comparison track day

[QBee]

Not easy to compare.....

Mine had an a Emerald ECU and a turbo installed at the same time as I needed a new engine.
So while I know the total cost of all three was less than £10,000, most people with, say, a 4 litre Chim could create a turbo car, using their existing engine, running on the 14CUX for less than £4,000, drive in drive out.

Emerald fitted adds £2,500, my engine was about £2,500 fitted, but that is cheap because I bought the bits cheaply and had a stock Range Rover 4.6 built. I decided to go safe and make the engine a low compression known quantity......you can easily buy a used 4.0 or 4.6 RR engine cheaper, but you risk there being existing issues with it.

If I had decided to go well over 400 bhp, a whole can of additional worms creaks open, to reveal stronger transmission, stronger gearbox, upgraded clutch, forged engine internals, etc etc.

Next......

Edited by QBee on Sunday 29th April 18:43

[trev4]

My engine upgrades came to £3000 which includes a remap with Joolz which resulted in a 4lt with 280hp.
I made brake and handling improvements before I touched the engine, its not much use having lots of hp if the car won't stop or go round corners properly.

[QBee]

trev4 said:

My engine upgrades came to £3000 which includes a remap with Joolz which resulted in a 4lt with 280hp.
I made brake and handling improvements before I touched the engine, its not much use having lots of hp if the car won't stop or go round corners properly.

Likewise - I had already installed bigger brakes, adjustable dampers and track tyres

[BIG DUNC]

phazed said:

Now there’s a question!

Judging the cars that were there at Snetterton it probably goes in this order.


Wedge 350
Tuned Chimaera 400/standard Chimaera 500
Turbo 4.6 Chimaera
Tuned 5.5 NA Chimaera

Trevors tuned 400 goes extremely well and from memory the power output is about the same as the standard 500 so can’t be dismissed as the little one!

Edited to say, I can't remember how Kevs went!

Edited by phazed on Sunday 29th April 11:58

Interesting. Is that fastest, or most fun, or ....

How does that compare to how much money has been spent on them (on the engine, not the whole car).?

[BIG DUNC]

phazed said:

Now there’s a question!

Judging the cars that were there at Snetterton it probably goes in this order.


Wedge 350
Tuned Chimaera 400/standard Chimaera 500
Turbo 4.6 Chimaera
Tuned 5.5 NA Chimaera

Trevors tuned 400 goes extremely well and from memory the power output is about the same as the standard 500 so can’t be dismissed as the little one!

Edited to say, I can't remember how Kevs went!

Edited by phazed on Sunday 29th April 11:58

Interesting. Is that fastest, or most fun, or ....

How does that compare to how much money has been spent on them (on the engine, not the whole car).?

[BIG DUNC]

phazed said:

Now there’s a question!

Judging the cars that were there at Snetterton it probably goes in this order.


Wedge 350
Tuned Chimaera 400/standard Chimaera 500
Turbo 4.6 Chimaera
Tuned 5.5 NA Chimaera

Trevors tuned 400 goes extremely well and from memory the power output is about the same as the standard 500 so can’t be dismissed as the little one!

Edited to say, I can't remember how Kevs went!

Edited by phazed on Sunday 29th April 11:58

Interesting. Is that fastest, or most fun, or ....

How does that compare to how much money has been spent on them (on the engine, not the whole car).?

[CanoeSniffer]

trev4 said:

My engine upgrades came to £3000 which includes a remap with Joolz which resulted in a 4lt with 280hp.
I made brake and handling improvements before I touched the engine, its not much use having lots of hp if the car won't stop or go round corners properly.

what engine upgrades does yours have Trev? 280hp is very strong for a 4 litre.

There may still be spaces available for Castle Combe with Classic Tracks on Tuesday if that interests anyone on this thread, 25% discount for TVRs.

[BIG DUNC]

CanoeSniffer said:

what engine upgrades does yours have Trev? 280hp is very strong for a 4 litre.

There may still be spaces available for Castle Combe with Classic Tracks on Tuesday if that interests anyone on this thread, 25% discount for TVRs.

Hmmm

Not possible to compare absolutely as everyone has different starting positions.

I would be interested to know how to make my 4.0 do 280 HP..£3k strikes me as good value for money if starting from a completely standard engine.

[phazed]

Mine is the fastest I suppose but for good reason.

Biggest capacity, built with all good parts that hardly cost anything
Self built engine kept NA.
Lots of mods to suspension and brakes.

The whole package gives an excellent handling and powerful car.

Goes very fast and handles as well as a chim can.

Very happy with the result.

[trev4]

V8 Developments supplied the parts.
Worrior stage three big valve heads(new spec)
45mm inlet manifold.
45mm shortened trumpet base
72mm plenum
Act smooth bore air intake
Mc1 cam
K&N air filter
Mat Smith Sports Cars put it all together and Joolz re mapped the car, both Joolz and mat were surprised buy the results.
If you are good with the spanners you would save just under a third of the cost.
Hope that helps.

Edited by trev4 on Monday 30th April 06:54

[phazed]

If you really want to know........cost is about £27.00

5.5 RV8 home built
Top hated large journal block.
Cross bolted
Special stroker crank,
Cat 6" steel H beam forge rods
ARP head bolts
Forged Diamond pistons
Total Seal gapless rings
H404 camshaft plus hydraulic lifters
Cam retarded by 4 degrees
Yella Terra roller rockers
JE billet outrigger posts
ACT Triple plenum and 45mm trumpet base
Plenum opened out to 95mm inlet
!00mm induction hose
100mm K&N Hiflow filter
Stage 4 ported heads
10.5 :1 Comp
Ported and polished inlet manifold
30lb Accell Injectors
JE alternator bracket
P38 coil pack
Accel 8mm leads
McLeod 10.5" twin plate clutch (rated to 800 horses)
Forged lightweight alloy flywheel
Aaron alloy radiator
ACT big bore manifolds
ACT full set black silicon hoses
34 row Oil cooler with therostatic sandwich plate take off
Fully decatted
Gaz Mono Dampers with Eibach 450/400 Springs
5 stud conversion
RL7 wheels, 17" all round with R1Rs for road, black.
RL7 wheels 17" & 18" with R888s for track, black.
Braided hoses
Tuscan big brake conversion with DS2500 pads
Thicker 25mm & 22mm ARBs fitted
Mondeo estate rear rose joint drop links
Leven front drop links
Superflex Polyurethane bushes all round
TR Lane roll bar
Converted to electric/hydraulic PS pump
Converted to Subaru PS rack .
Series 2 Elise seats beautifully upholstered by Zigga
4 point harness fitted
Additional vents to front valance
Carbon fibre splitter to front
MK3 faired in headlight conversion
Varley Red Top gel battery fitted above fuel tank.
Recently fitted servo and electric vacuum pump to assist the heavy competition clutch. Now featherlight
400BHP, 430Torque.
Now fitted with an Emerald ECU with 3 switchable maps.
Full power,
Full power plus pops and bangs on overrun,
Eco, (that's a laugh) cruising map.

[CanoeSniffer]

trev4 said:

V8 Developments supplied the parts.
Worrier stage three big valve heads(new spec)
45mm inlet manifold.
45mm shortened trumpet base
72mm plenum
Act smooth bore air intake
Mc1 cam
Mat Smith Sports Cars put it all together and Joolz re mapped the car, both Joolz and mat were surprised buy the results.
If you are good with the spanners you would save just under a third of the cost.
Hope that helps.

Cheers Trev, or maybe not as that pretty much confirms my fears- that my own upgrade path is limited to only cam and heads without an expensive return to FI (which to be honest I'm not keen on doing as there just isn't enough potential in the baby 4 to justify it). Capacity upgrade has been ruled out due to having the small journal crank/non-crossbolted 3.9 engine architecture. Means that there's maybe 30hp to be found in my car without replacing the block. Starting to get itchy feet about my Chim, its not slow.. But it's just not fast enough any more. And I'm loathe to invest any money in it for a max gain of some 30 odd horses.. That'll last all of 6 months before I'm bored again..

Seriously wondering if I should just break the bank to scratch that Cerb itch and get a £500 stter to take on track instead. Either that or a built later style block RV8 from somewhere.

[QBee]

CanoeSniffer said:

Cheers Trev, or maybe not as that pretty much confirms my fears- that my own upgrade path is limited to only cam and heads without an expensive return to FI (which to be honest I'm not keen on doing as there just isn't enough potential in the baby 4 to justify it). Capacity upgrade has been ruled out due to having the small journal crank/non-crossbolted 3.9 engine architecture. Means that there's maybe 30hp to be found in my car without replacing the block. Starting to get itchy feet about my Chim, its not slow.. But it's just not fast enough any more. And I'm loathe to invest any money in it for a max gain of some 30 odd horses.. That'll last all of 6 months before I'm bored again..

Seriously wondering if I should just break the bank to scratch that Cerb itch and get a £500 stter to take on track instead. Either that or a built later style block RV8 from somewhere.

Points well made, kayak-kid. I always advise never to spend more than £500 on any mod that gives you less than an extra 50 bhp, because you will very soon wonder why you bothered. The honest truth is that the standard cars, regardless of engine size, are all already fast for the money, and the gains for extra spend precisely follow the law of diminishing returns.
I honestly thought I would create a really strikingly fast car when I spent all that money 18 months ago on the mods listed above, getting me to around 400 bhp. I am an idiot.....I was already nearly as fast as Phazed on track with 315 bhp before the mods, and as his car is 400 bhp, I was only ever going to create a car with similar performance to his. I never planned to create a 550 bhp monster, because I never budgeted for a forged this and a racing that, and at that power level the problems then become how to get the power down on the track. And my LS3 plans were shot down by the £20,000+ price tag.
The problems we all suffer from are the limitations of trying to scratch any speed itch on the UK's public roads, the good performance and adaptability of many modern relatively cheap daily drivers, and the relative cost of running a TVR as a track car when compared with many of the cheaper alternatives.
If you want more fun on a race track, have a long hard look at Caterhams or possibly Lotuses. The handling is in another league. Having been around Snetterton last week in the left hand seat of that little blue 210 bhp pocket rocket, I can honestly say that it was only as quick as my car at the end of the straights, but the cornering was just in a different league. If you watched the video Nick posted, I can honestly tell you he was driving gently with his dear Dad on board. His steering wheel action with me on board was far more dramatic, as were the cornering G forces.
So think long and hard before you scratch the Cerbera itch, think about for what you will actually use the car.....if your need is for speed but you don't intend to track the Cerbera, or take it shopping, I suspect it might spend 99.9% of its time behind an up-and-over door.

[Classic Chim]

At last someone who says it how it is. Expensive business this trackday larking about especially if you want a very fast car that won’t get over taken,,,, very easily.
If I was to do this I’d go for a 4.0 With a big Cam and plenty of air so good heads,,, a cheap 4.0 and concentrate on handling, just hit the corners harder, you’ll still be slower but hold the moral high ground

It’s about having fun or going real fast,,, or both.
As John mentions there’s always someone around your speed limit so you don’t need to do what Peters done. But if you do then you will be one of the fastest,,,if that matters to you. These cars arrive on trailers, everything’s different from blokes rocking up with 1/2 worn road pads and T1R

Peters a long time track day abuser over many years so these mods are logical and what he aims to achieve, similar to Anthony.
Like bike racing though,,, the 500’s might be where the prises are but the 250’s are more fun so an old Tvr or even an S car might actually make the best fun trackcar as you can really show up on corner speed. You only need decent tyres and shocks for that.
The simple truth is trackdays are very competitive and it’s only with good experience do you remove yourself from trains of cars as your not meant to overtake properly so it’s all a waste of time. Only higher powered cars can overtake anything.

There’s nothing better than dicing with a mate though, I had a great time with Matt Poxon one time and we were probably 3 seconds a lap slower than say Peter but we laughed and pushed each other along, I had respect as he does, we trusted each other to be reasonable. It also helped that at that time my car was almost as fast as his so the even matching made it really interesting. I fear he’s moved the goal posts a bit since but that’s ok it’s what we do.
It’s about being realistic with what you’ve got,,,
My problem is I like my car the way it is which won’t be much good on a race track as I’ve softened the car up considerably.
Horses for courses.
As I have enough experience to know getting blown off by a faster mate on a race track with a faster car shouldn’t bother me but fk me it does
I am joking as I’m not bothered about speed much anymore.
Power,,, now that’s different
Anyway Macs going to make me a rockstar so I’ll be back,,2025 !! , you lot better keep modding
Right off to work

[phazed]

All good stuff as stated by Anthony and Alun.

I have had great fun with an Octavia vRS on track, it was practically standard but a hoot within its capabilities.

You don't have to spend much to have a good time on track but to be really quick, you will!

I have enjoyed developing mine over a number of years. It is my hobby and the way I look at it is that it is great fun on track as well as a lot of the mods making the car better on the road, (stops and handles better).

I suggest anyone who wants to go down this route take a long hard look at what you want to achieve and then realistically budget for the big spend!

As for cerbs, they're not that fast! In fact Joolz stated that my old RV8 produces more power than them and in a lighter body.

[Classic Chim]

I’ve softened my car but the more I think about it the faster it will be around a tight circuits simply because I have better tyres and I’m more confident in what it will do. Circulating at a high overall speed is much faster than point and squirt so around the same track I did a couple of years ago with the addition of Brembo brakes I reckon I’d be loads faster because of the tyres and the consistently higher grip and obvious braking advantage.

It might be a good idea to leave the car alone and buy-proper slicks and be done with it

[spitfire4v8]

QBee said:

I always advise never to spend more than £500 on any mod that gives you less than an extra 50 bhp, because you will very soon wonder why you bothered.

If everyone took that advice you've just killed 99 percent of the RV8 tuning market.

[spitfire4v8]

Classic Chim said:

I’ve softened my car but the more I think about it the faster it will be around a tight circuits simply because I have better tyres and I’m more confident in what it will do. Circulating at a high overall speed is much faster than point and squirt so around the same track I did a couple of years ago with the addition of Brembo brakes I reckon I’d be loads faster because of the tyres and the consistently higher grip and obvious braking advantage.

It might be a good idea to leave the car alone and buy-proper slicks and be done with it

I would imagine that as a biker you already have good balance / smooth inputs so you're probably already smooth and quick around a track. Grip is everything though for most tracks .. you need a LOT of power to rein in a car that's just taken 5 lengths out of you in the twisties !!

[QBee]

spitfire4v8 said:

QBee said:

I always advise never to spend more than £500 on any mod that gives you less than an extra 50 bhp, because you will very soon wonder why you bothered.

If everyone took that advice you've just killed 99 percent of the RV8 tuning market.

Ever felt that nobody ever listens?

Ok, I should perhaps have said £1,000, but the point is there.

I am just trying to get people to think about what they are trying to achieve so that they don't end up wondering why they end up with a car that is barely any faster, and any slight speed gain is down to their wallet weighing substantially less.

To my mind there are so many mods out there that might give you an extra 10-20 bhp.....but that is not a good enough reason to do them.
Because you will barely feel the difference. You need a 50 bhp gain to feel the impact.

I am as guilty as the next man of adding the under bonnet equivalent of go-faster stripes.

[QBee]

spitfire4v8 said:

Classic Chim said:

I’ve softened my car but the more I think about it the faster it will be around a tight circuits simply because I have better tyres and I’m more confident in what it will do. Circulating at a high overall speed is much faster than point and squirt so around the same track I did a couple of years ago with the addition of Brembo brakes I reckon I’d be loads faster because of the tyres and the consistently higher grip and obvious braking advantage.

It might be a good idea to leave the car alone and buy-proper slicks and be done with it

I would imagine that as a biker you already have good balance / smooth inputs so you're probably already smooth and quick around a track. Grip is everything though for most tracks .. you need a LOT of power to rein in a car that's just taken 5 lengths out of you in the twisties !!

Next time you make it to a track day, Al, borrow my used slicks. They definitely add 5-10 mph around Coram. Picking up another set of last year's used Clio Cup slicks this evening.