Central Locking Issues - Fekin Pish Poor TVR Wiring Again!

[ChimpOnGas]

Penelope Stopit said:

Good find, your winning
I like you have no idea why the white with a purple unlock wire is connecting somewhere with the white with a purple door switches wires, apart from them being the same colour they should not be linked together and I wonder if a mistake has been made at some time and they have been joined together yet the joint didn't work but now does (only a thought)

From my investigations the white wire with a purple trace seems to present itself in five places on the car:

• Door switches x 2

• At pin 3 on the CL relay

• At the small white plug on the Meta alarm unit

• At the large white plug on the Meta alarm unit

I think you'll find this is TVR factory wiring, I'm not sure which of the plugs in in and out but I think it's fair to assume +v goes into the alarm unit then comes out to trigger pin 3 on the CL relay... but only when you press the key/alarm fob.

Penelope Stopit said:

There is a possibility that the wires are shorting together somewhere rather than joined together (door looms?)
I take it you are getting the 7.9 volts reading when the alarm/CLS is disconnected (if not disconnect and test)

I have now tested the white wire with a purple trace at:

• Both door switches x 2

• At pin 3 on the CL relay

• At the small white plug on the Meta alarm unit

• At the large white plug on the Meta alarm unit

In each and every location I am getting the same 7.9v reading

Penelope Stopit said:

If I was you I would be looking at the interior light circuit, the 7.9 volts could possibly be coming from the nterior light or interior light delay unit/relay Disconnect the interior light, perhaps the delay unit is built into the interior light and if it isn't you will need to find the delay unit/relay, whatever, disconnect interior lights and delays and test.

I thought the same, so I pulled the interior light delay relay from the fuse board and it made absolutely no difference.

Penelope Stopit said:

There is a very good chance that the 7.9 Volts at the door switches is correct, on a standard interior light circuit with no delay 12 Volt will be present at the door switches until they are earthed, If the 7.9 Volts at the door switches is correct, the fault is as you have found....there is a short or connection between door switches and the CLS white/purple wire

I have no idea if 7.9v is correct but I seriously doubt it, saying that I'm not claiming to be an expert on the Meta system and the way TVR wired it so I'm happy to be corrected. With the whole car being 12v and the Meta system being designed for a 12v vehicle why would this one and only wire show 7.9v not the 12.7v I see with everything else electrical on the car (or any other 12v car for that matter?).

What I can tell you is there's another permanent live wire at the alarm unit (black with white trace) that resides on the smaller of the two white plugs and right next to the 7.9v white wire with a purple trace, this black with white trace wire shows a healthy 12.7v as you would expect.



Now, here's a theory I'd be happy to have your opinion on

1. I'd assume the alarm unit has a small internal relay to perform this unlock function when it sees the IR signal from the key/alarm fob

2. Now lets assume the contacts on this little relay buried inside the alarm unit have fused themselves together

3. After years of operation the contacts have become pitted so also have a high resistance

4. With the contacts fused together that pulse unlock circuit is now incorrectly passing current on a permanent basis (white wire with a purple trace)

5. But its only allowing 7.9v across these contacts, the missing 4.8v being consumed by the resistance across the fused together contacts and covered to heat

What do you think?

Thanks again for trying to help me figure it all out

Dave.

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Saturday 15th April 17:02

[Penelope Stopit]

ChimpOnGas said:

I have no idea if 7.9v is correct but I seriously doubt it, saying that I'm not claiming to be an expert on the Meta system and the way TVR wired it so I'm happy to be corrected. With the whole car being 12v and the Meta system being designed for a 12v vehicle why would this one and only wire show 7.9v not the 12.7v I see with everything else electrical on the car (or any other 12v car for that matter?).

OK as you stand to be corrected
Yes most cars use 12 Volt and many switching circuits switch a pos or neg 12 Volt.
Many different voltages can be read at the switched side (not supply side be it + or -) of any circuit and these voltages vary depending on what component is at the other end of the wire that the supply + or - is being switched to
You will find that many modern cars use a 5 volt supply that is switched to a higher voltage or a lower voltage

You are measuring 7.9 Volts at a wire that switches a negative to it and that wire as far as I can gather is for switching the interior light circuit, due to the wire switching the interior light circuit you could very easily be measuring the voltage that is coming down the wire from a interior light delay unit/relay or another component and the unit is dropping the voltage

To find a fault of this nature there is only one way of going about it, all components in the circuit must be disconnected one at a time and not reconnected until it is proven what is supplying the 7.9 Volts. As I have already mentioned the 7.9 Volts could well be correct
Connect your meter to the white and purple CLS wire and start disconnecting all components related to 1st the interior light, alarm and CLS one at a time and don't connect anything back up until you have found what is supplying the 7.9 Volts

If having disconnected all components mentioned above and any other related ones and there is still 7.9 Volts at the white and purple CLS wire then there is a short circuit or incorrectly wired circuit somewhere

When giving advice to any person about faults of this nature I always first state that they must disconnect all components before delving deeper otherwise carrying out correct testing is not possible

If you are 100% sure that the CLS unlock wire is white and purple there is no way that this wire should be common to a door switched wire of the same colour unless????????

Is it possible that TVR have wired your car so that the central locking wont unlock with the interior light on / Doors open?

Going by what you have posted and I have copy/pasted at the bottom here

3. With both door switches disconnected the car both locks and unlocks perfectly

Surely this means that if you have known good door switches that are functioning correctly, your central locking will work correctly when the doors are in the fully closed position and the fully closed position is the position they would need to be in when wanting to unlock them

• *********In Summary

1. With the door switches connected the car will lock but refuses to unlock

2. With the door switches connected the only way to unlock the car is manually press the unlock contacts

3. With both door switches disconnected the car both locks and unlocks perfectly

4. The white wire with purple trace at each door switch only carries 7.9v

5. The white wire with purple trace at pin 3 on the CL relay also only carries 7.9v*********

[Steve_D]

Quick thought.
When you are trying the lock/unlock have you got the doors closed? My thought being doors closed should give the same result as disconnecting both door switches.
Having spent some time working in the open doorways of many a Chim I know that brushing against the switch causes the locking to chatter rather annoyingly.

Steve

[Discopotatoes]

id say don't plug those door switches back in lol

[Ribol]

N7GTX said:

Well, well well. Mr superior can dole it out but doesn't like it coming back. No surprise there then. After your offensive comments in the NGK spark plug thread - yes you were offensive when you called me "comically ignorant" - but I chose not to respond. However, it seems you are unable to keep your mouth shut and so you come back with more vitriol - "ignorant ill educated people" - in answer to Ribol's comments which are perfectly lucid and accurate. It is you whose ignorance vastly exceeds your intellect.

Perhaps you were looking in the mirror when you wrote this little gem? "However superior you arrogantly feel your knowledge is" perfectly sums you up. As for your demand of Ribol to not respond to your posts, it seems perfectly clear to me that your self-importance is off the scale. Clearly you are unable to grasp the concept of a 'forum' - "a meeting or medium where ideas and views(my emphasis) on a particular issue can be exchanged" - and this 'forum' is called Pistonheads, not an outlet for Chim Pong Ass's personal diatribes.

I thought the same - someone has obviously been telling him he can water all his life and he eventually started believing it.

But life goes on, I will try and come to terms with the hurtful comments thrown at me, it won't be an easy journey but maybe in years to come I will hopefully get over them

[Ribol]

ChimpOnGas said:

You're a rude man Ribol, I've witnessed you being rude to others too so it's clearly a character trait, and not a very nice one at that.

Clearly you know as much about being a life coach as you do car electrics.

[ChimpOnGas]

Moving on...

Steve_D said:

Quick thought.
When you are trying the lock/unlock have you got the doors closed? My thought being doors closed should give the same result as disconnecting both door switches.
Having spent some time working in the open doorways of many a Chim I know that brushing against the switch causes the locking to chatter rather annoyingly.

Steve

Hi Steve, can I ask a daft question?

"In your experience how many volts (if any) should I see permanently at my door switches when I put my meter between the two wires?"

Now for something I wasn't expecting!!!!

With both door switches disconnected and happy at least I can lock & unlock the car, I decided to go for a drive, the first thing I noticed when I started the car was the engine was racing at 2,000rpm

This was very odd as my Canems system is well mapped and has closed loop idle, TBH it never has this raised RPM problem but it was in cold start so I continued the drive until 85 degrees was showing on my laptop.

Weirdly the car felt smoother but with the engine fully warmed its was still idling at 2,000rpm, so I turned down the base idle and tweaked the PWM idle settings on the laptop and brought the idle back down to a 1050rpm idle where I like it.

Boy did she idle smooth, I mean super smooth and with the most stable AFRs I have ever seen by a good margin too, now I run 13.3:1 because it seemed to be what the engine wanted, but with this new found super smooth idle I thought I'd try the 14's to see if she'd take it. Normally anything leaner than 13.3:3 and the engine would start to hunt a little & running 14's was a no no but I now found I could dial in mid 14's and the idle remained beautifully sweet.

Happy with that I went for a drive, oh my God I naturally find I'm changing up at 1,300rpm as I pootle through town and I'm in fifth before I know it looking at a speedo reading of 30mph!!!

So I drive some more, this time leaving town I notice much crisper throttle response to go with the new found forgiveness at lower speed, as the road opens up I floor it in 3rd taking it to 5k.... then repeat in 4th.

I now have a big grin on my face, this mixed with a feeling of shock as the engine feels way way crisper and far more willing to rev. Back to town & calming it down the wonderful low speed drivability improvements remain and I return home to ponder the effects my wiring issues must have been having on my idle valve, injector openings and ignition system.

The differences were very pronounced indeed, basically improvements were noticeable in every way the car drives, I've now got no interior light when I open the door but I'm inclined to say "who cares"!

I get how voltages and poor earths can effect engine management systems but I never expected an improvement as big as this, to say I'm over the moon would be the understatement of the year

[SILICONEKID345HP]

Why not upgrade the immobilizer and get rid of the alarm and have a remote fob fittede.

[ChimpOnGas]

SILICONEKID345HP said:

Why not upgrade the immobilizer and get rid of the alarm and have a remote fob fittede.

I'll happen Daz, eventually it will happen mate

[Steve_D]

ChimpOnGas said:

.....In your experience how many volts (if any) should I see permanently at my door switches when I put my meter between the two wires?"..........

I've not had reason to measure it.
Being as the voltage will be coming from a combination of alarm, interior light relay or central locking relay there is no reason why it should be battery voltage and could have been a quite common switching signal of 5v
You could try unplugging two of the three and testing the voltage at the remaining unit then plug/unplug to test the next unit etc.

Steve

[ChimpOnGas]

Steve_D said:

ChimpOnGas said:

.....In your experience how many volts (if any) should I see permanently at my door switches when I put my meter between the two wires?"..........

I've not had reason to measure it.
Being as the voltage will be coming from a combination of alarm, interior light relay or central locking relay there is no reason why it should be battery voltage and could have been a quite common switching signal of 5v
You could try unplugging two of the three and testing the voltage at the remaining unit then plug/unplug to test the next unit etc.

Steve

Thanks again for all your support Steve.

The voltage is 7.9v everywhere I find the white wire with a purple trace, this was tested with the doors shut and the white alarm plugs both plugged in and disconnected, the only way to kill the 7.9v was to completely disconnect both door switches at which point the door lock & unlock worked perfectly so it was clearly a switch issue all along. I really just need to understand if 7.9v is normal, if someone could check the voltage at their door switches I'd be grateful, if only to eliminate a question mark in my mind.

What I can say with 100% certainty is by simply disconnecting both door switches the lock and unlock function suddenly works perfectly, in fact the solenoids have never sounded so healthy snapping from lock to unlock in a very positive way, reconnect just one of the two door switches (passenger or drivers switch) and with the doors shut the fault immediately returns so at the very least both switches must be faulty. Obviously the door switches are just simple make & break devices, with the passenger switch disconnected and the drivers side connected (but hanging off the car) I was able to operate the switch by hand through it's full stroke ensuring the contacts were genuinely open & closed, visually the switch itself seemed to work fine but the fault remained even if I pushed the button right to the end of it's travel?

As you say the door switch behavior is such that with the door open you've only got to brush them with the very lightest touch and you hear the door solenoid chatter, I fitted new switches from TVR Parts a few years ago and they were like this from new. At the time I significantly extended the door buttons that act on the switches to make completely sure the switches were fully pushed in (which they most definitely were) but I simply couldn't stop my passenger door solenoid chattering, so in frustration one day I ended up simply disconnecting that switch.

I'll do a continuity test on the switches and see what I find, but for now I'm so impressed with the idle, drivability and throttle response improvements I'm inclined just to leave the dreadful things disconnected, clearly the alarm/central locking unit has been consuming enough current to significantly impact engine behavior in a negative way. The most noticeable change is my idle air control valve is now working as it should, the first start with the switches disconnected had the idle racing to 2,000rpm until I changed the settings in my Canems software. This makes sense now as for months now the idle valve has been been getting more and more unresponsive to any changes I made, clearly the PWM idle valve is one of the most sensitive components to any voltage/current anomalies in the car's wiring loom.

Obviously disconnecting the door switches isn't a permanent fix, but given the significant improvements in the way the car drives and the only downside I can think of is that my interior light doesn't come on when I open the door, this is the way it's going to stay (for a while at least). If I need light in the car I can simply flick the switch on the courtesy light itself as it still works manually without the door switches connected which is hardly a massive inconvenience in exchange for such significant engine behavior improvements.

Thanks to everyone who contributed in a possessive way to this post

Dave.

[Steve_D]

Unplug the w/p wire from the C/L relay and see if your interior light switches with the doors.
If you can, do the same with the alarm disconnected.

If they work then the switches and that wiring must be OK.

If the interior light stays on then the fault is in the switches or wiring to them.

Steve

Edited by Steve_D on Monday 17th April 12:32

[ChimpOnGas]

Extracting the wiring at the drivers door solenoid reveals this lovey collection of crimp connectors....



Obviously this is someone's solution to recycling one half of the original connector when they replaced the door solenoid, this was long before I took ownership of the car some 8 years ago.

I'm wondering if they got the wiring right as there are now essentially three wire colour changes, the male half of the connector has different coloured wires to the female half which I believe is 'TVR normal'...



But the generic replacement solenoid came with different coloured wires again, it's just a thought... but did they connect these wires correctly when they fitted the new generic solenoid

Whatever the fault is, it's clearly causing a current draw and or voltage drop because with both door switches disconnected the car drives noticeably better. Low speed drivability is improved, the idle air control valve now works as it should and the engine feels way stronger especially over 3,000rpm like the coil packs are now getting more power.

I know Offord TVR charged the previous owner over £200 for reconditioning the Meta alarm system as I still have the bill, I subsequently discovered this works actually involved chopping out the siren and taking the fuses out of the alarm module, I guess this was their genius solution to infuriating false alarm activation. If this was the standard of their work and Offord also replaced the drivers door solenoid I have to question if they connected the wires correctly?

Here's those suspicious crimps again....



It's just a theory

[Brithunter]

Seeing as how you now suspect the quality of the work done by so called "professionals" if it was me then I would either have it done correctly by someone you trust or rewire it myself.


You know it makes sense!

Edited by Brithunter on Tuesday 18th April 10:33

[ChimpOnGas]

Brithunter said:

Seeing as how you now suspect the quality of teh work done by so called "professionals" if it was me then I would either have it done correctly by someone you trust or rewire it myself.


You know it makes sense!

Obviously in a ideal world it does make perfect sense, but we don't live in a ideal world and I thought the forum was about people sharing information and ideas with the objective of fixing things yourself?

Clearly there are no prizes for stating the blindingly obvious, since all this started I was never in any doubt the easiest and most effective solution would just be to get my cheque book out and have a professional take a look at it. However, all I'm doing here is discussing an issue with my car like hundreds of others do every year, many of whom often find a quick cost effective solution without resorting to paying a professional, thus proving the sharing of knowledge through a forum format can be a useful tool, actually this is really the foundation function of such technical forum platforms.

As I've been clear to say on a number of occasions it may well come to getting David from HF Solutions in to go through the wiring, but as there will be a considerable cost involved I thought I'd start this post to see if I (with the help of others) could find a solution before I resort to calling David. Now lets just say the only issue relates to Offord TVR connecting a couple of wires incorrectly when they fitted the generic solenoid and someone reading this spots the fault from my photos, that would take me two minutes to fix and be a nice free solution.

I'm not arguing against getting a TVR experienced auto electrician to look at the car, but like pretty much everyone posting problems on these pages I'm just discussing the fault with others first to see if I can find a solution before I do just that. The fact is for the time being I've effectively solved the problem for absolutely nothing... and all I've lost is my interior light coming on when I open the door. So I could argue getting David at HF in to fix it properly would be a very costly way of getting the interior light to function as it should, as it stands the interior light itself actually still works perfectly, it's just I now need to turn it on with my finger (hardly a big deal!).

But you're completely right of course, the proper way to fix it would be to employ the services of David at HF who conveniently is just up the road from me, unfortunately it's insurance time in a few weeks so my TVR war chest is already earmarked for that, I conclude insurance is way more important that having my interior light come on when I open the door.... so for the time being at least those door switches will remain disconnected.

Back on topic, can anyone advise me on the solenoid wiring and how to check if Offord got it right (or wrong) when they fitted the replacement generic solenoid?

Thanks, Dave.

[Loubaruch]

I have just noticed this post.

Did you unplug the courtesy light relay before making measurements? These are known to fail frequently.

[Steve_D]

I've just tested an interior light relay and get about 1 volt lower than battery volts on the (white/purple) pin.

As I said previously you need to take the 3 sources of power coming to the white/purple wires and disconnect them all. Then make sure you have no volts on your switches and no short to earth.
Then reconnect one source and test what volts it puts onto W/P. Disconnect and do same for each of the others. Finally reconnect them all and again see what you get.

Your solenoids are on a different part of the circuit so unlikely to be an issue. Also if they were incorrectly wired at the door they would lock when they were supposed to unlock so you would know there was an issue.

Steve

[Ribol]

For the benefit of anyone reading through this thread in the future, a couple of things to keep in mind.

For the central locking to be fully functional both door switches need to be working properly.

Depending on where the solenoids are manufactured it is very common for the wires coming out of them to be different colours, it is very easy to identify which does what so not an issue for installers.

[ChimpOnGas]

Steve_D said:

I've just tested an interior light relay and get about 1 volt lower than battery volts on the (white/purple) pin.

As I said previously you need to take the 3 sources of power coming to the white/purple wires and disconnect them all. Then make sure you have no volts on your switches and no short to earth.
Then reconnect one source and test what volts it puts onto W/P. Disconnect and do same for each of the others. Finally reconnect them all and again see what you get.

Your solenoids are on a different part of the circuit so unlikely to be an issue. Also if they were incorrectly wired at the door they would lock when they were supposed to unlock so you would know there was an issue.

Steve

Thanks for checking that Steve, so my 7.9v is very wrong then being almost 5 volts below battery voltage, I'm not surprised my car now runs so much better since removing what looks to have been a significant drain.

As it stands with the door switches disconnected I'm enjoying a host of very noticeable engine behavior and drivability benefits, best of all it's cost me absolutely nothing. Given the only thing I've lost is the interior light coming on when I open the door and the light still works if I switch it on manually, I'm inclined to leave it as is for now and just get on with enjoying the car.

It's MoT and insurance time plus I could really do with some new diff bushes, a new pinion seal, and a Helicoil job on a pulled thread on the diff... so that lot will suck up the funds I'm prepared to invest in the car this year, as such for the time being I think I'll live with manually turning on my interior light. Next year with the TVR war chest replenished I'll get David at HF to give the electrics a complete health check and get the interior light working correctly, it'll definitely be money well spent but for now there are other priorities.

Thanks all, Dave.

[Brithunter]

ChimpOnGas said:

Obviously in a ideal world it does make perfect sense, but we don't live in a ideal world and I thought the forum was about people sharing information and ideas with the objective of fixing things yourself?

Clearly there are no prizes for stating the blindingly obvious, since all this started I was never in any doubt the easiest and most effective solution would just be to get my cheque book out and have a professional take a look at it. However, all I'm doing here is discussing an issue with my car like hundreds of others do every year, many of whom often find a quick cost effective solution without resorting to paying a professional, thus proving the sharing of knowledge through a forum format can be a useful tool, actually this is really the foundation function of such technical forum platforms.

As I've been clear to say on a number of occasions it may well come to getting David from HF Solutions in to go through the wiring, but as there will be a considerable cost involved I thought I'd start this post to see if I (with the help of others) could find a solution before I resort to calling David. Now lets just say the only issue relates to Offord TVR connecting a couple of wires incorrectly when they fitted the generic solenoid and someone reading this spots the fault from my photos, that would take me two minutes to fix and be a nice free solution.

I'm not arguing against getting a TVR experienced auto electrician to look at the car, but like pretty much everyone posting problems on these pages I'm just discussing the fault with others first to see if I can find a solution before I do just that. The fact is for the time being I've effectively solved the problem for absolutely nothing... and all I've lost is my interior light coming on when I open the door. So I could argue getting David at HF in to fix it properly would be a very costly way of getting the interior light to function as it should, as it stands the interior light itself actually still works perfectly, it's just I now need to turn it on with my finger (hardly a big deal!).

But you're completely right of course, the proper way to fix it would be to employ the services of David at HF who conveniently is just up the road from me, unfortunately it's insurance time in a few weeks so my TVR war chest is already earmarked for that, I conclude insurance is way more important that having my interior light come on when I open the door.... so for the time being at least those door switches will remain disconnected.

Back on topic, can anyone advise me on the solenoid wiring and how to check if Offord got it right (or wrong) when they fitted the replacement generic solenoid?

Thanks, Dave.

Sorry Dave but I was under the impression that you were fairly handy with the tools. I am no auto electrician but if pushed to it could probably wire it up. At one time would have just got stuck in but now I seem to doubt myself.

Am about to try something new for me a plastic bumper repair! ...................... it's got a big spit/tear in it. Ideally a replacement would be the ticket but there is no money for anything like that so am having to try and fix it. have been waiitng for the warmer weather to help the repair stuff cure.

Meanwhile hope you get the locking sorted.