Ceramic plug leads - any long term issues?
Discussion
ChimpOnGas said:
Another good reason why I chose MSD Super Conductors, the plug ends on these leads are bendable so you can achieve the perfect individual boot angle to clear each header tube.
The double bagging is really just a belt & braces last line of defence as I wanted to over engineer the deletion of my extenders, which are the spawn of the Devil as far as I'm concerned.
The MSD Super Conductor plug ends are super heat resistant in themselves, custom bent to each each header tube you don't really need the extra protection at all. They're also great performing leads too, for many years MSD Super Conductors have been the go-to wires for most hot rodders in the States... and for good reason.
Interesting, just having a look at these online, did you go for the universal set? Can only see them listed in the statesThe double bagging is really just a belt & braces last line of defence as I wanted to over engineer the deletion of my extenders, which are the spawn of the Devil as far as I'm concerned.
The MSD Super Conductor plug ends are super heat resistant in themselves, custom bent to each each header tube you don't really need the extra protection at all. They're also great performing leads too, for many years MSD Super Conductors have been the go-to wires for most hot rodders in the States... and for good reason.
I chose to go with the below, not cheap and only available in the states but high quality items.
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/msd-31193/o...
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/dei-010542/...
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/msd-31193/o...
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/dei-010542/...
Matthew Poxon said:
Double bag aye CoG. It has been a while since I have been with a bird that dirty I have felt the need to double bag. 
In all seriousness I do think your solution is the best here. The issue for me is I am really not that keen on the look of the socks. The ceramic leads do look quite sexy so I am being swayed.
Hello there
No issues so far from myself an Mr JACKSON,best move we didIn all seriousness I do think your solution is the best here. The issue for me is I am really not that keen on the look of the socks. The ceramic leads do look quite sexy so I am being swayed.
Hello there
Matthew Poxon said:
Double bag aye CoG. It has been a while since I have been with a bird that dirty I have felt the need to double bag.
In all seriousness I do think your solution is the best here. The issue for me is I am really not that keen on the look of the socks. The ceramic leads do look quite sexy so I am being swayed.
Hello there
Dom fitted these socks and no issues. Stainless manifolds badly wrapped In all seriousness I do think your solution is the best here. The issue for me is I am really not that keen on the look of the socks. The ceramic leads do look quite sexy so I am being swayed.
Hello there
greenhulk said:
ChimpOnGas said:
Another good reason why I chose MSD Super Conductors, the plug ends on these leads are bendable so you can achieve the perfect individual boot angle to clear each header tube.
The double bagging is really just a belt & braces last line of defence as I wanted to over engineer the deletion of my extenders, which are the spawn of the Devil as far as I'm concerned.
The MSD Super Conductor plug ends are super heat resistant in themselves, custom bent to each each header tube you don't really need the extra protection at all. They're also great performing leads too, for many years MSD Super Conductors have been the go-to wires for most hot rodders in the States... and for good reason.
Interesting, just having a look at these online, did you go for the universal set? Can only see them listed in the statesThe double bagging is really just a belt & braces last line of defence as I wanted to over engineer the deletion of my extenders, which are the spawn of the Devil as far as I'm concerned.
The MSD Super Conductor plug ends are super heat resistant in themselves, custom bent to each each header tube you don't really need the extra protection at all. They're also great performing leads too, for many years MSD Super Conductors have been the go-to wires for most hot rodders in the States... and for good reason.
The MSD Super Conductors really are first rate leads, I'm using performance MSD coil packs for a mid 90's Ford Mustang which have a different ratio between the primary and secondary coil windings to standard Ford coils, before the MSD Super Conductors this 40kv welt combined with the extra strain lighting LPG puts on the whole ignition system soon found the weak point... this weak point turned out to be my kv85 Magnecor leads.
With the MSD Super Conductor leads fitted I haven't had a singe issue since.
I use LPG LaserLine spark plugs in a 6 heat rating, these are dual precious metal spark plugs specifically developed for gas-fuelled engines. The combustion of gas is hotter and very different from the combustion of petrol and therefore requires spark plugs which are specially adapted to these conditions. The gas-air mixtures are considerably more difficult to ignite, more ignition voltage is required so the risk of failure of ignition coils and HT leads is greatly increased as demonstrated by the fact I literally blew up my Magnecor kv85s.
What all this proves is... if the MSD Super Conductor leads can deliver 100% reliability on my LPG powered TVR with it's uprated wasted spark ignition system with MSD performance coil packs, these leads will be massively over engineered on a Chimaera burning petrol on a distributor and single coil setup
I can highly recommend the MSD Super Conductor leads, like the special NGK LPG iridium (6) spark plugs these leads have totally proven themselves to be 100% bullet proof over literally thousands of miles of severe ignition punishment
ChimpOnGas said:
I use LPG LaserLine spark plugs in a 6 heat rating, these are dual precious metal spark plugs specifically developed for gas-fuelled engines. The combustion of gas is hotter and very different from the combustion of petrol and therefore requires spark plugs which are specially adapted to these conditions. The gas-air mixtures are considerably more difficult to ignite, more ignition voltage is required so the risk of failure of ignition coils and HT leads is greatly increased as demonstrated by the fact I literally blew up my Magnecor kv85s.
What all this proves is... if the MSD Super Conductor leads can deliver 100% reliability on my LPG powered TVR with it's uprated wasted spark ignition system with MSD performance coil packs, these leads will be massively over engineered on a Chimaera burning petrol on a distributor and single coil setup
I can highly recommend the MSD Super Conductor leads, like the special NGK LPG iridium (6) spark plugs these leads have totally proven themselves to be 100% bullet proof over literally thousands of miles of severe ignition punishment
Nice to see another happy user of the LPG Plugs What all this proves is... if the MSD Super Conductor leads can deliver 100% reliability on my LPG powered TVR with it's uprated wasted spark ignition system with MSD performance coil packs, these leads will be massively over engineered on a Chimaera burning petrol on a distributor and single coil setup
I can highly recommend the MSD Super Conductor leads, like the special NGK LPG iridium (6) spark plugs these leads have totally proven themselves to be 100% bullet proof over literally thousands of miles of severe ignition punishment
I just thought I would explain a bit further about the plug as am in charge of Product management at NGK UK. As you are aware, all of the 'normal' NGK spark plugs have a numerical character in the part number denoting the heat range of the item. The LPG plugs do not have this and the digit in their part number is just a series number. There are 8 LPG specific plugs that we manufacture with their part numbers ranging from LPG1 to LPG8
These 8 items can cover the majority of applications in our data. As you have found the heat range of these is indeed different to a 'normal' plug due to the higher combustion temperatures related to LPG. How this differs is that the plugs have a 'wider' heat range than normal plugs to ensure that there is no carbon fouling whilst the initial start up on Petrol, and no overheating when fully up to temp and running on Gas. The precious metal and plating processes to extend the life of the plug and focus the energy on the centre electrode
Although I have not read the whole thread and do not know what car you have the LPG6 fitted to, I assume it is a TVR Chimaera which should not be using extra projected plugs such as the LPG6 with 5mm projection. LPG1 (with 3.5mm projection) would be closer in terms of spark position to your original plugs or have I read your post incorrectly?
V8 TEJ said:
Nice to see another happy user of the LPG Plugs
I just thought I would explain a bit further about the plug as am in charge of Product management at NGK UK. As you are aware, all of the 'normal' NGK spark plugs have a numerical character in the part number denoting the heat range of the item. The LPG plugs do not have this and the digit in their part number is just a series number. There are 8 LPG specific plugs that we manufacture with their part numbers ranging from LPG1 to LPG8 These 8 items can cover the majority of applications in our data.
As you have found the heat range of these is indeed different to a 'normal' plug due to the higher combustion temperatures related to LPG. How this differs is that the plugs have a 'wider' heat range than normal plugs to ensure that there is no carbon fouling whilst the initial start up on Petrol, and no overheating when fully up to temp and running on Gas. The precious metal and plating processes to extend the life of the plug and focus the energy on the centre electrode
Although I have not read the whole thread and do not know what car you have the LPG6 fitted to, I assume it is a TVR Chimaera which should not be using extra projected plugs such as the LPG6 with 5mm projection. LPG1 (with 3.5mm projection) would be closer in terms of spark position to your original plugs or have I read your post incorrectly?
Thanks for your input Tej, actually I should have been more clear, I probably confused you there by quoting (6).I just thought I would explain a bit further about the plug as am in charge of Product management at NGK UK. As you are aware, all of the 'normal' NGK spark plugs have a numerical character in the part number denoting the heat range of the item. The LPG plugs do not have this and the digit in their part number is just a series number. There are 8 LPG specific plugs that we manufacture with their part numbers ranging from LPG1 to LPG8
These 8 items can cover the majority of applications in our data. As you have found the heat range of these is indeed different to a 'normal' plug due to the higher combustion temperatures related to LPG. How this differs is that the plugs have a 'wider' heat range than normal plugs to ensure that there is no carbon fouling whilst the initial start up on Petrol, and no overheating when fully up to temp and running on Gas. The precious metal and plating processes to extend the life of the plug and focus the energy on the centre electrode
Although I have not read the whole thread and do not know what car you have the LPG6 fitted to, I assume it is a TVR Chimaera which should not be using extra projected plugs such as the LPG6 with 5mm projection. LPG1 (with 3.5mm projection) would be closer in terms of spark position to your original plugs or have I read your post incorrectly?
The truth is I actually use NGK LPG2 in my dual fuel TVR Chimaera as this is the plug you specify for the Range Rover II (P38), the (6) I quoted was for the benefit of the other guys on this forum, as petrol users they are typically only familiar with the traditional plug heat ratings (5,6,7 ect).
Essentially 90% of TVR Chimaera's (mine included) use a very mildly breathed on version of the exact same Rover V8 engine used in the p38 Range Rover, so I hope you agree my selection of the NGK LPG2 makes perfect sense?
https://www.gsparkplug.com/media/wysiwyg/technical...
As I'm sure you know NGK specify the yellow box BPR6ES for the P38 Range Rover and these tend to work extremely well in the TVR Chimaera too, which should also come as no surprise as the engine in most variants of the Chimaera is (all be if for a cam and double valve springs) exactly the same as that fitted to a P38 Range Rover.
Having used the NGK brand both professionally and personally for over 25 years with great success I started to get interested in the new breed of iridium tipped plugs you offer, so some years ago and before even converting my TVR Chimaera to LPG I experimented with a set of BPR6EIX which you list as a direct replacement to the BPR6ES.
I found the BPR6EIX yielded idle quality improvements and other benefits over the BPR6ES, because of this very positive experience and only after I'd converted the car to run on LPG I decided to try a set of NGK LPG2 plugs. To be honest I found the LPG LaserLine spark plugs very expensive and lots of people running LPG told me not to bother with them, but I took the plunge because years of experience has taught me I can totally trust the NGK brand and their products.
More than two years on and thousands of miles later my LPG2 LaserLines have proved themselves to be extremely durable and excellent performing plugs, recently (as a test) I removed them to see how the car would run on a new set of BPR6ES which in my experience always work well in this engine on petrol (if not quite as well as the BPR6EIX). On LPG with the set of BPR6ES the car had a more ragged idle and seemed to lack a fraction of low down torque as I pulled away from junctions. After a week I removed the BPR6ES and put my LPG2 LaserLines back in and immediately the idle cleared and the normal crisp throttle response was resumed.
These LPG specific LaserLine plugs from NGK are expensive but it's clear to me on gas they are well worth the money, for the majority just burning petrol and using BPR6ES plugs my experience is the cheaper BPR6EIX is sufficient and a worthwhile upgrade. Thanks for taking the time to respond on this post, it's really nice to hear from a professional in the spark plug industry, especially one from what I consider to be the best producer of spark plugs in the world.. NGK.
I will continue to use, recommend and endorse your products but only because in my experience the NGK brand never makes false claims and only produces the very highest quality products. I'm based in Rickmasworth so very close to your offices in Hemel Hempstead, if you ever wanted to use my car to promote the LPG LaserLine range I'd be more than happy to oblige.
It might make an interesting marketing tool as the car is after all a rather unusual candidate for LPG
Thanks, Dave.
ChimpOnGas said:
Thanks for your input Tej, actually I should have been more clear, I probably confused you there by quoting (6).
The truth is I actually use NGK LPG2 in my dual fuel TVR Chimaera as this is the plug you specify for the Range Rover II (P38), the (6) I quoted was for the benefit of the other guys on this forum, as petrol users they are typically only familiar with the traditional plug heat ratings (5,6,7 ect).
Essentially 90% of TVR Chimaera's (mine included) use a very mildly breathed on version of the exact same Rover V8 engine used in the p38 Range Rover, so I hope you agree my selection of the NGK LPG2 makes perfect sense?
https://www.gsparkplug.com/media/wysiwyg/technical...
As I'm sure you know NGK specify the yellow box BPR6ES for the P38 Range Rover and these tend to work extremely well in the TVR Chimaera too, which should also come as no surprise as the engine in most variants of the Chimaera is (all be if for a cam and double valve springs) exactly the same as that fitted to a P38 Range Rover.
Having used the NGK brand both professionally and personally for over 25 years with great success I started to get interested in the new breed of iridium tipped plugs you offer, so some years ago and before even converting my TVR Chimaera to LPG I experimented with a set of BPR6EIX which you list as a direct replacement to the BPR6ES.
I found the BPR6EIX yielded idle quality improvements and other benefits over the BPR6ES, because of this very positive experience and only after I'd converted the car to run on LPG I decided to try a set of NGK LPG2 plugs. To be honest I found the LPG LaserLine spark plugs very expensive and lots of people running LPG told me not to bother with them, but I took the plunge because years of experience has taught me I can totally trust the NGK brand and their products.
More than two years on and thousands of miles later my LPG2 LaserLines have proved themselves to be extremely durable and excellent performing plugs, recently (as a test) I removed them to see how the car would run on a new set of BPR6ES which in my experience always work well in this engine on petrol (if not quite as well as the BPR6EIX). On LPG with the set of BPR6ES the car had a more ragged idle and seemed to lack a fraction of low down torque as I pulled away from junctions. After a week I removed the BPR6ES and put my LPG2 LaserLines back in and immediately the idle cleared and the normal crisp throttle response was resumed.
These LPG specific LaserLine plugs from NGK are expensive but it's clear to me on gas they are well worth the money, for the majority just burning petrol and using BPR6ES plugs my experience is the cheaper BPR6EIX is sufficient and a worthwhile upgrade. Thanks for taking the time to respond on this post, it's really nice to hear from a professional in the spark plug industry, especially one from what I consider to be the best producer of spark plugs in the world.. NGK.
I will continue to use, recommend and endorse your products but only because in my experience the NGK brand never makes false claims and only produces the very highest quality products. I'm based in Rickmasworth so very close to your offices in Hemel Hempstead, if you ever wanted to use my car to promote the LPG LaserLine range I'd be more than happy to oblige.
It might make an interesting marketing tool as the car is after all a rather unusual candidate for LPG
Thanks, Dave.
Apologies for the thread hijack, The truth is I actually use NGK LPG2 in my dual fuel TVR Chimaera as this is the plug you specify for the Range Rover II (P38), the (6) I quoted was for the benefit of the other guys on this forum, as petrol users they are typically only familiar with the traditional plug heat ratings (5,6,7 ect).
Essentially 90% of TVR Chimaera's (mine included) use a very mildly breathed on version of the exact same Rover V8 engine used in the p38 Range Rover, so I hope you agree my selection of the NGK LPG2 makes perfect sense?
https://www.gsparkplug.com/media/wysiwyg/technical...
As I'm sure you know NGK specify the yellow box BPR6ES for the P38 Range Rover and these tend to work extremely well in the TVR Chimaera too, which should also come as no surprise as the engine in most variants of the Chimaera is (all be if for a cam and double valve springs) exactly the same as that fitted to a P38 Range Rover.
Having used the NGK brand both professionally and personally for over 25 years with great success I started to get interested in the new breed of iridium tipped plugs you offer, so some years ago and before even converting my TVR Chimaera to LPG I experimented with a set of BPR6EIX which you list as a direct replacement to the BPR6ES.
I found the BPR6EIX yielded idle quality improvements and other benefits over the BPR6ES, because of this very positive experience and only after I'd converted the car to run on LPG I decided to try a set of NGK LPG2 plugs. To be honest I found the LPG LaserLine spark plugs very expensive and lots of people running LPG told me not to bother with them, but I took the plunge because years of experience has taught me I can totally trust the NGK brand and their products.
More than two years on and thousands of miles later my LPG2 LaserLines have proved themselves to be extremely durable and excellent performing plugs, recently (as a test) I removed them to see how the car would run on a new set of BPR6ES which in my experience always work well in this engine on petrol (if not quite as well as the BPR6EIX). On LPG with the set of BPR6ES the car had a more ragged idle and seemed to lack a fraction of low down torque as I pulled away from junctions. After a week I removed the BPR6ES and put my LPG2 LaserLines back in and immediately the idle cleared and the normal crisp throttle response was resumed.
These LPG specific LaserLine plugs from NGK are expensive but it's clear to me on gas they are well worth the money, for the majority just burning petrol and using BPR6ES plugs my experience is the cheaper BPR6EIX is sufficient and a worthwhile upgrade. Thanks for taking the time to respond on this post, it's really nice to hear from a professional in the spark plug industry, especially one from what I consider to be the best producer of spark plugs in the world.. NGK.
I will continue to use, recommend and endorse your products but only because in my experience the NGK brand never makes false claims and only produces the very highest quality products. I'm based in Rickmasworth so very close to your offices in Hemel Hempstead, if you ever wanted to use my car to promote the LPG LaserLine range I'd be more than happy to oblige.
It might make an interesting marketing tool as the car is after all a rather unusual candidate for LPG
Thanks, Dave.
Thank you for the positive feedback Dave. It's very interesting what you have said so I just wanted to expand on some of your points.
LPG2 is the correct item for your engine. LPG1 as I said above is basically the same plug but with the the smaller 16mm (5/8") hexagon rather than the older style 20.8mm (13/16") type. This is used on the Rover V8 (P38 fitment) later in vehicle life. The LPG PLugs have a heat range of 5-7 which is why the differ from a BPR6ES.
As you found the plugs can be relatively expensive and this is due them having a sharp Iridium centre electrode (like the BPR6EIX) but they also feature a large Platinum piece on the earth electrode, and the rest of the earth electrode and shell of the plug are plated to prevent the fast wear that occurs when using LPG. This is what gives them the ability to deliver a consistent strong spark in tough conditions. The BPR6EIX has the Iridium centre electrode which works well with Petrol but as they don't have any 'protection' on the earth electrode and shell, this will wear quickly making them seem like a waste of money when LPG is concerned. The sharp Iridium centre electrode is what concentrates the energy on to a smaller point which makes for a stronger spark, which is why I suspect your experiment resulted as such.
Thanks again for the positive words, I will speak with our Marketing department and if they have any future promotions/literature on LPG plugs, then you will be a very good example of how they perform. We haven't had any real feedback as such (hence how I found this thread
) but I knew it was a good product to launch in the UK.Cheers,
Tej
V8 TEJ said:
Apologies for the thread hijack,
Thank you for the positive feedback Dave. It's very interesting what you have said so I just wanted to expand on some of your points.
LPG2 is the correct item for your engine. LPG1 as I said above is basically the same plug but with the the smaller 16mm (5/8") hexagon rather than the older style 20.8mm (13/16") type. This is used on the Rover V8 (P38 fitment) later in vehicle life. The LPG PLugs have a heat range of 5-7 which is why the differ from a BPR6ES.
As you found the plugs can be relatively expensive and this is due them having a sharp Iridium centre electrode (like the BPR6EIX) but they also feature a large Platinum piece on the earth electrode, and the rest of the earth electrode and shell of the plug are plated to prevent the fast wear that occurs when using LPG. This is what gives them the ability to deliver a consistent strong spark in tough conditions. The BPR6EIX has the Iridium centre electrode which works well with Petrol but as they don't have any 'protection' on the earth electrode and shell, this will wear quickly making them seem like a waste of money when LPG is concerned. The sharp Iridium centre electrode is what concentrates the energy on to a smaller point which makes for a stronger spark, which is why I suspect your experiment resulted as such.
Thanks again for the positive words, I will speak with our Marketing department and if they have any future promotions/literature on LPG plugs, then you will be a very good example of how they perform. We haven't had any real feedback as such (hence how I found this thread) but I knew it was a good product to launch in the UK.
Cheers,
Tej
Thanks Tej, two last questions if I may?Thank you for the positive feedback Dave. It's very interesting what you have said so I just wanted to expand on some of your points.
LPG2 is the correct item for your engine. LPG1 as I said above is basically the same plug but with the the smaller 16mm (5/8") hexagon rather than the older style 20.8mm (13/16") type. This is used on the Rover V8 (P38 fitment) later in vehicle life. The LPG PLugs have a heat range of 5-7 which is why the differ from a BPR6ES.
As you found the plugs can be relatively expensive and this is due them having a sharp Iridium centre electrode (like the BPR6EIX) but they also feature a large Platinum piece on the earth electrode, and the rest of the earth electrode and shell of the plug are plated to prevent the fast wear that occurs when using LPG. This is what gives them the ability to deliver a consistent strong spark in tough conditions. The BPR6EIX has the Iridium centre electrode which works well with Petrol but as they don't have any 'protection' on the earth electrode and shell, this will wear quickly making them seem like a waste of money when LPG is concerned. The sharp Iridium centre electrode is what concentrates the energy on to a smaller point which makes for a stronger spark, which is why I suspect your experiment resulted as such.
Thanks again for the positive words, I will speak with our Marketing department and if they have any future promotions/literature on LPG plugs, then you will be a very good example of how they perform. We haven't had any real feedback as such (hence how I found this thread
) but I knew it was a good product to launch in the UK.Cheers,
Tej
It relates to my fellow TVR enthusiasts who almost exclusively run their Chimaeras on petrol.
As previously explained essentially 90% of all TVR Chimaera's use what is in reality just a very mildly breathed on version of the exact same Rover V8 engine used in the p38 Range Rover. NGK specify the yellow box BPR6ES for the P38 Range Rover and these tend to work extremely well in the TVR Chimaera, I also found on petrol the BPR6EIX yielded idle quality improvements and other benefits over the BPR6ES.
But here's the thing, even though compression ratios and most other elements of the Range Rover sourced Rover V8 engine remained unaltered TVR chose to specify a shrouded electrode NGK B7ECS which to me is more of an endurance racing plug than something you might select for a road going car such as the Chimaera with it's low compression and very Range Rover based engine.
This choice of rather cold plug by TVR may be a carry over from the fact that back in the early 90's TVR were using this engine in competition in their own race series know as the Tuscan Challenge, these Tuscan race cars used the same Range Rover sourced Rover V8 but in a much higher state of tune than you will find in their road going Chimaeras, fitted to a race car the engine was also subjected to much harder use so I can see why a NGK B7ECS may have been chosen.
Many Chimaera owners have reported plug fouling from the NGK B7ECS, owners who typically use their Chimaera on the road where they will suffer all that goes with that including idling in traffic and driving in urban situations, a number of these owners have subsequently switched to the hotter BPR6ES specified for the Range Rover and have reported this cured their fouling problems... a few have even switched to BPR6EIX and found further improvements.
My questions to you as an expert and employee of NGK are...
1. Given the road going Chimaera Rover V8 is to all intents an purposes only a very mildly warmed over Range Rover engine, is there any risk in Chimaera owners using NGK BPR6ES plugs?
2. Assuming you feel the BPR6ES is safe can you confirm it is also therefore safe for these owners to upgrade to the BPR6EIX?
This is a topic of hot debate on these pages, some insist you must use the NGK B7ECS because that's what TVR specified, while others suggest the B7ECS which does seem to readily foul on road going Chimaeras can be replaced with the NGK BPR6ES or BPR6EIX with good results in perfect safety.
As a professional in this field and an employee of NGK we would all value your opinion on this subject and your answers to the above two highlighted questions.
Thanks on behalf of us all, Dave.
jojackson4 said:
SILICONEKID345HP said:
Cany just buy ceramic extenders which push together like the Buru ones .
Not seen any Edited by SILICONEKID345HP on Wednesday 14th December 20:44
http://www.bgservice.com/10.html
ChimpOnGas said:
Thanks Tej, two last questions if I may?
It relates to my fellow TVR enthusiasts who almost exclusively run their Chimaeras on petrol.
As previously explained essentially 90% of all TVR Chimaera's use what is in reality just a very mildly breathed on version of the exact same Rover V8 engine used in the p38 Range Rover. NGK specify the yellow box BPR6ES for the P38 Range Rover and these tend to work extremely well in the TVR Chimaera, I also found on petrol the BPR6EIX yielded idle quality improvements and other benefits over the BPR6ES.
But here's the thing, even though compression ratios and most other elements of the Range Rover sourced Rover V8 engine remained unaltered TVR chose to specify a shrouded electrode NGK B7ECS which to me is more of an endurance racing plug than something you might select for a road going car such as the Chimaera with it's low compression and very Range Rover based engine.
This choice of rather cold plug by TVR may be a carry over from the fact that back in the early 90's TVR were using this engine in competition in their own race series know as the Tuscan Challenge, these Tuscan race cars used the same Range Rover sourced Rover V8 but in a much higher state of tune than you will find in their road going Chimaeras, fitted to a race car the engine was also subjected to much harder use so I can see why a NGK B7ECS may have been chosen.
Many Chimaera owners have reported plug fouling from the NGK B7ECS, owners who typically use their Chimaera on the road where they will suffer all that goes with that including idling in traffic and driving in urban situations, a number of these owners have subsequently switched to the hotter BPR6ES specified for the Range Rover and have reported this cured their fouling problems... a few have even switched to BPR6EIX and found further improvements.
My questions to you as an expert and employee of NGK are...
1. Given the road going Chimaera Rover V8 is to all intents an purposes only a very mildly warmed over Range Rover engine, is there any risk in Chimaera owners using NGK BPR6ES plugs?
2. Assuming you feel the BPR6ES is safe can you confirm it is also therefore safe for these owners to upgrade to the BPR6EIX?
This is a topic of hot debate on these pages, some insist you must use the NGK B7ECS because that's what TVR specified, while others suggest the B7ECS which does seem to readily foul on road going Chimaeras can be replaced with the NGK BPR6ES or BPR6EIX with good results in perfect safety.
As a professional in this field and an employee of NGK we would all value your opinion on this subject and your answers to the above two highlighted questions.
Thanks on behalf of us all, Dave.
Hello Dave,It relates to my fellow TVR enthusiasts who almost exclusively run their Chimaeras on petrol.
As previously explained essentially 90% of all TVR Chimaera's use what is in reality just a very mildly breathed on version of the exact same Rover V8 engine used in the p38 Range Rover. NGK specify the yellow box BPR6ES for the P38 Range Rover and these tend to work extremely well in the TVR Chimaera, I also found on petrol the BPR6EIX yielded idle quality improvements and other benefits over the BPR6ES.
But here's the thing, even though compression ratios and most other elements of the Range Rover sourced Rover V8 engine remained unaltered TVR chose to specify a shrouded electrode NGK B7ECS which to me is more of an endurance racing plug than something you might select for a road going car such as the Chimaera with it's low compression and very Range Rover based engine.
This choice of rather cold plug by TVR may be a carry over from the fact that back in the early 90's TVR were using this engine in competition in their own race series know as the Tuscan Challenge, these Tuscan race cars used the same Range Rover sourced Rover V8 but in a much higher state of tune than you will find in their road going Chimaeras, fitted to a race car the engine was also subjected to much harder use so I can see why a NGK B7ECS may have been chosen.
Many Chimaera owners have reported plug fouling from the NGK B7ECS, owners who typically use their Chimaera on the road where they will suffer all that goes with that including idling in traffic and driving in urban situations, a number of these owners have subsequently switched to the hotter BPR6ES specified for the Range Rover and have reported this cured their fouling problems... a few have even switched to BPR6EIX and found further improvements.
My questions to you as an expert and employee of NGK are...
1. Given the road going Chimaera Rover V8 is to all intents an purposes only a very mildly warmed over Range Rover engine, is there any risk in Chimaera owners using NGK BPR6ES plugs?
2. Assuming you feel the BPR6ES is safe can you confirm it is also therefore safe for these owners to upgrade to the BPR6EIX?
This is a topic of hot debate on these pages, some insist you must use the NGK B7ECS because that's what TVR specified, while others suggest the B7ECS which does seem to readily foul on road going Chimaeras can be replaced with the NGK BPR6ES or BPR6EIX with good results in perfect safety.
As a professional in this field and an employee of NGK we would all value your opinion on this subject and your answers to the above two highlighted questions.
Thanks on behalf of us all, Dave.
Apologies for the delay. You are on the right path in what you have worked out regarding the B7ECS originating from various projects that TVR were working on at the time. I'm not sure if the Tuscan race cars used the B7ECS or not, as I would have thought they would be using an 8 in this sort of application. Our data has to always list the 'correct' item for all vehicles especially when we are/were the O.E. supplier. It is of course the item specified by TVR and it will remain in the data for this reason.
The differing of heat ranges is a complex subject and It still happens today, with Jaguar being an example with their current 5.0 V8 engine. During testing and development they settled with a 7 heat range plug from us. This was later changed to a 6 heat range (about 2 years after launching the engine to the public) due to the 7 being carbon fouled. This situation also occurs when a manufacturer is developing and engine on a bench, which may be used quite hard for various durability tests, but the same engine rarely is under the same stress once an owner is cruising around town with their roof down on a summers day. However an owner who has a lightly tweaked XKR may find the 7 perfect for them. Jaguar will stock both plugs (as do we) but the listings in our data will only show what the current engine manufacturer specified item is. Mazda had the same issue with their rotary engine in the RX8 (amongst other problems!) which they addressed in their own way.
So basically, as you and other owners have found, the 7 heat range can be too cold for some owners and changing this to a 6 cures the problems they encounter. I suspect the owners who prefer the 7 possibly use their cars harder than others or maybe see occasional track use. The Rover V8 does of course exist in many states of tune and there are no shortage of modified cars out there. The state of tune and use the car gets will determine the heat rating for that particular owner. This will be evident by the fact that some owners can use the 7 with no fouling problems at all, which would indicate that a 6 would overheat in these situations. We also get a lot of calls from owners of Japanese imported cars (Skylines/Supras etc.) asking for a plug recommendation. In most cases the owners do not know if the car is modified or not so we suggest for them to remove a plug from the car and work from there. For us to suggest a 'standard' plug in these situations would be incorrect.
Another aspect to consider is the projection of the TVR plug. The O.E. B7ECS is less projected as it results in a shorter, stronger earth electrode design. BR6ES/BR6EIX are actually closer to this spec if a 6 heat range is preferred. We do not know why TVR chose the less projected plug. It could be due to the stronger earth electrode design, or due to the fuel delivery/gas flow on the TVR engines differing from other Rover V8s, requiring a less projected plug to protect the ceramic around the centre electrode from thermal shock. This is something that we do not know for certain, so for this reason I would suggest BR6ES/BR6EIX if you find that the 6 heat range works better in your particular situation. I haven't checked, but the P38 Range Rover is probably rated at a lower power output than a Chimaera? If so, this would explain the reason a 6 is listed for these.
I hope this answers your questions.
Best regards,
Tej
I see TVR Parts have added ceramic plug leads to their collection, £117.50. Plug leads are supposed to be removable in order to replace the plugs, seller is liable if they lock onto the plugs, I hope the £117 covers the replacement cost of damaged ceramic caps 
http://www.tvr-parts.com/tvr-parts/part-details/tv...
http://www.tvr-parts.com/tvr-parts/part-details/tv...
V8 TEJ said:
Hello Dave,
Apologies for the delay. You are on the right path in what you have worked out regarding the B7ECS originating from various projects that TVR were working on at the time. I'm not sure if the Tuscan race cars used the B7ECS or not, as I would have thought they would be using an 8 in this sort of application. Our data has to always list the 'correct' item for all vehicles especially when we are/were the O.E. supplier. It is of course the item specified by TVR and it will remain in the data for this reason.
The differing of heat ranges is a complex subject and It still happens today, with Jaguar being an example with their current 5.0 V8 engine. During testing and development they settled with a 7 heat range plug from us. This was later changed to a 6 heat range (about 2 years after launching the engine to the public) due to the 7 being carbon fouled. This situation also occurs when a manufacturer is developing and engine on a bench, which may be used quite hard for various durability tests, but the same engine rarely is under the same stress once an owner is cruising around town with their roof down on a summers day. However an owner who has a lightly tweaked XKR may find the 7 perfect for them. Jaguar will stock both plugs (as do we) but the listings in our data will only show what the current engine manufacturer specified item is. Mazda had the same issue with their rotary engine in the RX8 (amongst other problems!) which they addressed in their own way.
So basically, as you and other owners have found, the 7 heat range can be too cold for some owners and changing this to a 6 cures the problems they encounter. I suspect the owners who prefer the 7 possibly use their cars harder than others or maybe see occasional track use. The Rover V8 does of course exist in many states of tune and there are no shortage of modified cars out there. The state of tune and use the car gets will determine the heat rating for that particular owner. This will be evident by the fact that some owners can use the 7 with no fouling problems at all, which would indicate that a 6 would overheat in these situations. We also get a lot of calls from owners of Japanese imported cars (Skylines/Supras etc.) asking for a plug recommendation. In most cases the owners do not know if the car is modified or not so we suggest for them to remove a plug from the car and work from there. For us to suggest a 'standard' plug in these situations would be incorrect.
Another aspect to consider is the projection of the TVR plug. The O.E. B7ECS is less projected as it results in a shorter, stronger earth electrode design. BR6ES/BR6EIX are actually closer to this spec if a 6 heat range is preferred. We do not know why TVR chose the less projected plug. It could be due to the stronger earth electrode design, or due to the fuel delivery/gas flow on the TVR engines differing from other Rover V8s, requiring a less projected plug to protect the ceramic around the centre electrode from thermal shock. This is something that we do not know for certain, so for this reason I would suggest BR6ES/BR6EIX if you find that the 6 heat range works better in your particular situation. I haven't checked, but the P38 Range Rover is probably rated at a lower power output than a Chimaera? If so, this would explain the reason a 6 is listed for these.
I hope this answers your questions.
Best regards,
Tej
Thanks for your very comprehensive and informative answers Tej, I assume because you haven't highlighted any risks associated with using BR6ES or BR6EIX in a Chimaera you consider them perfectly safe in a road going TVRs fitted with the Rover V8?Apologies for the delay. You are on the right path in what you have worked out regarding the B7ECS originating from various projects that TVR were working on at the time. I'm not sure if the Tuscan race cars used the B7ECS or not, as I would have thought they would be using an 8 in this sort of application. Our data has to always list the 'correct' item for all vehicles especially when we are/were the O.E. supplier. It is of course the item specified by TVR and it will remain in the data for this reason.
The differing of heat ranges is a complex subject and It still happens today, with Jaguar being an example with their current 5.0 V8 engine. During testing and development they settled with a 7 heat range plug from us. This was later changed to a 6 heat range (about 2 years after launching the engine to the public) due to the 7 being carbon fouled. This situation also occurs when a manufacturer is developing and engine on a bench, which may be used quite hard for various durability tests, but the same engine rarely is under the same stress once an owner is cruising around town with their roof down on a summers day. However an owner who has a lightly tweaked XKR may find the 7 perfect for them. Jaguar will stock both plugs (as do we) but the listings in our data will only show what the current engine manufacturer specified item is. Mazda had the same issue with their rotary engine in the RX8 (amongst other problems!) which they addressed in their own way.
So basically, as you and other owners have found, the 7 heat range can be too cold for some owners and changing this to a 6 cures the problems they encounter. I suspect the owners who prefer the 7 possibly use their cars harder than others or maybe see occasional track use. The Rover V8 does of course exist in many states of tune and there are no shortage of modified cars out there. The state of tune and use the car gets will determine the heat rating for that particular owner. This will be evident by the fact that some owners can use the 7 with no fouling problems at all, which would indicate that a 6 would overheat in these situations. We also get a lot of calls from owners of Japanese imported cars (Skylines/Supras etc.) asking for a plug recommendation. In most cases the owners do not know if the car is modified or not so we suggest for them to remove a plug from the car and work from there. For us to suggest a 'standard' plug in these situations would be incorrect.
Another aspect to consider is the projection of the TVR plug. The O.E. B7ECS is less projected as it results in a shorter, stronger earth electrode design. BR6ES/BR6EIX are actually closer to this spec if a 6 heat range is preferred. We do not know why TVR chose the less projected plug. It could be due to the stronger earth electrode design, or due to the fuel delivery/gas flow on the TVR engines differing from other Rover V8s, requiring a less projected plug to protect the ceramic around the centre electrode from thermal shock. This is something that we do not know for certain, so for this reason I would suggest BR6ES/BR6EIX if you find that the 6 heat range works better in your particular situation. I haven't checked, but the P38 Range Rover is probably rated at a lower power output than a Chimaera? If so, this would explain the reason a 6 is listed for these.
I hope this answers your questions.
Best regards,
Tej
To summarise we should assume all the there options are safe (B7ECS, BR6ES or BR6EIX) in the Rove V8, so final selection should be dictated by personal driving style, state of engine tune and ultimately what proves to work best in each Chimaera.
Finally its important to stress TVR famously overestimated their power outputs, and even TVR owners themselves who'd love to claim the big power bragging rights accept TVRs claimed power figures were largely a work of fiction to help sales.
Thanks again Tej, your input and expertise in this matter has been very helpful.
Dave.
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