Top end tappety type noise

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OK looks like we can go for refitting everything.

I have a brand new genuine Land Rover woodruff key, supplied by Andy at Powers. Have test fitted and it appears much tighter and will need taping into final position so could well suit.

If that doesn't work then Mike Luck will make one for me 1.2 mm higher than standard from a piece of 3/16" woodruff key steel plate.

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Sardonicus said:

blaze_away said:

RPI just sent me a photo shows depth of keyway is 6.66mm

Mine is 7.8mm

EUREKA now need to get a custom made key cut

Sweeping statement from someone I value opinion of little brand new crank 7.10 mm at deepest/centre an area the key does not bottom out anyway it is located in the milled profile as a whole they should know that (machine tolerance's) should be but isn't in other words the key is not an exact copy/form of the crank groove , and that key you have is it genuine? or made to manufacturers spec/size or just some old universal or crudely machined up knockout? Peter had my last new keyway and I am not attempting removal of the one in pictured crank

Edited by Sardonicus on Friday 14th June 11:24

That's interesting I wasn't aware that ".....key does not bottom out ....."

I am even more hopeful the genuine Land Rover part will do the trick

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Making progress, had Alun here most of the day and we have fitted a genuine Land Rover woodruff key and it is indeed a tight fit sticks up about 1.6mm is the right length and engages with crank sprocket, oil sprocket and front pulley.


Just need to a vacuum unit for the distributor some genuine spark plugs and a few hours more and we can run it up see if cylinder 7 runs and if we still have the original top end tappety noise.

New woodruff key

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He might not be worth 500 but I wouldn't quibble at 50p hell if I was feeling in a really good mood I'd pay him 75p bit rash I know but he is worth it.

Nice job on the gaskets and his tippy tappy fine hammer work getting that woodruff key millimicrons perfect was a thing of beauty. Tapped ith the precision and timing of Phil Collins

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Here's hoping for the right answer I want on this little nuance....

When reinstalling the crank driven oil gears should I have packed them with grease ?

If the answer is YES then the fronts got to come off again ooops.......

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Sardonicus said:

Nope soaked in cam lube or oil etc will prime soon enough, if its not a rebuild fill the filter with as much oil as you can and fire the beast straight up the oil light will go out after a couple seconds

Edited by Sardonicus on Sunday 16th June 10:40

Thank you
Right answer.....phew

Just read this.....in that manual Lancepar provided link to, I did not do 2. aligning reference marks, to be fair I did look but didn't see any so carried on. Does it need to come off for checking ?

Oil pump reassembly instructions
1. Lubricate rotors, oil pump drive gear, cover
plate and housing with engine oil.
2. Assemble rotors in housing ensuring that
reference marks are aligned.

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lancepar said:

Agreed,

Frank, the oil pump reassembly instruction in the book are for a preserp oil pump, that's why I said some instructions don't apply.

Thanks Lance, I think those are for serpentine but will check again

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Sardonicus said:

On serp pump outer rotor has chamfer this needs to face into front cover

Edited by Sardonicus on Sunday 16th June 12:27

Okidoki

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blaze_away said:

Sardonicus said:

On serp pump outer rotor has chamfer this needs to face into front cover

Edited by Sardonicus on Sunday 16th June 12:27

Okidoki

Just for clarity do you mean the face with the chamfer should be towards the rear of the car ?

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Sardonicus said:

Towards/facing front pulley or front of car

Thanks for clarifying. Will get it off and check it.

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Nice to see and hear talk of this music. Every cloud (noise) has a silver lining eh

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Got the front cover off to check for reference marks and make sure the chamfer is facing forward,

Of the 3 rotors the only one wit an alignment mark is the middle sized one. Cant find any marks on the outer ring or pump housing to align to and no references other than that vague instruction in previous post.

There is some very light scoring on the flat surfaces (like an LP record) but not enough for even the thinnest of feeler gauges.

Before dismantling


Inside base plate


Rotors in place


Inside housing


Side A


Side B


Reassembled with main drive sprocket


ditto


I cant really see much more to do other than assemble with chamfer forward, lube up with oil and stick it all back in.

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Brief update....

Front end all back together genuine LR woodruff key did the job.

Got the distributor back in (Anthony's spare) as a small piece of metal fell from mine whilst fitting the new vacuum unit, so now need a distributor.

Found TDC by rotating the engine with Depth Gage inserted through plug hole and set rough timing and again find that the Crankshaft Pulley is a problem as its still showing 45 degrees out (retarded) with the pulley fully engaged on the new woodruff key.

ie When engine is at TDC the TDC mark on the pulley is 45 degrees further round from the engine casing pointer. As you look at it from the front if the TDC is at 12 o'clock the TDC on the pulley is at 1:30





Powers has one and they balance them on site so off there to get it.

Edited by blaze_away on Thursday 20th June 11:17

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Got a facebook thread going on rover v8 appreciation.

A suggestion is that timing mark on engine casing for 4.6 and 3.9 is different ??

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New damper purchased from Powers in Coventry.

Key way and TDC are aligned with each other on new damper.

Old one had delaminated and moved 45 degrees

Ancillary bits moved onto new one and all balanced up.

Now fitted to engine awaiting final assembly and test run.

Photos to follow

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Old damper removed and new damper fitted.

Shows clearly that old one had delaminated and slipped 45 degrees



This shows arrangement of the inner and outer rings of steel with rubber sandwiched beween them and cracks and delamination

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Good and bad news

All fitted back together correctly timed with the timing marks now aligning perfectly with real TDC. Ignition timing set at 10 degrees vac off at 950 rpm.

Good used distributor fitted with new vac advance unit installed as the diaphragm was leaking. Vac advance confirmed operational wirh timing light.
New plugs cap leads fitted.
Some suspect electrical connectors repaired for good measure. Harmonic balance pulley installed. So all in all good work done.

HOWEVER
Cylinder 5 and 7 still cold tapping noise at 3100rpm still there.

Back to the drawing board.......

I'm thinking

1. Recheck with dti actual valve lift height on each cylinder
2 If consistent then head off 1,3,5,7 side to see if head gasket is leaking between cylinders 5 and 7
3 Do other side as might as well do both

BTW I have straight through exhaust manifolds no cats so will take heads off with manifolds attached to avoid the difficulty of exhaust bolts access, is that sensible ?

Also whilst off remove manifolds and fit new gaskets and bolts.

Is this plan rational or what ?

My straight through SS manifolds

Edited by blaze_away on Saturday 22 June 15:12

Edited by blaze_away on Saturday 22 June 15:14

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Steve_D said:

blaze_away said:

............HOWEVER
Cylinder 5 and 7 still cold tapping noise at 3100rpm still there.

Back to the drawing board.......

I'm thinking

1. Recheck with dti actual valve lift height on each cylinder
2 If consistent then head off 1,3,5,7 side to see if head gasket is leaking between cylinders 5 and 7
3 Do other side as might as well do both

Have I missed a stage somewhere.
Have you tested the injectors or moved them to different cylinders?
If not then you have to do that before anything else.

From your list above.
1. When you say 5&7 are cold how cold are they? A (very) worn cam would reduce power but would still burn fuel and produce heat but perhaps not as much heat. If you want to measure lift you will have to remove the rockers as the lifters will bleed down under pressure from the valve springs and give a false reading. Remove rockers and measure against the pushrods alone. You don't need a TDI a steel rule will do as you are looking for millimetres of difference .

2. Again a blow between cylinders will still have the heat as each cylinder fires. Compression or leakdown test first.

Steve

Hi Steve

Thanks for the reply.
Yes have swapped injectors around and the ones that were on 5 and 7 perform as expected on the cylinders they were moved too. Had stethoscope on inj 5 n 7 and they sound like all the others.
Have swapped leads around too and fitted the spark testers no issues seen.
2 4 6 and 8 300 degrees plus
1 and 3 300 degrees plus
5 is 120
7 is 90

When I turned engine over with rocker covers off I could see valves opening/closing similar amounts to others but didnt measure. So will repeat this as you suggested with rockers off.

Its baffling me, I cant rationalise whats happening with the evidence before me.

Fwiw ...if I start the after a couple of hours I get a clatter on start up for a couple of seconds, leaky lifter maybe ?

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QBee said:

This suggests no combustion in both 5 & 7.
5 is a tad warmer than 7 because 3 is closer to it, whereas 7 is on the end (no st, Sherlock?)
So either fuel is not there at the relevant time, or neither has a spark at the correct time.

Frank, are you ABSOLUTELY sure that the leads to 5&7 haven't been reversed?
Have you simply tried swapping the plug caps over and seeing what happens?

Don't think I've done that, firing order checked by both me and Alun........will go check it again.
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
Yep that's what we've got.

QBee sent me some spare leads I will fit those ........

Agree with your two conclusions too
"So either fuel is not there at the relevant time, or neither has a spark at the correct time"
So swapped ECU's for "fuel" just for good measure, no change.

Ooohh your post just triggered a memory of a thought I had a few days back......
I will get the injector rail off and put a small sample vial (urine test type) on each injector and crank engine see if they all deliver similar amounts of fuel. (Coil disabled of course)

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QBee said:

Do me a favour......please just try swapping over 5 and 7 plug caps then start the engine with your digital thermometer in your hand. It will only take three minutes tops.

Then tell me i am wrong.

Oh alright then.....whatever makes you happy