares me.

Am I wrong?

My electic PAS setup has been brilliant and faultless for the last 4 years. In the unlikely event of anything going wrong the steering ECU shuts down and turns on the warning light and you are left driving with manual steering, and anyone familiar with manual steering wouldn't notice any difference. I personally fitted an ECU kill switch so I can force it back to manual if required but never used it. When the ECU is off or shutsdown the steering is no heaver than manual steering and safe to drive. If their was a risk of the motor turning the wheel if it goes wrong then Electric PAS wouldn't pass road safely standards.

Edited by stevesprint on Wednesday 26th October 17:56

[TV8]

stevesprint said:

Carsy
You are correct I discovered 30 mph was just to low, I have a Corsa B with a fully programmable steering ECU and raised my electrical assistance cut off above 40 mph but could easily raise it higher for a track day. The programmable ECU turned my worst mod into my best mod and I’m not refering to the engine ECU as COG suggests.

For further info see my last post here
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

RV8 - I'm doing my bit for global warming

Hi Steve,
How's you?

How many turns lock to lock does your rack have please? Light below 40 and manual above sounds ideal!

[stevesprint]

TV8 said:

Hi Steve,
How's you?

How many turns lock to lock does your rack have please? Light below 40 and manual above sounds ideal!

Graham
Good to hear from you, I’ve learnt a lot more about the old 14CUX since we last met, including improving “closed loop throttle management” in COG own words, Sorry off topic.

I use my original standard manual rack which has between 2.5 & 2.75 turns lock to lock and is not restricted for my Spiders, I believe the power racks have less turns.

How many turns do the standard power racks & scooby racks have??? and what's the pros and cons of more/less turns???

[TV8]

Hi Steve,
I still watch the remap thread with interest though lost my understanding of it a while back as some new people seem to be doing different variants?

Re turns lock to lock, I am glad to hear that you have the standard rack, the natural weighting and extra 1/3 turn each side lock to lock make a big difference in my opion. I had the benefit of driving standard TVR PAS and non PAS cars back to back for a couple of months and both cars had similar suspension, tyres and good set-up, so it was a valid comparison.

TVR PAS is to light for me and coupled with a quick rack, it makes you correct every bit of feedback through the wheel!

[ChimpOnGas]

stevesprint said:

My electic PAS setup has been brilliant and faultless for the last 4 years. In the unlikely event of anything going wrong the steering ECU shuts down and turns on the warning light and you are left driving with manual steering, and anyone familiar with manual steering wouldn't notice any difference. I personally fitted an ECU kill switch so I can force it back to manual if required but never used it. When the ECU is off or shutsdown the steering is no heaver than manual steering and safe to drive. If their was a risk of the motor turning the wheel if it goes wrong then Electric PAS wouldn't pass road safely standards.

Edited by stevesprint on Wednesday 26th October 17:56

There you go, real world electric PAS experience on a manual rack Chimera.

For the record OEM electric PAS on new cars has become so commonplace and trusted its often designed to do much of the work, in such cases the steering will become quite heavy if the system fails. This is a very different situation to retro fitting an electric PAS system to a car equipped with its original manual rack because the manual rack was already designed to offer manageable steering so clearly far less assistance is required.

As stevesprint says "When the ECU is switched off (simulating a failure) the steering is no heaver than the manual rack the system is assisting, it is therefore completely safe to drive".

The nice thing about electric PAS is it can be fitted to just about any car that never came with PAS in the first place, by using the existing steering rack (or box) and all the other steering components instillation is greatly simplified. This makes electric PAS the default option for converting older classic cars, there are lots of companies offering it because of the installation flexibility and the fact its been completely proven to work incredibly well.

Thousands of classics have been converted this way and the trend is only set to grow, one group of early adopters was on the classic rally scene where its now more common to see EPAS on a Mk1/2 Escort than not, these guys are properly pushing their cars at high speed on loose surfaces between trees and other immovable objects, do you really think they would fit EPAS if it wasn't completely safe?

Here's what the biggest player in the market (EZ steering) have to say....

"In the unlikely event of the unit failing to operate or a power failure, the steering will be exactly the same as prior to the conversion". "Additionally the drop in assistance will be very gradual, usually after 1 or 2 seconds so avoiding a jerk in the steering wheel should this occur in a fast turn". "If the electromotor should ever jam, there is a clutch unit which uncouples it from the steering column insuring the steering will always function freely".

The Yanks have been fitting it for years with great results:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnIxjjSnDo8

And here's EPAS fitted to a really cheap old Merc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPuFnFpp5oc

Nobody would risk fitting an unsafe steering assist system to a car worth well over a million quid

[Englishman]

Just to ensure you get a balanced view of EPAS, take a look at this:

http://www.fordproblems.com/trends/electronic-powe...

[jazzdude]

Do you know where a blow by blow DIY instructable might be for the Corsa installation on a Chim?

I would be very interested to read it.

[phazed]

jazzdude said:

Do you know where a blow by blow DIY instructable might be for the Corsa installation on a Chim?

I would be very interested to read it.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=887651

You are more than welcome to try my Scooby set up.

[N7GTX]

Englishman said:

Just to ensure you get a balanced view of EPAS, take a look at this:

http://www.fordproblems.com/trends/electronic-powe...

Well said that man.
In each link below the words 'very common failure' will be seen. I work with these cars every day, diagnosing and repairing them. I deal with these companies as do all the local garages that I work with.
EPS does fail and it fails far more frequently than you might be led to believe.

http://www.power-steering.co.uk/vauxhall-corsa-bia...
+
http://www.ecutesting.com/fiat_punto_electric_powe...
+
http://www.ecutesting.com/vauxhall_corsa_c_electri...
+
http://www.ecutesting.com/mito_electric_power_stee...
+
http://www.ecutesting.com/renault_modus_eps_electr...
When the steering fails suddenly you may feel as though you are trying to steer a tank as the steering will become very heavy indeed
+
http://www.ecutesting.com/catalogue/product/peugeo...
+
http://www.ecutesting.com/mini_power_steering_pump...

Then there is BBA Reman the biggest re-manufacturer of vehicle components:
+
http://www.bba-reman.com/us/content.aspx?content=v...
and so on and on.

Electric power steering can and does fail and is far more common than you think. If I was to change my manual I would probably opt for the one Phazed has using the Peugeot/Citroen 106/Saxo unit mentioned earlier.

[jazzdude]

One thing I liked about the Scooby, Astra/Saxo option, is if the pump packs in, it seems you can just take it out and drop in another unit sourced off EBAY, without a major disruption.

Unless you can do the same with the EPAS unit, ie, change just the motor which I assume is the one item that can pack in, I wouldnt want to be fabricating new steering columns each time.

[phazed]

True, my 106/Saxo pump can be changed in less than an hour.

In fact I did as the first pump was a bit noisy, (eBay £20.00) and the later one is silent, (eBay £40.00).

[phazed]

True, my 106/Saxo pump can be changed in less than an hour.

In fact I did as the first pump was a bit noisy, (eBay £20.00) and the later one is silent, (eBay £40.00).

[jazzdude]

One thing I liked about the Scooby, Astra/Saxo option, is if the pump packs in, it seems you can just take it out and drop in another unit sourced off EBAY, without a major disruption.

Unless you can do the same with the EPAS unit, ie, change just the motor which I assume is the one item that can pack in, I wouldnt want to be fabricating new steering columns each time.

[jazzdude]

phazed said:

True, my 106/Saxo pump can be changed in less than an hour.

In fact I did as the first pump was a bit noisy, (eBay £20.00) and the later one is silent, (eBay £40.00).

Why did you gop for the Saxo pump instead of the Astra option? Was it easier to locate and install?

[phazed]

Seems like there's a bit of a stutter going on........