Whats Your MaP (kPa)?
Discussion
I have Canems fitted and had my laptop plugged into it this morning, partially due to the revs being very slow to drop to idle under no load. I resealed the plenum and don't think I have an air leak. I thought maybe the TPS output was incorrect but it isn't. 
Anyway, my manifold pressure is 38 kPa at idle immediately rising to about 90 kPa with throttle opening (warm engine). There is an outlet pipe in the stepper motor housing used for the sensor, at least where the stepper motor used to be.
Standard 4.0 engine and cam.
Anyway, my manifold pressure is 38 kPa at idle immediately rising to about 90 kPa with throttle opening (warm engine). There is an outlet pipe in the stepper motor housing used for the sensor, at least where the stepper motor used to be.
Standard 4.0 engine and cam.
Edited by ianwayne on Sunday 30th September 12:17
ianwayne said:
I have Canems fitted and had my laptop plugged into it this morning, partially due to the revs being very slow to drop to idle under no load. I resealed the plenum and don't think I have an air leak. I thought maybe the TPS output was incorrect but it isn't.
Anyway, my manifold pressure is 38 kPa at idle immediately rising to about 90 kPa with throttle opening (warm engine). There is an outlet pipe in the stepper motor housing used for the sensor, at least where the stepper motor used to be.
Standard 4.0 engine and cam.
Hi Ian Anyway, my manifold pressure is 38 kPa at idle immediately rising to about 90 kPa with throttle opening (warm engine). There is an outlet pipe in the stepper motor housing used for the sensor, at least where the stepper motor used to be.
Standard 4.0 engine and cam.
Edited by ianwayne on Sunday 30th September 12:17
I was forced to disconnect the idle air control valve on my Canems system because it was causing the priming pulse to constantly loop, with the key on in position one and the idle valve connected... the fuel pump will buzz - stop - buzz and just keeps cycling like that over and over until you crank the engine, obviously like this the Canems system is also dosing the inlet manifold with fuel every time I hear the fuel pump buzz which at best means a flooded engine and at worse... well lets not go there!
It shouldn't do this either
And the above without me even touching the throttle, it would be nice to think I've created the first Rover V8 that will rev to 26,785rpm but the truth is it was cold cranking at 300rpm tops!
As soon as the ECU sees a engine cranking signal or the engine is running I believe the looping issue becomes a non-issue, but my Canems ECU most definitely shouldn't loop the fuel pump & priming pulse with the key just sat in position one (ignition on), what it should do of course is run the priming pulse strategy for a second or two then turn it off.
The thing is this is my fourth (or is it fifth) Canems ECU, and none of the earlier versions did the looping priming pulse thing, nothing has changed with my car's wiring since I fitted my latest Canems ECU, the only thing thats changed is apparently my latest replacement ECU came with the new supposedly improved more sensitive crank sensor arrangement, MORE SENSITIVE being quite the most laughable understatement!
The outcome being (for whatever reason) my new ECU just doesn't like the idle valve anymore.... or the rad fans for that matter as they've been proven to stimulate the priming pulse too if the engine is hot enough for the fans to chime in when you switch the key to position one...
It wouldn't be so bad, but the priming pulse circuit on my car is also responsible for my LPG safety solenoids, so with the idle valve connected the solenoids are effectively permanently open and the injectors permanently open which just floods the plenum and inlet manifold with explosive LPG, clearly this has potentially deadly consequences so you'd think the ECU manufacturer would be keen to help... but sadly it seems he only answers my emails when I send him a good news story
I've recently reached out for help from him but the silence is deafening, Lloyd Specialist Developments did try to sort it out and made it a little better for a short while but in the end the only way I could stop the looping issue and make the car safe was to disconnect the idle air control valve, yes that's right the very same idle air control valve the Canems system is designed to control, a fact that would be laughable if it wasn't so damn dangerous!
Now for something that may help everyone with a Canems system!
After disconnecting the idle air control valve which I was clearly forced to do for safety reasons, the car ran noticeably better than it ever has, the only disadvantage seems to be I now need to tickle the throttle on cold starts and hold the revs up to save the engine from stalling for the first 20-60 seconds (depending on ambient temps) of cold start/warm up.
This is much like others describe they have to do with their MBE systems that like my current Canems setup also does not have an idle air control valve, the drivability and idle stability improvements I'm enjoying since disconnecting my idle air control valve clearly suggests the Canems system has never controlled my idle air control valve properly.
Or perhaps it's the fact Lloyd Specialist Developments keep the cost of their Canems conversion down by choosing not to use a genuine Bosch made idle air control valve?.... Either way.... for drivability and more importantly for me safety reasons I am now forced to run with no idle valve at all, obviously this is a less than ideal situation but as the manufacturer hasn't even had the courtesy to respond to my email I guess that's the way it must stay
Try your Canems equiped TVR with the idle air control valve disconnected electrically and seal it's air feed too as I discovered at rest the valve isn't actually fully closed so the engine can always draw air from that path which is counter to everything I was ever taught about setting an engine up properly as basically it's just a vacuum leak which is a classic no-no
when tuning for a smooth idle and good low speed engine behavior.Admittedly I was professionally educated on carburetor tuning (and a bit of K-Jetronic), but the basic rules of engine tuning are just the same on carbs as they are on injection.. ie ALL VACUUM LEAKS ARE TO BE ELIMINATED WHEREVER POSSIBLE!
I don't care what anyone says, an idle valve that still remains open even after you no longer need it's extra air bleed to maintain idle speed is a bad idea, it seems what you get with the fake Bosch valve you get with the Canems system is not a small bleed either, in my case it's actually huge, the kind of big ol vacuum leak the old boys who taught me carb tuning would have beaten me for missing
I also think before all my priming pulse looping woes the Canems system wasn't controlling the pattern part valve properly anyway, either that or the installer needs to consider using a genuine Bosch item, in closed loop fueling mode the ECU makes a pretty good fist of hitting the AFR targets and compensating for the inconsistent air bleed caused by the errant behavior of the idle air control valve.... but it's essentially always working at ten tenths to do so as the system is effectively fighting itself!
The bottom line is from what I've witnessed on my car and those of others running the Canems engine management system too, you are way way better off unplugging the dubious quality pattern part idle valve from the Canems ECU and blocking the valve's air supply too to create a proper old school sealed system...well as near as you can with the essential crankcase ventilation system such as it is.
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Sunday 30th September 19:00
We're a bit off topic because I was supplying your request for manifold pressure readings on aftermarket systems, but I've also read about your priming pulsing problems elsewhere. I have no issues there, thankfully. Sometimes, my fuel system barely primes at all because there is sufficient pressure in the rail. Surely, you are not dosing your inlet manifold with fuel if the injectors are not running? This doesn't happen at key position one, the pump runs only to provide pressure.
My system has been set up to run open loop (no lambdas other than during set up) so that may affect how it all works. Your use of LPG is a variance very few other users will have, especially also with an aftermarket ECU, and that information you displayed indicates a serious error of some kind!
I had a conversation with Daniel at the Neil Garner open day on Saturday and will be contacting him by email regarding my follow up. I don't believe I have an "additional" air leak (I've re-sealed the plenum) but the idle speed is hanging at 1400 rpm quite regularly, providing a sort of undemanded cruise control! The manifold pressure as displayed is consistent too.
I thought my idle valve was a Bosch item but now I'm not sure. I've also asked if there is a way of doing some kind of bench test on it. It can take 20 sesonds or more for the idle speed to drop from 1400 to 1000 on a warm engine.
My system has been set up to run open loop (no lambdas other than during set up) so that may affect how it all works. Your use of LPG is a variance very few other users will have, especially also with an aftermarket ECU, and that information you displayed indicates a serious error of some kind!
I had a conversation with Daniel at the Neil Garner open day on Saturday and will be contacting him by email regarding my follow up. I don't believe I have an "additional" air leak (I've re-sealed the plenum) but the idle speed is hanging at 1400 rpm quite regularly, providing a sort of undemanded cruise control! The manifold pressure as displayed is consistent too.
I thought my idle valve was a Bosch item but now I'm not sure.
I've also asked if there is a way of doing some kind of bench test on it. It can take 20 sesonds or more for the idle speed to drop from 1400 to 1000 on a warm engine.
I don't mind a bit of off topic Ian, I'm the OP after all and actually there are links between what the idle valve is doing and MaP.
For the record the priming pulse feature runs your fuel pump and at the same time opens your injectors to wet the inlet manifold, however it will only do the injector opening element below a certain coolant temperature threshold that you (or your installer/mapper) has set using the Canems software. Of course my looping priming pulse is a fault, this is the point of my last post along with expressing my dissatisfaction with the ECU manufacturer who has failed to answer my email asking for help to resolve the issue, which is clearly a fault unique to my latest replacement ECU by the way.
I'd treat any pattern part idle valve with suspicion as they are not made to anywhere near the standards one might expect from the genuine Bosch article, I've seen them fail before and when they do they rattle like a child’s toy. When they fail the valve becomes very unpredictable, manifold vacuum which is a very strong force can act on the failed internal mechanism allowing the engine to draw way more air than the ECU is telling the valve to bleed in, this may well be your high idle fault.
The ECU manufacturer is very aware of my looping problem BTW as it came with the fifth replacement ECU he sent me in September last year and the issue was discussed extensively with him then, sadly I'm now left in a situation where the installer is either blaming their customer for my innocent misfortune or the manufacturer himself which is comical as they both work hand in glove, the manufacturer's response to all this being silence.
Of course after much fighting my point, it was looked at free of charge by the installers earlier this year, but not before I was told I needed to pay them some £600 to rewire my engine management system, this from the same installers who wired it in the first place! Sadly they failed to fix the problem which continues to this day if I reconnected my idle valve, good job I refused to pay the proposed £600 for that fix!
The truth is I've had multiple Canems failures over a five year period that averages one catastrophic failure and replacement system every 12 months, during this long period I did not reveal the issues to the TVR community as I wanted to give a chance for the manufacturer and installers to get it right.
Five years of consistent failures is a long time, it’s also a long time for a paying customer to maintain their patience, and clearly there comes a point where my generous and extremely patient approach has to end and the system should just work as advertised. In this case the tipping point came with the fifth replacement ECU that while working brilliantly in every other respect still presents a fault, I should add the looping priming pulse is a new and different fault from those before and this time is one that has safety implications.
I'm a reasonable guy, I’ve also been a dedicated promoter of Canems and the installers on these pages too, and probably the best free salesperson they ever could have dreamt of, so to be frank you'd think the support would be better.
Of course everyone has their limit, even me! My patience and optimism has run dry, the bottom line is if something doesn't work as advertised the customer should be properly supported. He most certainly should not be told the issue is of his own making and he definitely should not be asked to pay £600 to rewire the loom by the very same people who created and fitted the loom in the first place.
To be clear though, I do not believe the issue is with the wiring at all, the issue to my mind resides within the latest replacement ECU, it seems highly likely this example was simply not correctly shielded from EMI when it was built. It is my belief based on much clear evidence that manufacturer left something out of my latest replacement ECU when he built it, something like a diode or a zener diode that relates to the ECU’s ability to resist the effects of electromagnetic interference.
At this point I should share that this would not be the first time something has been left out of one of my many replacement ECU’s, on one occasion I discovered the manufacturer forgot to fit the ceramic heat pads following yet another Canems failure. Obviously that ECU blew itself up too as the ceramic heat pads are essential to take the heat generated by the injector drivers inside the ECU and transfer it to the large aluminium heat sink plate the installers screw in the passenger footwell.
With no ceramic heat pads fitted catastrophic failure of the delicate injector drivers was inevitable, the pads are a fundamental element of the ECU design so how and why the manufacturer and designer himself was able to forget to fit them is beyond me? Leaving the pads out also raised serious questions over the consistency of work and attention to detail, both absolutely essential elements fundamental to the quality manufacture of electronics.
And as it turns out the ceramic heat pads aren’t even ceramic as advertised anyway, they are aluminium with some kind of anodized coating on them designed to insulate the drives from shorting out through the pad as it pulls all the heat they generate away and into the heat sink. I have had countless injector driver failures in the last 5 years, looking at these pads and their micron thin anodized insulation coating and the way they interact with the aluminium heat sink plate it is highly likely my failures were the result of the coating rubbing off the pads through vibration so causing a short circuit and frying the delicate drivers.
With all the above facts in mind I’m currently finding it difficult to continue to recommend either Canems or the installers until at which point they do the right thing and resolve my latest issue of priming pulse looping, which is definitely not of my making. It's a shame really as the system has such potential, the software is incredibly easy to use and the 50mpg plus I get from running LPG is game changing, if only all this could be matched by decent reliability and customer support it would be a truly brilliant thing.
For the record the priming pulse feature runs your fuel pump and at the same time opens your injectors to wet the inlet manifold, however it will only do the injector opening element below a certain coolant temperature threshold that you (or your installer/mapper) has set using the Canems software. Of course my looping priming pulse is a fault, this is the point of my last post along with expressing my dissatisfaction with the ECU manufacturer who has failed to answer my email asking for help to resolve the issue, which is clearly a fault unique to my latest replacement ECU by the way.
I'd treat any pattern part idle valve with suspicion as they are not made to anywhere near the standards one might expect from the genuine Bosch article, I've seen them fail before and when they do they rattle like a child’s toy. When they fail the valve becomes very unpredictable, manifold vacuum which is a very strong force can act on the failed internal mechanism allowing the engine to draw way more air than the ECU is telling the valve to bleed in, this may well be your high idle fault.
The ECU manufacturer is very aware of my looping problem BTW as it came with the fifth replacement ECU he sent me in September last year and the issue was discussed extensively with him then, sadly I'm now left in a situation where the installer is either blaming their customer for my innocent misfortune or the manufacturer himself which is comical as they both work hand in glove, the manufacturer's response to all this being silence.
Of course after much fighting my point, it was looked at free of charge by the installers earlier this year, but not before I was told I needed to pay them some £600 to rewire my engine management system, this from the same installers who wired it in the first place! Sadly they failed to fix the problem which continues to this day if I reconnected my idle valve, good job I refused to pay the proposed £600 for that fix!
The truth is I've had multiple Canems failures over a five year period that averages one catastrophic failure and replacement system every 12 months, during this long period I did not reveal the issues to the TVR community as I wanted to give a chance for the manufacturer and installers to get it right.
Five years of consistent failures is a long time, it’s also a long time for a paying customer to maintain their patience, and clearly there comes a point where my generous and extremely patient approach has to end and the system should just work as advertised. In this case the tipping point came with the fifth replacement ECU that while working brilliantly in every other respect still presents a fault, I should add the looping priming pulse is a new and different fault from those before and this time is one that has safety implications.
I'm a reasonable guy, I’ve also been a dedicated promoter of Canems and the installers on these pages too, and probably the best free salesperson they ever could have dreamt of, so to be frank you'd think the support would be better.
Of course everyone has their limit, even me! My patience and optimism has run dry, the bottom line is if something doesn't work as advertised the customer should be properly supported. He most certainly should not be told the issue is of his own making and he definitely should not be asked to pay £600 to rewire the loom by the very same people who created and fitted the loom in the first place.
To be clear though, I do not believe the issue is with the wiring at all, the issue to my mind resides within the latest replacement ECU, it seems highly likely this example was simply not correctly shielded from EMI when it was built. It is my belief based on much clear evidence that manufacturer left something out of my latest replacement ECU when he built it, something like a diode or a zener diode that relates to the ECU’s ability to resist the effects of electromagnetic interference.
At this point I should share that this would not be the first time something has been left out of one of my many replacement ECU’s, on one occasion I discovered the manufacturer forgot to fit the ceramic heat pads following yet another Canems failure. Obviously that ECU blew itself up too as the ceramic heat pads are essential to take the heat generated by the injector drivers inside the ECU and transfer it to the large aluminium heat sink plate the installers screw in the passenger footwell.
With no ceramic heat pads fitted catastrophic failure of the delicate injector drivers was inevitable, the pads are a fundamental element of the ECU design so how and why the manufacturer and designer himself was able to forget to fit them is beyond me? Leaving the pads out also raised serious questions over the consistency of work and attention to detail, both absolutely essential elements fundamental to the quality manufacture of electronics.
And as it turns out the ceramic heat pads aren’t even ceramic as advertised anyway, they are aluminium with some kind of anodized coating on them designed to insulate the drives from shorting out through the pad as it pulls all the heat they generate away and into the heat sink. I have had countless injector driver failures in the last 5 years, looking at these pads and their micron thin anodized insulation coating and the way they interact with the aluminium heat sink plate it is highly likely my failures were the result of the coating rubbing off the pads through vibration so causing a short circuit and frying the delicate drivers.
With all the above facts in mind I’m currently finding it difficult to continue to recommend either Canems or the installers until at which point they do the right thing and resolve my latest issue of priming pulse looping, which is definitely not of my making. It's a shame really as the system has such potential, the software is incredibly easy to use and the 50mpg plus I get from running LPG is game changing, if only all this could be matched by decent reliability and customer support it would be a truly brilliant thing.
ChimpOnGas said:
I don't mind a bit of off topic Ian, I'm the OP after all and actually there are links between what the idle valve is doing and MaP.
For the record the priming pulse feature runs your fuel pump and at the same time opens your injectors to wet the inlet manifold, however it will only do the injector opening element below a certain coolant temperature threshold that you (or your installer/mapper) has set using the Canems software. Of course my looping priming pulse is a fault, this is the point of my last post along with expressing my dissatisfaction with the ECU manufacturer who has failed to answer my email asking for help to resolve the issue, which is clearly a fault unique to my latest replacement ECU by the way.
I'd treat any pattern part idle valve with suspicion as they are not made to anywhere near the standards one might expect from the genuine Bosch article, I've seen them fail before and when they do they rattle like a child’s toy. When they fail the valve becomes very unpredictable, manifold vacuum which is a very strong force can act on the failed internal mechanism allowing the engine to draw way more air than the ECU is telling the valve to bleed in, this may well be your high idle fault.
The ECU manufacturer is very aware of my looping problem BTW as it came with the fifth replacement ECU he sent me in September last year and the issue was discussed extensively with him then, sadly I'm now left in a situation where the installer is either blaming their customer for my innocent misfortune or the manufacturer himself which is comical as they both work hand in glove, the manufacturer's response to all this being silence.
Of course after much fighting my point, it was looked at free of charge by the installers earlier this year, but not before I was told I needed to pay them some £600 to rewire my engine management system, this from the same installers who wired it in the first place! Sadly they failed to fix the problem which continues to this day if I reconnected my idle valve, good job I refused to pay the proposed £600 for that fix!
The truth is I've had multiple Canems failures over a five year period that averages one catastrophic failure and replacement system every 12 months, during this long period I did not reveal the issues to the TVR community as I wanted to give a chance for the manufacturer and installers to get it right.
Five years of consistent failures is a long time, it’s also a long time for a paying customer to maintain their patience, and clearly there comes a point where my generous and extremely patient approach has to end and the system should just work as advertised. In this case the tipping point came with the fifth replacement ECU that while working brilliantly in every other respect still presents a fault, I should add the looping priming pulse is a new and different fault from those before and this time is one that has safety implications.
I'm a reasonable guy, I’ve also been a dedicated promoter of Canems and the installers on these pages too, and probably the best free salesperson they ever could have dreamt of, so to be frank you'd think the support would be better.
Of course everyone has their limit, even me! My patience and optimism has run dry, the bottom line is if something doesn't work as advertised the customer should be properly supported. He most certainly should not be told the issue is of his own making and he definitely should not be asked to pay £600 to rewire the loom by the very same people who created and fitted the loom in the first place.
To be clear though, I do not believe the issue is with the wiring at all, the issue to my mind resides within the latest replacement ECU, it seems highly likely this example was simply not correctly shielded from EMI when it was built. It is my belief based on much clear evidence that manufacturer left something out of my latest replacement ECU when he built it, something like a diode or a zener diode that relates to the ECU’s ability to resist the effects of electromagnetic interference.
At this point I should share that this would not be the first time something has been left out of one of my many replacement ECU’s, on one occasion I discovered the manufacturer forgot to fit the ceramic heat pads following yet another Canems failure. Obviously that ECU blew itself up too as the ceramic heat pads are essential to take the heat generated by the injector drivers inside the ECU and transfer it to the large aluminium heat sink plate the installers screw in the passenger footwell.
With no ceramic heat pads fitted catastrophic failure of the delicate injector drivers was inevitable, the pads are a fundamental element of the ECU design so how and why the manufacturer and designer himself was able to forget to fit them is beyond me? Leaving the pads out also raised serious questions over the consistency of work and attention to detail, both absolutely essential elements fundamental to the quality manufacture of electronics.
And as it turns out the ceramic heat pads aren’t even ceramic as advertised anyway, they are aluminium with some kind of anodized coating on them designed to insulate the drives from shorting out through the pad as it pulls all the heat they generate away and into the heat sink. I have had countless injector driver failures in the last 5 years, looking at these pads and their micron thin anodized insulation coating and the way they interact with the aluminium heat sink plate it is highly likely my failures were the result of the coating rubbing off the pads through vibration so causing a short circuit and frying the delicate drivers.
With all the above facts in mind I’m currently finding it difficult to continue to recommend either Canems or the installers until at which point they do the right thing and resolve my latest issue of priming pulse looping, which is definitely not of my making. It's a shame really as the system has such potential, the software is incredibly easy to use and the 50mpg plus I get from running LPG is game changing, if only all this could be matched by decent reliability and customer support it would be a truly brilliant thing.
Wow, sorry to hear of your frustrations Dave, that does not sound like an ideal situation at all. The idea of an aftermarket ECU is it is supposed to enhance the ownership experience by providing refinement and piece of mind of having a more reliable system. In terms of reliability yours appears to be worse! Hopefully all the savings you have made on LPG have paid for your time investigating ECU faults when you should be out enjoying the car For the record the priming pulse feature runs your fuel pump and at the same time opens your injectors to wet the inlet manifold, however it will only do the injector opening element below a certain coolant temperature threshold that you (or your installer/mapper) has set using the Canems software. Of course my looping priming pulse is a fault, this is the point of my last post along with expressing my dissatisfaction with the ECU manufacturer who has failed to answer my email asking for help to resolve the issue, which is clearly a fault unique to my latest replacement ECU by the way.
I'd treat any pattern part idle valve with suspicion as they are not made to anywhere near the standards one might expect from the genuine Bosch article, I've seen them fail before and when they do they rattle like a child’s toy. When they fail the valve becomes very unpredictable, manifold vacuum which is a very strong force can act on the failed internal mechanism allowing the engine to draw way more air than the ECU is telling the valve to bleed in, this may well be your high idle fault.
The ECU manufacturer is very aware of my looping problem BTW as it came with the fifth replacement ECU he sent me in September last year and the issue was discussed extensively with him then, sadly I'm now left in a situation where the installer is either blaming their customer for my innocent misfortune or the manufacturer himself which is comical as they both work hand in glove, the manufacturer's response to all this being silence.
Of course after much fighting my point, it was looked at free of charge by the installers earlier this year, but not before I was told I needed to pay them some £600 to rewire my engine management system, this from the same installers who wired it in the first place! Sadly they failed to fix the problem which continues to this day if I reconnected my idle valve, good job I refused to pay the proposed £600 for that fix!
The truth is I've had multiple Canems failures over a five year period that averages one catastrophic failure and replacement system every 12 months, during this long period I did not reveal the issues to the TVR community as I wanted to give a chance for the manufacturer and installers to get it right.
Five years of consistent failures is a long time, it’s also a long time for a paying customer to maintain their patience, and clearly there comes a point where my generous and extremely patient approach has to end and the system should just work as advertised. In this case the tipping point came with the fifth replacement ECU that while working brilliantly in every other respect still presents a fault, I should add the looping priming pulse is a new and different fault from those before and this time is one that has safety implications.
I'm a reasonable guy, I’ve also been a dedicated promoter of Canems and the installers on these pages too, and probably the best free salesperson they ever could have dreamt of, so to be frank you'd think the support would be better.
Of course everyone has their limit, even me! My patience and optimism has run dry, the bottom line is if something doesn't work as advertised the customer should be properly supported. He most certainly should not be told the issue is of his own making and he definitely should not be asked to pay £600 to rewire the loom by the very same people who created and fitted the loom in the first place.
To be clear though, I do not believe the issue is with the wiring at all, the issue to my mind resides within the latest replacement ECU, it seems highly likely this example was simply not correctly shielded from EMI when it was built. It is my belief based on much clear evidence that manufacturer left something out of my latest replacement ECU when he built it, something like a diode or a zener diode that relates to the ECU’s ability to resist the effects of electromagnetic interference.
At this point I should share that this would not be the first time something has been left out of one of my many replacement ECU’s, on one occasion I discovered the manufacturer forgot to fit the ceramic heat pads following yet another Canems failure. Obviously that ECU blew itself up too as the ceramic heat pads are essential to take the heat generated by the injector drivers inside the ECU and transfer it to the large aluminium heat sink plate the installers screw in the passenger footwell.
With no ceramic heat pads fitted catastrophic failure of the delicate injector drivers was inevitable, the pads are a fundamental element of the ECU design so how and why the manufacturer and designer himself was able to forget to fit them is beyond me? Leaving the pads out also raised serious questions over the consistency of work and attention to detail, both absolutely essential elements fundamental to the quality manufacture of electronics.
And as it turns out the ceramic heat pads aren’t even ceramic as advertised anyway, they are aluminium with some kind of anodized coating on them designed to insulate the drives from shorting out through the pad as it pulls all the heat they generate away and into the heat sink. I have had countless injector driver failures in the last 5 years, looking at these pads and their micron thin anodized insulation coating and the way they interact with the aluminium heat sink plate it is highly likely my failures were the result of the coating rubbing off the pads through vibration so causing a short circuit and frying the delicate drivers.
With all the above facts in mind I’m currently finding it difficult to continue to recommend either Canems or the installers until at which point they do the right thing and resolve my latest issue of priming pulse looping, which is definitely not of my making. It's a shame really as the system has such potential, the software is incredibly easy to use and the 50mpg plus I get from running LPG is game changing, if only all this could be matched by decent reliability and customer support it would be a truly brilliant thing.
I know you are pushing the envelope with the LPG side of things but I was under the impression that the Canems ECU package offered by Lloyds was a warrantied drive-in drive-out solution. To be honest if you are not getting any traction with the installer or the manufacturer then it does not leave much hope for the normal customer as you have been a known advocate for Lloyds and Canems.
I had pretty much decided on an MBE mainly as it is used by OEMs and CE marked, but that has now cemented it for me. Thank you for sharing your story and I hope you manage to find a suitable resolution. Please keep us updated on how you get on.
It's not so bad Matthew.
The car runs beautifully all be it now without an idle valve, which in practice is only an issue during the warm up phase, I can solve that easily enough with a cable controlled extra air valve which can't possibly make the ECU loop.
I guess I'll be going back to my vintage car days where a fast idle lever worked brilliantly, I'll use my brain as an ECU like we did back in the oldun days, I have a simple brain but for sure there are no EMI issues with it
Sometimes the simple is best, although I really shouldn't be forced to go backwards with these things
The car runs beautifully all be it now without an idle valve, which in practice is only an issue during the warm up phase, I can solve that easily enough with a cable controlled extra air valve which can't possibly make the ECU loop.
I guess I'll be going back to my vintage car days where a fast idle lever worked brilliantly, I'll use my brain as an ECU like we did back in the oldun days, I have a simple brain but for sure there are no EMI issues with it
Sometimes the simple is best, although I really shouldn't be forced to go backwards with these things
Ian, my car has the canems system fitted by lloyds. The revs would take ages to decay from 2000 rpm. I removed the PWM air idle valve and blocked the holes and set the idle speed using the main butterfly only. I also use spark scatter to control it a bit. I also fitted a carefully adjusted shut off valve to let some extra air in when the engine is cold. When the engine reaches 40 degrees c I manually shut off the extra air and the car idles perfectly.
Lloyd developments have got back to me. Apparently, they did have a bad batch of aftermarket idle control valves but for the last few years have only used Bosch. For the price of postage, they will test mine and replace it if it is defective. And it's over 2 yrs old so that is a very good response. If I can't establish an air leak anywhere else, I will do this.
Sorry to hear that the Canems aftermarket has gone a bit sour. Aside from my high idle speed, it's still great on my Chimaera. Accelerates smoothly and starts first time hot or cold.
Sorry to hear that the Canems aftermarket has gone a bit sour. Aside from my high idle speed, it's still great on my Chimaera. Accelerates smoothly and starts first time hot or cold.
ChimpOnGas said:
The truth is I've had multiple Canems failures over a five year period that averages one catastrophic failure and replacement system every 12 months, during this long period I did not reveal the issues to the TVR community as I wanted to give a chance for the manufacturer and installers to get it right.
ChimpOnGas said:
It's not so bad Matthew.
So you have had the ECU for 5 years and you have had one catastrophic failure and replacement system every 12 months? So 5 ECUs? I would class that as pretty bad. I have had one ECU for 19 years, granted I have had a couple of wiring issues but nothing that has warranted hardware replacement of the ECU. Hopefully Canems have resolved the quality control issues now. Customers like you are gold dust: tolerant, willing to feedback issues and help with product development and free advertising. Why they are not willing to assist this time is beyond me.
Hopefully this is a temporary glitch and the customer service you have come to expect will return and you can get those last few little glitches sorted out and enjoy your car with 50+MPG petrol cost equivalent - yes I have been listening
Best of luck with this Dave I hope you get it sorted soon, sounds like you are painstakingly close.
Matthew Poxon said:
So you have had the ECU for 5 years and you have had one catastrophic failure and replacement system every 12 months? So 5 ECUs? I would class that as pretty bad. I have had one ECU for 19 years, granted I have had a couple of wiring issues but nothing that has warranted hardware replacement of the ECU.
Hopefully Canems have resolved the quality control issues now. Customers like you are gold dust: tolerant, willing to feedback issues and help with product development and free advertising. Why they are not willing to assist this time is beyond me.
Hopefully this is a temporary glitch and the customer service you have come to expect will return and you can get those last few little glitches sorted out and enjoy your car with 50+MPG petrol cost equivalent - yes I have been listening
Best of luck with this Dave I hope you get it sorted soon, sounds like you are painstakingly close.
Me too. In fact the only TVR I had running/ECU/ wiring problems with was the one that had the aftermarket ECU fitted. It's certainly food for thought before anyone jumps in and replaces a perfectly good original set up just because they feel they 'need' to.Hopefully Canems have resolved the quality control issues now. Customers like you are gold dust: tolerant, willing to feedback issues and help with product development and free advertising. Why they are not willing to assist this time is beyond me.
Hopefully this is a temporary glitch and the customer service you have come to expect will return and you can get those last few little glitches sorted out and enjoy your car with 50+MPG petrol cost equivalent - yes I have been listening
Best of luck with this Dave I hope you get it sorted soon, sounds like you are painstakingly close.
Good luck with yours Dave, I wouldn't be impressed at all.
ianwayne said:
Lloyd developments have got back to me. Apparently, they did have a bad batch of aftermarket idle control valves but for the last few years have only used Bosch. For the price of postage, they will test mine and replace it if it is defective. And it's over 2 yrs old so that is a very good response. If I can't establish an air leak anywhere else, I will do this.
Sorry to hear that the Canems aftermarket has gone a bit sour. Aside from my high idle speed, it's still great on my Chimaera. Accelerates smoothly and starts first time hot or cold.
Hmmmm, mine is definitely an old pattern part thing that came with my early Canems installation, no genuine Bosh idle valve for me Sorry to hear that the Canems aftermarket has gone a bit sour. Aside from my high idle speed, it's still great on my Chimaera. Accelerates smoothly and starts first time hot or cold.
However, my issues run deeper than just the make of valve
In my case it's quite clearly an ECU shielding issue, what I'd like to be offered is a replacement ECU to test this theory, if it solves the problem as I suspect it will I'd then then send my faulty ECU back and keep the working unit which would mean 30 minutes down time for the car not weeks at Lloyds only to get it back with the exact same fault..... as happened with the last attempt to fix the problem.
An exchange dual fuel ECU is surely a perfectly reasonable request? After five years of failures I've certainly become quite adept at pulling them out and fitting the next improved version.
Every time I suffer a failure it ends in me being without the car on LPG for weeks and weeks, fortunately following the first ECU failure while I was touring France in August 2013 I was sent a petrol only ECU to get me back to the UK, over the years this ECU has kept me rolling on many many occasions, I call it my 'Petrol Only Get Me Home ECU' and keep it in the car at all times along with the tools I need to fit it at the side of the road.
• MARCH 2013 - ECU FAILURE No 1
• JUNE 2013 - ECU FAILURE No 2
• AUGUST 2013 - ECU FAILURE No 3
• JANUARY 2016 - ECU FAILURE No 4
• AUGUST 2017 - ECU FAILURE No 5
On each occasion I have to say I've been supported, usually by being supplied a replacement ECU, the latest one sent to me in September 2017 has so far proved itself to be reliable, sadly though it came with the new fault of looping the priming pulse feature, the installer told me I needed £600 of rewiring work which I found odd as the ECU was wired by them in the first place
Then it failed again, at which point I was quizzed with great suspicion on the LPG injectors currently used as I was clearly being suspected of bringing injector driver burn out issues on myself by fitting different injectors, they of course were the Hana injectors fitted by the installer themselves although I did recently discover they pinched an injector wire when installing them which they have now put right. I was also told the looping was probably my fault as I'd fitted a small electric water pump which was likely generating EMI issues, again I was able to prove the installers fitted that pump themselves as I'd fortunately retained the invoice and emails relating to it's installation. In any case how is it I've had at least three other Canems ECU with that little water pump in place and none of them caused the looping, and how is it if I go outside now and fit my old get me home ECU there will be no more looping too (I've proved this over and over again).
By this time being accused of bringing all these recent issues myself was starting to get up my very patient nose, and I was getting weary of producing evidence to the contrary, after all this and a stream of backwards and forwards exchange of emails the installer finally agreed to the car back to fix the latest failure which turned out to be all the gas building up in the plenum caused by the looping priming pulse had literally blown the MaP sensor hose clean off the back of the plenum... caused by pure pressure not an explosion thank God!
With the little hose reinstated the route cause was investigated which was clearly the looping priming pulse, so the crank signal earth wire was moved from the battery where the manufacturer had wrongly told me to connected it and was relocated to the engine block/cylinder head where it should have been. I was then told the car was ready for collection, I was clear to challenge it really was ready and fixed before taking time off work and making the long journey to collect, I was reassured it was.
Sadly when I arrived while the car was running it was not running well at all and the looping priming pulse was soon to raise its ugly head again, clearly after having the car for three weeks it was far from being fixed. I remapped the system and ditched the idle valve altogether at which point not only did the looping issue disappear but the engine ran noticably better than it ever had which leads me to believe that pattern part idle valve had never ever worked properly. This all brings us neatly to where I'm at now, the car is running brilliantly but if I reconnect the idle valve or the rad fans chime in with the key in position one.... the priming pulse will loop!
I dont think the installers are in a position to fix my faulty ECU, they are not ECU or electronics engineers, only the manufacturer can help which would be fine if only he would answer my emails and phone calls, I'm sure if he took a look at my latest replacement ECU he'd find the fault in no time, but it seems quite clear he filters his emails and calls
To be honest I'd far prefer it if my Canems system didn't keep failing and throwing up EMI looping faults in the first place, but as we can see from the above list of failures it's been rather problematic over the last five years so I'm now very concerned the manufacturer is winding down his business.... which in reality wouldn't make much difference for all the response I'm getting from him these days
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Tuesday 2nd October 00:18
Blimey that's a tale of woe, bet it's not up here much longer
I must say though you've been an advocate of this system for years and sang its praises to anyone who'd listen/read your very detailed posts and yet all this time you've had nothing but bother with it. I will stand corrected if you have indeed mentioned it but some of your posts are very long so I could've missed it
I must say though you've been an advocate of this system for years and sang its praises to anyone who'd listen/read your very detailed posts and yet all this time you've had nothing but bother with it. I will stand corrected if you have indeed mentioned it but some of your posts are very long so I could've missed it
5 ECU failures in 5 years must be very frustrating. I’m curious to know do they refurbish/repair the orginal ecu each time or swap for a brand new one?
If they are swapping for a brand new ECU (and assuming other people are not having similar problems) then in my mind it would point to a fault outside the manufacturers control.
I think 5 years on from the original purchase (especially electronics) the manufacturer has likely reached the end of his good will and like anything as a consumer you either cough up for the new model or buy another brand.
If they are swapping for a brand new ECU (and assuming other people are not having similar problems) then in my mind it would point to a fault outside the manufacturers control.
I think 5 years on from the original purchase (especially electronics) the manufacturer has likely reached the end of his good will and like anything as a consumer you either cough up for the new model or buy another brand.
ray von said:
Blimey that's a tale of woe, bet it's not up here much longer
I must say though you've been an advocate of this system for years and sang its praises to anyone who'd listen/read your very detailed posts and yet all this time you've had nothing but bother with it. I will stand corrected if you have indeed mentioned it but some of your posts are very long so I could've missed it
I've always accepted the dual fuel ECU I have is something different, I understood there were some development rough edges to be knocked off as I went along. I should also say there are always details that sit behind these type of stories that may or may not have had an influence on reliability. I'm referring to the early use of low Ohm Keihin LPG injectors, although no one ever said or I suspect even knew they may cause issues as the manufacturer kept on testing the ECU with these injectors and declaring it fit for service.I must say though you've been an advocate of this system for years and sang its praises to anyone who'd listen/read your very detailed posts and yet all this time you've had nothing but bother with it. I will stand corrected if you have indeed mentioned it but some of your posts are very long so I could've missed it
Unfortunately the Keihin injector issue has been proven to be largely irrelevant now as I've suffered at least two injector driver failures on the ECU safe 1.9 Ohm Hana injectors. Fortunately the ECU for now is not burning out it's injector drivers, I've had a year of service out of it in this respect so I'm praying I've past the dreaded driver failures that have plagued my Canems dual fuel experience for may years and left me stranded a number of times.
But while the latest ECU seems robust so far in respect of driver failure it frustratingly came with the new fault of looping the priming pulse over and over again if the idle valve remains connected. Lloyd Specialist Developments have always tried to help but getting a response from David Hampshire of Canems is a bit like catching smoke
To be clear many electrical components cause the looping issue with this latest ECU, the idle valve, the radiator fans ect ect all stimulate the looping fault. Obviously the rad fans and the idle valve are integral components to the correct functioning of the car so we need to move on from blaming them, clearly the ECU should be able to cope.
All the many other ECUs I've had never ever displayed this looping priming pulse issue, if I plug in my petrol 'Get Me Home' ECU today it will not cause the issue either, and sadly Lloyds kind efforts to relocate the crank signal sensor wire earth did not solve the problem either.
Thanks to Lloyds I now have the right wiring to match my latest ECU but the ECU still loops the priming pulse, I now think we need to accept the problem is not with my wiring, electric water pump (now removed completely) or any other electrical component.... The issue to me clearly resides within the latest replacement dual fuel ECU that David Hampshire sent me in September last year.
Based on this evidence it seems clear to me the looping problem is a fault inside the latest replacement dual fuel ECU, or more specifically something that's not inside it. Just as David Hampshire left the heat pads out of one of my many replacement ECUs causing yet another injector driver failure I strongly suspect he also forgot to add a component that is responsible for shielding when he built my latest one.
Understandably I can not afford any more down time with the car due to Canems ECU issues, so I've asked Danny Lloyd if he could loan me a new and tested dual fuel ECU to try? Within the 30 minutes it takes me to swap the ECUs we would have our answer, this could all be done by post which seems a far more logical approach than sending the car away and losing it for weeks on end again.
My bet is as soon as I fit the new dual fuel ECU the looping with completely disappear, I have emailed David Hampshire a few weeks ago now asking for help but as normal he's ignored my message, and I know he checks his emails because last year when I sent him an email to say the car was running well he answered within 24 hours.
I'm now at a complete loss as to what to do so can only turn to Lloyd Specialist Development for support.
Despite the many failures I've suffered in the last five years of running the Canems dual fuel system I'm of the optimistic opinion all my injector driver failures are behind me, this makes the looping priming pulse even more frustrating as I can't help feeling the system is finally close to being perfected on my TVR.
Dave.
lancelin said:
Ian, my car has the canems system fitted by lloyds. The revs would take ages to decay from 2000 rpm. I removed the PWM air idle valve and blocked the holes and set the idle speed using the main butterfly only. I also use spark scatter to control it a bit. I also fitted a carefully adjusted shut off valve to let some extra air in when the engine is cold. When the engine reaches 40 degrees c I manually shut off the extra air and the car idles perfectly.
Are you using the ecu to control the fans? If you wanted to go back to the otter switch, you could use the ecu controlled fan output to send a signal to something like a pierburg 22594 ACF valve, or something with more flow if you need it, with the signal inverted through a N/C relay and set the fan temp for 40degC.That way you'd get extra air through the valve up to 40degC whereupon the fan output would trigger the relay into its N/O position so closing the valve.
I've used tricks like this on race cars before where we don't have a dedicated IACV output.
Ian, my car has the canems system fitted by lloyds. The revs would take ages to decay from 2000 rpm. I removed the PWM air idle valve and blocked the holes and set the idle speed using the main butterfly only. I also use spark scatter to control it a bit. I also fitted a carefully adjusted shut off valve to let some extra air in when the engine is cold. When the engine reaches 40 degrees c I manually shut off the extra air and the car idles perfectly.
I am using the ecu to control the fans but there is a second output that was controlling the PWM idle valve. This second output can also be configured to operated a temperature control and like you say it could be used to switch my shut off valve but it’s not working correctly on my canems ecu! Fault I think. I might fit an independent temperature controller to switch my shut off valve at 40 or like you say the other option is the otter switch for the fans and use the previous fan output. To be honest, I like the manual switch and relay I installed under the steering column. Easy. My car now sits at 1000rpm when started from cold with the shut off valve open. I can manually switch it out while the car is running without any adverse effects. I needed to experiment with a restrictor in the air pipe to give the right amount of air. My car drives well without that dam PWM idle valve. I found it also cased a horrible throttle response.
Edited by lancelin on Tuesday 2nd October 12:59
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