Chimeara won't start.

[Penelope Stoppedit]

blitzracing said:

Two steps backward......

We have no power on the coil
We have power and relays working on the ECU
We have no pump.

This is really odd as the supply to the coil is not the same as the power to the pump, and the inertia switch only kills the fuel pump, not the coil. So do we have more than one fault-?

If you can get a meter probe into one the Lambda connector plugs on the front of the chassis- the red wire from the loom, and ground, you should see 12v as you cycle up the ignition for a few seconds, as this is the same supply as the fuel pump. If its missing here as well, its not the inertial switch at fault, but likely a faulty fuel pump relay. Quite a common fault- but also check the fuses in the 14CUX loom

As for the coil- well you could jump a feed wire from the 12v connection on the back of the alternator to the coil positive and crank the engine and see if you get a spark. this would at least prove the ignition is working, just missing its ignition feed. Make sure you get the coil +ve, or you will melt the ignition amp.

Of course we are assuming a bodger has not been at you TVR and modified the loom to bypass a fault by saying strapping the fuel pump supply and coil 12 volts together, and now we have a single point of failure, not two.

In you situation id ask for some local help if someone has RoverGauge or ECUmate- you can turn the fuel pump on permanently with these tools, that makes fault finding a whole lot easier than trying to grab the 3 second pulse for the pump on ignition on.

Edited by blitzracing on Sunday 15th October 19:35

Hello blitzracing, I hope you don't take offence about my following comments regarding your above post.
I am worried that tvrash could burn his cars wiring harness out if he was to follow your above instructions
Please please please don't get uptight about the following, this is nothing personal, I have observed something that could turn pear shaped on tvrash

OK I'll get to the nitty gritty now that we all understand that this is only for the best and may save the world losing another TVR

tvrash, don't under any circumstances start using lengths of cable to connect the alternator battery positive to anything

blitzracinghas above commented that you could run a power supply from the alternator to the ignition coil positive to see if the engine will run.

Under no circumstances should you be running a wire from the battery to the coil positive.

blitzracing seems to have forgotten to mention that the coil positive wires would need to be disconnected from the coil and also that an in-line fuse would need to be wired into the wire you were jumping with

If you were to connect a positive from the alternator to the coil without taking my above mentioned precautions, should there be a short to negative or any other wire on the cars coil positive wire the cars wiring harness could very easily go up in a puff of smoke

I best add, if you were to safely apply a 12 volt positive to the coil and the engine did run, this method does not find the fault but could possibly cause other faults

You must be very careful if using jump wires on circuits that have an unknown fault, if the unknown fault is related to shorts on or inside the wiring harness much damage can be done

blitzracing As I have already mentioned above, please please please don't take offence due to me pointing out that your above post could lead to tvrash burning his cars wiring harness out

Have a good evening blitzracing and tvrash

Edited by Penelope Stoppedit on Sunday 15th October 22:41

[Steve_D]

Some things you can test.
Follow this +12v supply.
Fuse 12 is an ignition switched supply.
From there it goes through the immobiliser.
At a connector in the passenger footwell it will be a white wire on one side of the connector and white/green on the other side.
White/green goes to 3 places.
• ECU pin 19
• Fuel pump relay coil.
• Ignition coil.
So with ignition on and immobiliser unset test for +12v at those 3 places.

Steve

[Penelope Stoppedit]

Steve_D said:

Some things you can test.
Follow this +12v supply.
Fuse 12 is an ignition switched supply.
From there it goes through the immobiliser.
At a connector in the passenger footwell it will be a white wire on one side of the connector and white/green on the other side.
White/green goes to 3 places.
• ECU pin 19
• Fuel pump relay coil.
• Ignition coil.
So with ignition on and immobiliser unset test for +12v at those 3 places.

Steve

This is of much help and does tie in with this diagram that I posted you earlier yesterday

[blitzracing]

Penelope Stoppedit said:

Hello blitzracing, I hope you don't take offence about my following comments regarding your above post.
I am worried that tvrash could burn his cars wiring harness out if he was to follow your above instructions
Please please please don't get uptight about the following, this is nothing personal, I have observed something that could turn pear shaped on tvrash

OK I'll get to the nitty gritty now that we all understand that this is only for the best and may save the world losing another TVR

tvrash, don't under any circumstances start using lengths of cable to connect the alternator battery positive to anything

blitzracinghas above commented that you could run a power supply from the alternator to the ignition coil positive to see if the engine will run.

Under no circumstances should you be running a wire from the battery to the coil positive.

blitzracing seems to have forgotten to mention that the coil positive wires would need to be disconnected from the coil and also that an in-line fuse would need to be wired into the wire you were jumping with

If you were to connect a positive from the alternator to the coil without taking my above mentioned precautions, should there be a short to negative or any other wire on the cars coil positive wire the cars wiring harness could very easily go up in a puff of smoke

I best add, if you were to safely apply a 12 volt positive to the coil and the engine did run, this method does not find the fault but could possibly cause other faults

You must be very careful if using jump wires on circuits that have an unknown fault, if the unknown fault is related to shorts on or inside the wiring harness much damage can be done

blitzracing As I have already mentioned above, please please please don't take offence due to me pointing out that your above post could lead to tvrash burning his cars wiring harness out

Have a good evening blitzracing and tvrash

Edited by Penelope Stoppedit on Sunday 15th October 22:41

Caution noted - but think about it logically--

Whats on the coil positive normally- that will be 12 volts- so putting 12 volts on it from another source is not going to cause a fire. To do this the 12 volt feed to the coil would have to have to be shorted to ground and this would have blown a fuse or shorted out the loom already and the damage done, and we have NO evidence for this. Its far more likely something is open circuit due to the fact 12v is missing. Worse case scenario would be the 12 volts feeds back up the loom and effectively by passes the ignition switch so everything bursts into life, but seems unlikely as the 12v is missing in the first place. But fair enough pop a 10 amp fuse inline with the 12 volt supply to be on the 100% safe side as the coil draws around 7 amps.

There is logic behind this particular method- we seem to have two faults- and by putting 12 v on the coil we should be able to eliminate one, and more importantly provide the pulsed feed back to the ECU to trigger the fuel pump. If you disconnect the positive connections from the coil as suggested , you also disconnect the ignition amp supply, so its never going to run as you have no coil trigger signal although I hope It may just be a fuse dropped out of the 14CUX loom that's killed the pump.

I would not recommend anyone does something to their car I would not do myself.This is based on first hand experience of the 14CUX and ignition.

Edited by blitzracing on Monday 16th October 14:06

[tvrash]

Steve_D said:

Some things you can test.
Follow this +12v supply.
Fuse 12 is an ignition switched supply.
From there it goes through the immobiliser.
At a connector in the passenger footwell it will be a white wire on one side of the connector and white/green on the other side.
White/green goes to 3 places.
• ECU pin 19
• Fuel pump relay coil.
• Ignition coil.
So with ignition on and immobiliser unset test for +12v at those 3 places.

Steve

Hi Steve, I'm trying to methodically work through this.
Voltage at pin 19 with ignition on was 0.03, so residual voltage only ? Does that on its own tell you anything ?

[blitzracing]

That does not make sense- if you did not have 12v on pin 19 (ignition feed to ECU) he ECU would not initialise and the fuel pump relay would not have clicked? What are you using as ground?

[tvrash]

blitzracing said:

That does not make sense- if you did not have 12v on pin 19 (ignition feed to ECU) he ECU would not initialise and the fuel pump relay would not have clicked? What are you using as ground?

The battery. Yes it's weird. I'm going to do it again in a bit.

[Penelope Stoppedit]

blitzracing said:

Caution noted - but think about it logically--

Whats on the coil positive normally- that will be 12 volts- so putting 12 volts on it from another source is not going to cause a fire. To do this the 12 volt feed to the coil would have to have to be shorted to ground and this would have blown a fuse or shorted out the loom already and the damage done, and we have NO evidence for this. Its far more likely something is open circuit due to the fact 12v is missing. Worse case scenario would be the 12 volts feeds back up the loom and effectively by passes the ignition switch so everything bursts into life, but seems unlikely as the 12v is missing in the first place. But fair enough pop a 10 amp fuse inline with the 12 volt supply to be on the 100% safe side as the coil draws around 7 amps.

There is logic behind this particular method- we seem to have two faults- and by putting 12 v on the coil we should be able to eliminate one, and more importantly provide the pulsed feed back to the ECU to trigger the fuel pump. If you disconnect the positive connections from the coil as suggested , you also disconnect the ignition amp supply, so its never going to run as you have no coil trigger signal although I hope It may just be a fuse dropped out of the 14CUX loom that's killed the pump.

I would not recommend anyone does something to their car I would not do myself.This is based on first hand experience of the 14CUX and ignition.

Edited by blitzracing on Monday 16th October 14:06

I am very happy that you were not offended by me pointing out the above
In a failed circuit what's on the other end of a wire should never be taken for granted
I don't think I have ever posted my qualifications, nature of work and completed projects etc here, have I ?

Have a pleasant afternoon blitzracing

tvrash, I hope you find the culprit soon.
When using your Multimeter to measure a positive or negative voltage, always check that the lead you have connected to the battery positive or negative is a good connection, do this by connecting the other Multimeter lead to the other battery terminal and check that you are seeing an approximate voltage of 12. At intervals during carrying out your tests go back to the battery and re-check your Multimeter connection at the battery is still good. Note that a Low Voltage can often be measured by connecting 1 Multimeter lead to a battery terminal and holding the other Multimeter leads probe onto the top of the battery case, Voltage is present through moisture, grime and corrosion etc. Don't be fooled by false readings

[tvrash]

blitzracing said:

That does not make sense- if you did not have 12v on pin 19 (ignition feed to ECU) he ECU would not initialise and the fuel pump relay would not have clicked? What are you using as ground?

Sorry, idiot moment. I am getting 12v at pin 19 with ignition on.
Does this help at all ?

[Penelope Stoppedit]

tvrash said:

Sorry, idiot moment. I am getting 12v at pin 19 with ignition on.
Does this help at all ?

Hello tvrash, you now need to verify that the same 12 volts ignition supply is at the white/green wire that connects to the fuel pump relay, once you have verified all is well with white/green to ECU and fuel pump relay, you now know that the engine should run once the coil has power.
Is the wire at the coil positive terminal white/green or black?
You are half way there in finding this problem, it is now a case of tracing the white and green from the coil to the interior wiring harness
Please do post up the colour of the coil positive wire
I dont think any of us have asked what engine is in your car

Someone could have wired in a seperate immobiliser switch to the coil supply or another add-on immobiliser that you dont have a remote for and is sat there doing nothing (but perhaps gone faulty)

Edited by Penelope Stoppedit on Monday 16th October 17:21

[tvrash]

Penelope Stoppedit said:

Hello tvrash, you now need to verify that the same 12 volts ignition supply is at the white/green wire that connects to the fuel pump relay, once you have verified all is well with white/green to ECU and fuel pump relay, you now know that the engine should run once the coil has power.
Is the wire at the coil positive terminal white/green or black?
You are half way there in finding this problem, it is now a case of tracing the white and green from the coil to the interior wiring harness
Please do post up the colour of the coil positive wire
I dont think any of us have asked what engine is in your car

Someone could have wired in a seperate immobiliser switch to the coil supply or another add-on immobiliser that you dont have a remote for and is sat there doing nothing (but perhaps gone faulty)

Edited by Penelope Stoppedit on Monday 16th October 17:21

Thanks. I will check the relay terminal in the morning. The coil positive wire is black from memory, will also check tomorrow.
No other immobiliser that I can see, I have the dash top off and just the standard immobiliser.

[Penelope Stoppedit]

hello tvrash

Used ****** For Very Likely

I have edited the following image a little so it doesn't confuse you
Where I have added text mentioning your wire is black, look at the wiring at the ignition amplifier on your cars distributor and see if that wire is also black and linking to the coil positive just like in the diagram below
If your ignition systems wiring matches to this diagram, I think that there is a possibility that wherever the **** Land Rover**** engine wiring harness connects to the TVR interior harness (by that I mean the white wire in the diagram below which is black in your harness) there could be a burnt connector. If there isn't a burnt connector at the engine to interior harness plug/plugs, you will need to follow the loom and see where the black coil wire terminates to

Due to the fact that your vehicle was playing up a little before the total loss of the coils ignition supply I suspect a loose or burnt connection
Please do post back if the diagram matches your engine ignition system
You have yet to post what engine is in your car????

Edited by Penelope Stoppedit on Monday 16th October 18:37

[tvrash]

Oh sorry I forgot last time, it's a 4.0L

[Penelope Stoppedit]

In my above post with diagram I have possibly jumped the gun in assuming that you have checked through the immobiliser circuit that you now have access to
There is a good possibility that TVR have wired the immobiliser into your Coils power supply

[Frostiechim]

Hi tvrash,

Not being funny, but have you checked the continuity from the ignition barrel to the immobiliser (if that's what TVR has done) and then ignition barrel to the coil with a multimeter?

Frostie

[tvrash]

Frostiechim said:

Hi tvrash,

Not being funny, but have you checked the continuity from the ignition barrel to the immobiliser (if that's what TVR has done) and then ignition barrel to the coil with a multimeter?

Frostie

Hi Frostie,

My problem is I don't know the route the wiring takes so unless I know that it could throw up false results. Wiring on these seems to take quite a convoluted route from A to B. Any tips are welcome.

[Steve_D]

Steve_D said:

Some things you can test.
Follow this +12v supply.
Fuse 12 is an ignition switched supply.
From there it goes through the immobiliser.
At a connector in the passenger footwell it will be a white wire on one side of the connector and white/green on the other side.
White/green goes to 3 places.
• ECU pin 19
• Fuel pump relay coil.
• Ignition coil.
So with ignition on and immobiliser unset test for +12v at those 3 places.

Steve

Good you have proven that the fuse (12) is good, Immobiliser is good, and +12V is getting to the ECU.
Next is the fuel pump relay white/green wire.

Then the coil which should be a white wire. I have however seen many different colour wires arrive at the coil positive due to earlier modifications/repairs. I think these mods/repairs were due to the original wires having been hardened by the engine heat and failed.
This could also be your problem with a fractured wire somewhere in the loom.

Steve

[v8s4me]

Have you checked the fuel pump is OK and hasn't failed? Just run a separate live and earth to make sure it spins up. Another simple thing to check before moving on to the more complex stuff.

As mentioned above, you seem to have two separate problems so it's good practice to solve one before moving onto the other.

[Belle427]

The b post connector shown above in the fuel pump diagram can be a source of corrosion issues too, its in the same compartment as the passenger side door locking module behind the carpet.

[Penelope Stoppedit]

[quote=Penelope Stoppedit]hello tvrash

Used ****** For Very Likely

I have edited the following image a little so it doesn't confuse you
Where I have added text mentioning your wire is black, look at the wiring at the ignition amplifier on your cars distributor and see if that wire is also black and linking to the coil positive just like in the diagram below
If your ignition systems wiring matches to this diagram, I think that there is a possibility that wherever the **** Land Rover**** engine wiring harness connects to the TVR interior harness (by that I mean the white wire in the diagram below which is black in your harness) there could be a burnt connector. If there isn't a burnt connector at the engine to interior harness plug/plugs, you will need to follow the loom and see where the black coil wire terminates to

Due to the fact that your vehicle was playing up a little before the total loss of the coils ignition supply I suspect a loose or burnt connection
Please do post back if the diagram matches your engine ignition system
You have yet to post what engine is in your car????



Good Morning tvrash
Further to my posting of the above diagram, should you not find that the fault is at the immobiliser or one of the interior harness plugs that you have access to, you could do with one of the Chimaera owners here at PH posting you some information regarding the routing of the engine harness to the interior harness and also them pointing out the location of the harness plugs
I am hoping that you find the fault is at the immobiliser or one of the plugs close by rather than having to struggle through the wiring harnesses

Due to you not posting any images of your engine/coil/distributor layout I can only go by information found here at PH
None of us know if your vehicle has been modified in any way
Out of interest, does your vehicle have this amplifer fitted to the distributor?


Or this layout with the amplifier mounted away from the distributor?


Or is there some other layout with no amplifier?

Perhaps it would be a good idea to post a few images up so that all is revealed