Chimaera Prices
Discussion
Tyre Smoke said:
. The Chimaera may well be considered a modern classic, but there are not quite as many as Minors, but still a significant number that it falls between two stools - not new enough to attract someone looking for say, a Boxster and not classic enough (because it still looks very modern) for someone after perhaps a MGA/B and certainly not in the same league as a big Healey.
That is bound to change over time as the generation of folks who remember what an MGA or big Healey was, used to have the most buying power but now are getting into an age where their bodies don't necessarily agree with getting into and out of that sort of car, and where people are re-evaluating their assets anyway as they fear those they leave behind at some point, will treat them as liabilities rather than assets. Heck, I'm over 50 and regard the trad British sports car of the 1960s as being 'well before my time'!I think the 'problem' is twofold:
The current generation of people in their late twenties to mid-fifties as a whole being far less financially secure than the boomers, leading to a steady stream of cars getting on the market as mortgage, family stuff etc. takes precedence and they can not justify hanging on to a toy that only gets used for a few hundred to a few thousand miles annually
Chimaeras (and Griffiths) being at that stage where lots of scruffy cars with rusty chassis are still hanging on by the skin of their teeth rather than being scrapped or restored to former glory
Give it time...this always happens to cars. Look at Porsche prices 10-15 years ago, even some BMW's. I remember well when E30's were at the stage our TVR'S generally are now. I nearly bought an EVO3 e30 m3 for 22k, which was a lot 12 years ago...look at them now, nearly 6 figures for the type if looked at.
Kit car like?...Yeah, but so are all cars in reality and fibre glass hasn't held back the likes of the Elan from achieving good money these days.
But if I'm to be honest, I dont think about or even want my car to be an investment....all that stuff just drives down the love of simply driving them!
Kit car like?...Yeah, but so are all cars in reality and fibre glass hasn't held back the likes of the Elan from achieving good money these days.
But if I'm to be honest, I dont think about or even want my car to be an investment....all that stuff just drives down the love of simply driving them!
If I ever sell the ad would go something like this....
Iconic British marque, hand built in England, two door two seat convertible in Highland Pearl with black leather interior.
Front engine rear wheel drive with 5 speed manual gearbox and limited slip differential.
Uprated engine, suspension and brakes, aftermarket ECU, optimised electrical systems
5 litre V8 built and extensively breathed on by well known engine builders V8 developments.
360bhp and 354lb/ft - 0-60 under 4 seconds and top speed 170-180mph.
Stunning and in mint condition, yours for just.... £???? (insert best guess here)
(pic below...)
Iconic British marque, hand built in England, two door two seat convertible in Highland Pearl with black leather interior.
Front engine rear wheel drive with 5 speed manual gearbox and limited slip differential.
Uprated engine, suspension and brakes, aftermarket ECU, optimised electrical systems
5 litre V8 built and extensively breathed on by well known engine builders V8 developments.
360bhp and 354lb/ft - 0-60 under 4 seconds and top speed 170-180mph.
Stunning and in mint condition, yours for just.... £???? (insert best guess here)
(pic below...)
Mention above of people not being able to fix minor problems so shy away from TVR, yet Lotus (also basically a kit car, more so than TVR which were at least built in factory) and Hillman Imp, never get minor problems that need fettling?
And re E30 prices, I bought an E30 M3 Cecotto for £10k around the year 1999 and sold it to buy my first TVR two years later. For £8k.
However I note on the open market there are now a number of Merc 500SL (R129 shape) which are sticking, around the £5k to £7k mark, so maybe it's engine size, not the marque per se that is the reason?
And re E30 prices, I bought an E30 M3 Cecotto for £10k around the year 1999 and sold it to buy my first TVR two years later. For £8k.
However I note on the open market there are now a number of Merc 500SL (R129 shape) which are sticking, around the £5k to £7k mark, so maybe it's engine size, not the marque per se that is the reason?
the problem isnt the car (tvr, lotus or any other sportscars brand)...the problem is the owners:
type1: has just money to pay for a car on the lower side of the price range and his fingers are all thumbs
type2: as type 1, but not all fingers are all thumbs, he has some skills, but no proper workshop with appropriate tools etc.
type3: has money, unable to spanner, is buying a car in mid to upper price range, has a lcoal wokshop which he trusts, but never able to check if this workshop has the "real" skills to cope with a TVR...owner spents endless money, because he thinks: its a part of the deal owning a TVR
type4: same as type 3, but he is bringing the car only to skilled TVR specialist
type 5: has money to pay for a car in the lower to medium range, has still some money left, is a car-maniac, also in terms of spannering, has proper skills and tools.
type1-3 is the most common out there....and this will destroy the reliability of the TVR (imagine some chim´s are nearly 30y old now)...those people will destroy the reliability of any car on longterm...even from a rover p6 or a truimph 2500 saloon....
type 4 and 5 are the ones the car is profiting from.
type1: has just money to pay for a car on the lower side of the price range and his fingers are all thumbs
type2: as type 1, but not all fingers are all thumbs, he has some skills, but no proper workshop with appropriate tools etc.
type3: has money, unable to spanner, is buying a car in mid to upper price range, has a lcoal wokshop which he trusts, but never able to check if this workshop has the "real" skills to cope with a TVR...owner spents endless money, because he thinks: its a part of the deal owning a TVR
type4: same as type 3, but he is bringing the car only to skilled TVR specialist
type 5: has money to pay for a car in the lower to medium range, has still some money left, is a car-maniac, also in terms of spannering, has proper skills and tools.
type1-3 is the most common out there....and this will destroy the reliability of the TVR (imagine some chim´s are nearly 30y old now)...those people will destroy the reliability of any car on longterm...even from a rover p6 or a truimph 2500 saloon....
type 4 and 5 are the ones the car is profiting from.
LLantrisant said:
the problem isnt the car (tvr, lotus or any other sportscars brand)...the problem is the owners:
type1: has just money to pay for a car on the lower side of the price range and his fingers are all thumbs
type2: as type 1, but not all fingers are all thumbs, he has some skills, but no proper workshop with appropriate tools etc.
type3: has money, unable to spanner, is buying a car in mid to upper price range, has a lcoal wokshop which he trusts, but never able to check if this workshop has the "real" skills to cope with a TVR...owner spents endless money, because he thinks: its a part of the deal owning a TVR
type4: same as type 3, but he is bringing the car only to skilled TVR specialist
type 5: has money to pay for a car in the lower to medium range, has still some money left, is a car-maniac, also in terms of spannering, has proper skills and tools.
type1-3 is the most common out there....and this will destroy the reliability of the TVR (imagine some chim´s are nearly 30y old now)...those people will destroy the reliability of any car on longterm...even from a rover p6 or a truimph 2500 saloon....
type 4 and 5 are the ones the car is profiting from.
I have just identified myself as a type 5 TVR owner......type1: has just money to pay for a car on the lower side of the price range and his fingers are all thumbs
type2: as type 1, but not all fingers are all thumbs, he has some skills, but no proper workshop with appropriate tools etc.
type3: has money, unable to spanner, is buying a car in mid to upper price range, has a lcoal wokshop which he trusts, but never able to check if this workshop has the "real" skills to cope with a TVR...owner spents endless money, because he thinks: its a part of the deal owning a TVR
type4: same as type 3, but he is bringing the car only to skilled TVR specialist
type 5: has money to pay for a car in the lower to medium range, has still some money left, is a car-maniac, also in terms of spannering, has proper skills and tools.
type1-3 is the most common out there....and this will destroy the reliability of the TVR (imagine some chim´s are nearly 30y old now)...those people will destroy the reliability of any car on longterm...even from a rover p6 or a truimph 2500 saloon....
type 4 and 5 are the ones the car is profiting from.
Lotus has always had the reliability image problems. The newer models are still arguably parts bin w
es, but still have a better finish to them.
Both my TVRs are clearly a built up kit car made in a shed in Blackpool. Glue on the edges of trim, trim coming loose, velcro, door/boot solenoids not working....
Anyone who says a Chimaera is 'specialist' is a bit of an egotist. It's a Rover V8, nothing complicated and tractor technology, the wiring loom is largely Land Rover with a smattering of Ford and GM switches lights, etc. They are perhaps the last of the 'mechanical' TVRs as opposed to the Cerbera/Tamora/Tuscan that started to ha.ve a lot of 'trick' electrics. Any competent mechanic can fix a Chimaera.
es, but still have a better finish to them. Both my TVRs are clearly a built up kit car made in a shed in Blackpool. Glue on the edges of trim, trim coming loose, velcro, door/boot solenoids not working....
Anyone who says a Chimaera is 'specialist' is a bit of an egotist. It's a Rover V8, nothing complicated and tractor technology, the wiring loom is largely Land Rover with a smattering of Ford and GM switches lights, etc. They are perhaps the last of the 'mechanical' TVRs as opposed to the Cerbera/Tamora/Tuscan that started to ha.ve a lot of 'trick' electrics. Any competent mechanic can fix a Chimaera.
TJC46 said:
I have just identified myself as a type 5 TVR owner......
The problem with being a type 5 person (Like myself) is that when it comes to sell these cars, type 1-3 will want to see a FSH. Where as I service, fettle and do 95% of the work myself. Every now and then when I'm passing I'll put it into a well known garage to get some of the worst jobs done/alignment. What I'm about to say is a bit abstract so bare with me. I see the Chim/Griff as a comparable to the Disco/Defender. As the Defenders shot up in price there was about a 3 year lag before the Discovery 1/2 started to creep up in price (for a good condition). I think the same will happen with the Chims (different league mind). And where I see the Chimaera's value - it's no hard to fix than our tractor or my V8 90 just less space.
" but never able to check if this workshop has the "real" skills to cope with a TVR...owner spends endless money, because he thinks: its a part of the deal owning a TVR"
This is absolutely true in my experience. Too many times I've seen TVR 'specialists' taking the easy route & charging full whack whenever trouble occurs because they know they have a get out of jail card handed to them next time something goes awry: "Yeah, that's TVRs for you..."
How f***ing short sighted. A dozen years after the last cars left Bristol Avenue I can safely say it's this utter lack of professionalism that keeps the brand image and values low and causes owners to bail out at some point (and possibly bad mouthing the TVR experience for years/decades after). In 2018 you really cannot blame the factory anymore. If someone has been bringing the car to you for maintenance and repairs, he isn't a complete and utter tight arse and the car hasn't been sorted to an acceptable degree (i.e. the owner can have full confidence in the car to give him a good experience & bring him home), it's YOUR responsibility & no one elses. They're simple old things underneath after all...
This is absolutely true in my experience. Too many times I've seen TVR 'specialists' taking the easy route & charging full whack whenever trouble occurs because they know they have a get out of jail card handed to them next time something goes awry: "Yeah, that's TVRs for you..."
How f***ing short sighted. A dozen years after the last cars left Bristol Avenue I can safely say it's this utter lack of professionalism that keeps the brand image and values low and causes owners to bail out at some point (and possibly bad mouthing the TVR experience for years/decades after). In 2018 you really cannot blame the factory anymore. If someone has been bringing the car to you for maintenance and repairs, he isn't a complete and utter tight arse and the car hasn't been sorted to an acceptable degree (i.e. the owner can have full confidence in the car to give him a good experience & bring him home), it's YOUR responsibility & no one elses. They're simple old things underneath after all...
baconsarney said:
If I ever sell the ad would go something like this....
Iconic British marque, hand built in England, two door two seat convertible in Highland Pearl with black leather interior.
Front engine rear wheel drive with 5 speed manual gearbox and limited slip differential.
Uprated engine, suspension and brakes, aftermarket ECU, optimised electrical systems
5 litre V8 built and extensively breathed on by well known engine builders V8 developments.
360bhp and 354lb/ft - 0-60 under 4 seconds and top speed 170-180mph.
Stunning and in mint condition, yours for just.... £???? (insert best guess here)
(pic below...)
Won’t be worth a lot as it’s not original
Iconic British marque, hand built in England, two door two seat convertible in Highland Pearl with black leather interior.
Front engine rear wheel drive with 5 speed manual gearbox and limited slip differential.
Uprated engine, suspension and brakes, aftermarket ECU, optimised electrical systems
5 litre V8 built and extensively breathed on by well known engine builders V8 developments.
360bhp and 354lb/ft - 0-60 under 4 seconds and top speed 170-180mph.
Stunning and in mint condition, yours for just.... £???? (insert best guess here)
(pic below...)
Won’t be worth a lot as it’s not original
probably because I've been a 3 for 20+ yearsmotul1974 said:
Give it time...this always happens to cars. Look at Porsche prices 10-15 years ago, even some BMW's.
When I looked at buying my 1st TVR, about 10 or 11 years ago, the 964 911 was a bit more than a a good Chim and the a little bit more again over the price of a good Stag. I bought the TVR and a couple of years later sold the Stag at about 50% more than the average market price (it was a very good one)Now, I would have to stick a good chunk of money on top of the current TVR to buy the Stag back and I can't really think about buying a good 964.
If I do sell the TVR, sit tight on yours - dead cert to go up rapidly.
motul1974 said:
.
But if I'm to be honest, I dont think about or even want my car to be an investment....all that stuff just drives down the love of simply driving them!
This But if I'm to be honest, I dont think about or even want my car to be an investment....all that stuff just drives down the love of simply driving them!
It is great when a car appreciates instead of going down in value, but do i see my car as an investment......NO !Prices for the Chimaera are rising at a steady rate, and this is a good thing.
Most of us spend money on our cars to keep them in tip top shape.
A gentle rise in value each year counterbalances this expenditure.
I like to DRIVE my car, and not worry about clocking up the miles, or anything else for that matter.
If i had been lucky enough to own a Sagaris a few years back, 25k to 30k approx value,i would off been driving it and enjoying it.
Would that still apply now with the values as they are ?
For me personally NO. Only because i could no longer justify driving around in a + 60k car [and rising] as a weekend toy.
I think its a fine balance berween using and fully enjoying your car, or as prices really start to rise,worrying about taking it out for a
drive and having an effect on its value.
All of the above is just my opinion, but for me a slow steady increase in value is best, especially if you want to just DRIVE these
fabulous cars.
To any Sagaris owners that do drive and fully enjoy their cars, then i applaud you.
I would be frightened to death of damaging the car in any way, because of its value, so therefore would be unable to relax and
simply drive it.
i always find this "price & value" discussion amusing....
are you owning your car for fun or do you own it as an investment?
if for mnvetment you should:
1. never drive it
2. store it in the best possible invironment
3. you should have bought the best available car on the market in the beginning.
if you missed only 1 of the 3 points....say goodbye to the invested money.....
lots of owners think: purchase price+investments for maintenance and upgrades = sales price. definately wrong!!
the majority of cars need a lot of money invested to bring them (back) into a condition where value will rise & kept.
but at the end of the day the invested money will be higher, than buying a well-sorted car from the beginnng.
my car for example, even its not too bad cost me 7.5k 1year ago...it has a complete new chassis & suspension, new brakes around incl. calipers, new clutch..it runs well, has new mot, kidn of reliable....but it still has the original body with all the blemishes after 25 years, the original interior with lots of "patina"...and a hood which is fully functional but faded and showing some signs of age here & there....a high mileage engine and drivetrain, which is working well, but on longterm for sure need money spent.
lets start caluclating:
perfect respray: 3-4k or even more ?
complete interior : 2k ?
new hood: ??
engine & drivetrain overhault: 5k?
new wiring loom, at least the enginebay one: 1k?
labour costs for stripping and assembling?
time for any labour done by myselves, blocking my "time" for doing any other jobs generating profit. ?
even the car looked kind of cheap for 7.5k with a new chassis, looking on above calulation, theoretically , i should have not paid more than ?? 1k, 2k, 3k? you know what i mean...
because for 17k i would get a perfect-perfect-perfect chimi...without doing anything...just paying money, sign a sales contract ...job done.
are you owning your car for fun or do you own it as an investment?
if for mnvetment you should:
1. never drive it
2. store it in the best possible invironment
3. you should have bought the best available car on the market in the beginning.
if you missed only 1 of the 3 points....say goodbye to the invested money.....
lots of owners think: purchase price+investments for maintenance and upgrades = sales price. definately wrong!!
the majority of cars need a lot of money invested to bring them (back) into a condition where value will rise & kept.
but at the end of the day the invested money will be higher, than buying a well-sorted car from the beginnng.
my car for example, even its not too bad cost me 7.5k 1year ago...it has a complete new chassis & suspension, new brakes around incl. calipers, new clutch..it runs well, has new mot, kidn of reliable....but it still has the original body with all the blemishes after 25 years, the original interior with lots of "patina"...and a hood which is fully functional but faded and showing some signs of age here & there....a high mileage engine and drivetrain, which is working well, but on longterm for sure need money spent.
lets start caluclating:
perfect respray: 3-4k or even more ?
complete interior : 2k ?
new hood: ??
engine & drivetrain overhault: 5k?
new wiring loom, at least the enginebay one: 1k?
labour costs for stripping and assembling?
time for any labour done by myselves, blocking my "time" for doing any other jobs generating profit. ?
even the car looked kind of cheap for 7.5k with a new chassis, looking on above calulation, theoretically , i should have not paid more than ?? 1k, 2k, 3k? you know what i mean...
because for 17k i would get a perfect-perfect-perfect chimi...without doing anything...just paying money, sign a sales contract ...job done.
Edited by LLantrisant on Sunday 16th December 11:19
Being just fortunate works as well. I could pretend I was wise but it was an accident that I bought a W reg Chimaera 400 for £6950 in Nov 2013. I did hesitate at the time because there were even cheaper ones about at the time. It had 80k miles on it and was OK, no immediate work needed. But over 3 yrs; clutch slave, manifold leaks, injectors cleaned, 2 services, immobiliser, starter, fuel lines, rockers painted etc etc cost me £2500 in maintenance.
I sold it in May 2017 with 86k on it for £10,900. Because the market had gone up. Man maths says I made £1400 but not really, although the insurance, car tax and fuel were paid for.
Your point about never driving it is probably correct, although if I bought one for 'investment.' I would still start it regularly and drive it if only a few miles to warm up. Never using them will bring big problems at some point.
I sold it in May 2017 with 86k on it for £10,900. Because the market had gone up. Man maths says I made £1400 but not really, although the insurance, car tax and fuel were paid for.
Your point about never driving it is probably correct, although if I bought one for 'investment.' I would still start it regularly and drive it if only a few miles to warm up. Never using them will bring big problems at some point.
LLantrisant said:
for 17k i would get a perfect-perfect-perfect chimi...without doing anything...just paying money, sign a sales contract ...job done.
You would get a good one for 17k yes but the 'perfect' ones are going for more like 20k+I know prices have dipped a bit recently but have a look at the best ones on sale.
I don't plan selling mine thankfully
eric450 said:
LLantrisant said:
for 17k i would get a perfect-perfect-perfect chimi...without doing anything...just paying money, sign a sales contract ...job done.
You would get a good one for 17k yes but the 'perfect' ones are going for more like 20k+I know prices have dipped a bit recently but have a look at the best ones on sale.
I don't plan selling mine thankfully
look...even when you would need to pay 20k for a top-top chmi....the average chim will never arrive in the same condition when investing in total 20k (purchase price, plus repairs and upgrades)....the average chim needs around 15-20k to bring it in that condition....plus purchase price, plus own investment for time etc.
what i want to say: the chim is not a car for any investment (not yet).
what i want to say: the chim is not a car for any investment (not yet).
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