Jobs, Progress and Questions!
Discussion
Success, I hope!
Tool arrived today, slightly surprisingly, so I found some spare time at work and went out to hopefully fix it. This thing is a bit fiddly, and none of the YouTube videos show that often, for some reason, it will not tighten up and pull the little "puck" in the bottom up and expand the thread. Easy to do when it is outside of the car, less easy when it is in but after some perseverance, I seem to have managed it.
I didn't go all in straight away and just used it a couple of times, and it seems to have cleaned up the thread enough for me to get the plug back in and tightened up.
She sounds ok to me - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl-SNUiTGAg I know I need to take her out for a run to make sure nothing pops, but I'll take the success for now!
A sample of the plugs look like this -
What do we think of their condition? To my (very) untrained eye, I don't think they look great and show signs of over fueling?
The Lambda will wait for another day, I didn't have a chance to mess with it (and the drivers side one is in a VERY awkward position, I'll probably relocate it when tested), and my back was killing me.
I should be clearer about them though - I got the same "wrong" readings from both Lambda's. I was getting the "signal" on the red wire and the voltage on the black wire, whereas ACT has that the other way around (white was still ground). I haven't been able to check the wiring along the run very closely, but the passenger side looked unmodified.
Tool arrived today, slightly surprisingly, so I found some spare time at work and went out to hopefully fix it. This thing is a bit fiddly, and none of the YouTube videos show that often, for some reason, it will not tighten up and pull the little "puck" in the bottom up and expand the thread. Easy to do when it is outside of the car, less easy when it is in but after some perseverance, I seem to have managed it.
I didn't go all in straight away and just used it a couple of times, and it seems to have cleaned up the thread enough for me to get the plug back in and tightened up.
She sounds ok to me - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl-SNUiTGAg I know I need to take her out for a run to make sure nothing pops, but I'll take the success for now!
A sample of the plugs look like this -
What do we think of their condition? To my (very) untrained eye, I don't think they look great and show signs of over fueling?
The Lambda will wait for another day, I didn't have a chance to mess with it (and the drivers side one is in a VERY awkward position, I'll probably relocate it when tested), and my back was killing me.
I should be clearer about them though - I got the same "wrong" readings from both Lambda's. I was getting the "signal" on the red wire and the voltage on the black wire, whereas ACT has that the other way around (white was still ground). I haven't been able to check the wiring along the run very closely, but the passenger side looked unmodified.
Thank you, it is a bit of a relief!
Back to Lambda fun! I have now tested the heater circuit on both (and consider my wiring seems to be the opposite of what ACT says it should be), on both sides White and Black read as 6.5 ohms, and White and Red read as 0.L which am pretty sure means Open and therefore no continuity.
I am considering picking up a lambda sensor to try and confirm the wiring, and see if it makes a difference. This I suspect is too cheap and means it is a Zirconia part - https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-ERR6729P and not a Titania part, which is disappointing.
Before I do, anything else to try? Should I look to test at the ECU side?
Due to the drivers side being so awkward I ended up testing it at the Plenum connection, I just couldn't really get to the connector without lifting the car, so am confident up to there is ok.
Back to Lambda fun! I have now tested the heater circuit on both (and consider my wiring seems to be the opposite of what ACT says it should be), on both sides White and Black read as 6.5 ohms, and White and Red read as 0.L which am pretty sure means Open and therefore no continuity.
I am considering picking up a lambda sensor to try and confirm the wiring, and see if it makes a difference. This I suspect is too cheap and means it is a Zirconia part - https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-ERR6729P and not a Titania part, which is disappointing.
Before I do, anything else to try? Should I look to test at the ECU side?
Due to the drivers side being so awkward I ended up testing it at the Plenum connection, I just couldn't really get to the connector without lifting the car, so am confident up to there is ok.
Only the driver side is very awkward, which is why I checked it at the connection at the Plenum, but I did unplug it and test the actual socket.
On the passenger side, I checked it from the socket directly attached to the lambda, unplugged from the loom.
I have read the ACT doc and I guess the next bit is to take the car out and give it a good drive to and test the lambdas then, and check at the ECU (carefully).
Obviously I don’t know they are cheap knockoffs, so will see if I can get one genuine sensor to compare with.
On the passenger side, I checked it from the socket directly attached to the lambda, unplugged from the loom.
I have read the ACT doc and I guess the next bit is to take the car out and give it a good drive to and test the lambdas then, and check at the ECU (carefully).
Obviously I don’t know they are cheap knockoffs, so will see if I can get one genuine sensor to compare with.
Yes, other than the wires being different to the docs, everything on the lambda side itself seems as it should be. Will get it up to temp and see what it does then, and be very careful with checking the ECU.
Reading the 14CUX Lambda Fault Finding doc, it does reference incorrectly connected plug wires, and at least one of the old beru extenders was very loose and just came away without any effort, and another was so welded to the plug I had to unscrew it from the plug before I could remove it. While getting the car up to temp etc, I'll stick Rovergauge on again, clear the codes and see what it does.
Reading the 14CUX Lambda Fault Finding doc, it does reference incorrectly connected plug wires, and at least one of the old beru extenders was very loose and just came away without any effort, and another was so welded to the plug I had to unscrew it from the plug before I could remove it. While getting the car up to temp etc, I'll stick Rovergauge on again, clear the codes and see what it does.
Ok, so took the car for a good run and got it nice and hot. With Rovergauge connected, I could see short term trim (visually) on the even bank was at +100%, but the odd bank never moved. Checked the log, and both show 255 (so 100%). I am wondering if I am having a software issue causing Rovergauge not to display properly, although everything else is showing up in it fine. When switching to Long Term, nothing came up at all.
Log example -
I am going to put Rovergauge on a Windows laptop I have sitting around and see what it does. I'll also try and record the screen on both laptops.
However, after reading various PDFs and the ACT thing again and again, because my brain is very slow, I do believe either both lambda's are faulty or there is wiring issue in the loom somewhere. I have ordered one lambda to test with a known good one.
Testing them again (with the engine hot and running), both were only showing 8.5 volts at the lambda end, and am pretty sure it is supposed to be 12 at the lambda as well as the relay, correct? Also, when checking the sensor return, they were sitting at 0.1v and pretty much never moved - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svIZUwtQkPo&fe... . I did rev the engine as well, to see if this made any difference, and held it at just over 1000rpm, but nothing (I couldn't video the multimeter while doing this!).
On the Lambda fault finding document, it suggests to pull a vaccum line off to see if things move, but which one? Does it matter? I also have some easy start on the way to see if that makes any difference when sprayed.
Also, I got a bit of smoking on the drivers side from the plugs/socks - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdMUDCtou38&fe... This is slightly concerning, but might just be the socks themselves touching the block? Should I pull them back up a bit?
Finally, towards the end of the drive I started getting some whining from what I think was just to the left/behind me, which I suspect is the fuel pump and it stopped when I stopped and came back when revving etc. Since I am fairly certain the car is running rich with the above RG output, I assume the fuel pump is being worked hard but is this the point I need to consider replacing it?
Log example -
I am going to put Rovergauge on a Windows laptop I have sitting around and see what it does. I'll also try and record the screen on both laptops.
However, after reading various PDFs and the ACT thing again and again, because my brain is very slow, I do believe either both lambda's are faulty or there is wiring issue in the loom somewhere. I have ordered one lambda to test with a known good one.
Testing them again (with the engine hot and running), both were only showing 8.5 volts at the lambda end, and am pretty sure it is supposed to be 12 at the lambda as well as the relay, correct? Also, when checking the sensor return, they were sitting at 0.1v and pretty much never moved - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svIZUwtQkPo&fe... . I did rev the engine as well, to see if this made any difference, and held it at just over 1000rpm, but nothing (I couldn't video the multimeter while doing this!).
On the Lambda fault finding document, it suggests to pull a vaccum line off to see if things move, but which one? Does it matter? I also have some easy start on the way to see if that makes any difference when sprayed.
Also, I got a bit of smoking on the drivers side from the plugs/socks - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdMUDCtou38&fe... This is slightly concerning, but might just be the socks themselves touching the block? Should I pull them back up a bit?
Finally, towards the end of the drive I started getting some whining from what I think was just to the left/behind me, which I suspect is the fuel pump and it stopped when I stopped and came back when revving etc. Since I am fairly certain the car is running rich with the above RG output, I assume the fuel pump is being worked hard but is this the point I need to consider replacing it?
Penelope Stopit said:
Yes the voltage at the sensors heater elements should be the same as the relay terminal 87 output that supplies them (give or take 0.something volts volt-drop)
With only having 8.5 volts at the heater elements, there is no point in testing any further until solving this fault
The volt-drop in the heater elements supply voltage circuit is intermittent (checked out ok earlier) and this is going to make tracing the fault a touch difficult
When 8.5 volts is present at the heater elements, first check that the earths to the heater elements are ok by connecting the volt meter between battery positive and those earths (battery positive being the best positive to use when checking negatives). If the earths are good, check what voltage is present at fuel pump relay terminal 87 that supplies them and should this be approximately 8.5 volts check what the input voltage at fuel pump terminal 30 is
There is a chance that the intermittent loss of voltage to the elements is being caused by bad earth points that are used by another or several other circuits, I'm wondering if the fault occurs when the temperature is up and the fans cut-in (fans using same earth point????)
Ok, thank you! I just need to confirm - I would connect positive to the battery positive and then negative to the ground wire for the Lambda and check resistance or voltage (am assuming resistance, but I want to be sure)? I will need to trace the wiring back into the cabin or under the dash to confirm exactly where they ground, correct? My probes aren't long enough to go that far into the engine bay from the battery..hehWith only having 8.5 volts at the heater elements, there is no point in testing any further until solving this fault
The volt-drop in the heater elements supply voltage circuit is intermittent (checked out ok earlier) and this is going to make tracing the fault a touch difficult
When 8.5 volts is present at the heater elements, first check that the earths to the heater elements are ok by connecting the volt meter between battery positive and those earths (battery positive being the best positive to use when checking negatives). If the earths are good, check what voltage is present at fuel pump relay terminal 87 that supplies them and should this be approximately 8.5 volts check what the input voltage at fuel pump terminal 30 is
There is a chance that the intermittent loss of voltage to the elements is being caused by bad earth points that are used by another or several other circuits, I'm wondering if the fault occurs when the temperature is up and the fans cut-in (fans using same earth point????)
I had actually checked the voltage at the relay, with the engine running (pin 87 white/orange for the lambdas and battery negative) and it was around 13.5 volts, but will double check. A previous check with just turning the ignition on but not starting the car, had it at 12 volts briely when it dropped away as expected. I will check pin 30 as well, with the car running, as I had previously checked with the ignition off and it had a constant 12v.
I'll check the different points along from the Plenum connections as well.
Re Rovergauge, I had a chance to try it shortly after posting on my other laptop, and both short term trims this time showed +100% but long term never moved (left it idling a while and made sure it was warm - I was expecting it to just hit 100%), so I am guessing that while there may be a display issue on the Linux version, it is still reading the data correctly.
What number should I expect? I must have done this wrong as I managed to extend the positive to the battery and the negative to the white lambda wire (ground) and I got 233 volts.
Did I totally misunderstand?
I checked the Plenum area connection on the side leading to the loom and got 8.5 volts.
Did I totally misunderstand?
I checked the Plenum area connection on the side leading to the loom and got 8.5 volts.
This is what I thought, but 230 volts was rather..alarming. It may have been how I had to extend the cable then, I've ordered some longer test leads that will just give a single run each side. On the positive side I had to use 2, one clamped to the battery terminal and then used a probe from the other to connect to the connector within the first.
I do have another multimeter I can test with, and also have a small probe camera coming which I am going to run round the back of the block to look at the wiring there, save me taking the whole lot apart if I don't need to!
The relay's themselves are pretty new, I have a receipt for them being replaced this year and are the correct Bosch items. Although what I failed to realise or remember before now is that the receipt also says they had to "Check all wiring and connections at fuseboard - repair loose connections as mess". I wonder if this is the source of my woe. I only noticed by using Rovergauge my Lambda's weren't doing anything so I guess they could easily have inadvertently knocked or damaged something in doing the work and not realised.
I do have another multimeter I can test with, and also have a small probe camera coming which I am going to run round the back of the block to look at the wiring there, save me taking the whole lot apart if I don't need to!
The relay's themselves are pretty new, I have a receipt for them being replaced this year and are the correct Bosch items. Although what I failed to realise or remember before now is that the receipt also says they had to "Check all wiring and connections at fuseboard - repair loose connections as mess". I wonder if this is the source of my woe. I only noticed by using Rovergauge my Lambda's weren't doing anything so I guess they could easily have inadvertently knocked or damaged something in doing the work and not realised.
Longer test leads arrived yesterday and this morning I managed to get back out to retest. I am confused.
Red Positive Battery to Lambda White
Engine OFF - 12 volts (both multimeters)
Engine on - 1 multimeter - 233 volts, the other - 0.21
Red Positive Battery to Lambda Black
Engine off - 12V (both multimeters)
Engine on - 8.5v (both multimeters)
Both lambdas have the same results.
At the relay, pin 30 has 12V all the time. The fuel and lambda pins (87) have 12v when engine running.
Someone has wired in (can't follow it at the moment) extra cigarrette lighter sockets, a triple. They are always live. I did test to see if plugging in my phone would make anything drop on the lambda side any further, but no, so I am assuming they are wired in correctly for now.
But, I am still confused. I assume this means there is an issue with the positive earth somewhere but everything else on the car works fine, so it must be isolated to the lambda's?
Red Positive Battery to Lambda White
Engine OFF - 12 volts (both multimeters)
Engine on - 1 multimeter - 233 volts, the other - 0.21
Red Positive Battery to Lambda Black
Engine off - 12V (both multimeters)
Engine on - 8.5v (both multimeters)
Both lambdas have the same results.
At the relay, pin 30 has 12V all the time. The fuel and lambda pins (87) have 12v when engine running.
Someone has wired in (can't follow it at the moment) extra cigarrette lighter sockets, a triple. They are always live. I did test to see if plugging in my phone would make anything drop on the lambda side any further, but no, so I am assuming they are wired in correctly for now.
But, I am still confused. I assume this means there is an issue with the positive earth somewhere but everything else on the car works fine, so it must be isolated to the lambda's?
Yes, I did use the positive battery terminal. Crocodile clip on to it, into the multimeter and then negative multimeter lead to the lambda (white and black, separate tests).
Only one meter showed 230v, the other was very low (0.21 volts). Which is annoying, since the newer meter was showing the high result.
Part of the reason I am confused, is when putting the multimeter negative lead to the white lambda wire (allegedly ground) and the red multimeter wire to the black lambda wire, I would get a negative reading (-8.5v), which is surely wrong? The leads were plugged into the correct multimeter inputs as well.
I do use a CTEK battery conditioner via the drivers door socket, but always make sure it is disconnected when doing any of these tests. As far as I know, there is no inverter and HIDs are not fitted.
The low voltage is constant, no matter if the car is warmed up or not.
Would the earth for lambda be the earth point at the radiator? Sure I read somewhere that the fans use that point, but they work fine. Everything else seems fine other than the lambdas.
I have already been considering taking this to someone to look at, as either I am an idiot (likely) or something is very wrong.
Only one meter showed 230v, the other was very low (0.21 volts). Which is annoying, since the newer meter was showing the high result.
Part of the reason I am confused, is when putting the multimeter negative lead to the white lambda wire (allegedly ground) and the red multimeter wire to the black lambda wire, I would get a negative reading (-8.5v), which is surely wrong? The leads were plugged into the correct multimeter inputs as well.
I do use a CTEK battery conditioner via the drivers door socket, but always make sure it is disconnected when doing any of these tests. As far as I know, there is no inverter and HIDs are not fitted.
The low voltage is constant, no matter if the car is warmed up or not.
Would the earth for lambda be the earth point at the radiator? Sure I read somewhere that the fans use that point, but they work fine. Everything else seems fine other than the lambdas.
I have already been considering taking this to someone to look at, as either I am an idiot (likely) or something is very wrong.
Thank you! As it happens, I was starting to think I had just confused the entire situation and decided I should throw away most of what I had done and start again. I think my results and findings are wrong, for the lambda wires, and I should trust all the docs that say white is ground, red is heater and black is signal.
Before that, and as I have been watching a LOT of Youtube videos re volt drop testing, I did that. Since red is positive/heater on the lambda side and on the loom side it is white/orange and I have repeated the tests at the relay side multiple times, I started there. Voltage drop test between white/orange and red on the lambda side showed nothing.
So, lets start again. White lambda wire to engine block and negative battery (since my wires are long enough to reach now). Both 5 Ohms. Yes, a ground issue. Sure this was fine last time, and I did confirm it on both multimeters.
I managed to get my endoscope camera into where I think the negative battery earths on the chassis (in the cabin, under the fibreglass, just before the gearbox on the centre console - multiple other PH posts indicate this!), and the battery cable looks fine. I did take some pics and will post them later, but they are on a separate computer, there are some other odd wires but might not be relevant.
Before that, and as I have been watching a LOT of Youtube videos re volt drop testing, I did that. Since red is positive/heater on the lambda side and on the loom side it is white/orange and I have repeated the tests at the relay side multiple times, I started there. Voltage drop test between white/orange and red on the lambda side showed nothing.
So, lets start again. White lambda wire to engine block and negative battery (since my wires are long enough to reach now). Both 5 Ohms. Yes, a ground issue. Sure this was fine last time, and I did confirm it on both multimeters.
I managed to get my endoscope camera into where I think the negative battery earths on the chassis (in the cabin, under the fibreglass, just before the gearbox on the centre console - multiple other PH posts indicate this!), and the battery cable looks fine. I did take some pics and will post them later, but they are on a separate computer, there are some other odd wires but might not be relevant.
Ok, thank you. ECU is easily accessible and can be disconnected. This will just be to test continuity/resistance along the earth, correct?
To find the join/issue, I will need to unwrap the loom and check behind the engine block as that is where the wires run, correct?
I only did from White to Battery Earth because it seemed prudent, but a standard test was White to the Engine block (from the ACT doc and other sources).
At least this is a good learning experience.
To find the join/issue, I will need to unwrap the loom and check behind the engine block as that is where the wires run, correct?
I only did from White to Battery Earth because it seemed prudent, but a standard test was White to the Engine block (from the ACT doc and other sources).
At least this is a good learning experience.
Ok, thank you both. I had read that thread, several times, but was really hoping it wouldn't go that far. 
I haven't had the time to do anything else yet, but am guessing if I do need to get access to the point, removing the inlet manifold etc will be required? How hard/effort is involved in that? How many hours should I book in with the wife? lol
Thanks
I haven't had the time to do anything else yet, but am guessing if I do need to get access to the point, removing the inlet manifold etc will be required? How hard/effort is involved in that? How many hours should I book in with the wife? lol
Thanks
Thanks, but after thinking about it I may try and make the most of the pain and put on a ported inlet manifold, trumpet base and 72mm plenum.
Other than making a Megasquirt (can you imagine me doing that) install potentially easier, anything else I should do with it off?
Won’t be able to do it soon, on holiday next week and the weather is not on my side either right now. I also want to take it all off before ordering bits (fun bits that is, new gaskets etc will be ordered first) just in case there are some unexpected surprises under there.
Other than making a Megasquirt (can you imagine me doing that) install potentially easier, anything else I should do with it off?
Won’t be able to do it soon, on holiday next week and the weather is not on my side either right now. I also want to take it all off before ordering bits (fun bits that is, new gaskets etc will be ordered first) just in case there are some unexpected surprises under there.
Holiday is in Portugal!
Some good progress was made today, I at least am now pretty sure what the problem is. After reading this, and watching a few videos I could see exactly where the stud for the earth on the rear of the engine was supposed to be, and I had some time today, so had a look/feel.
Aren't these supposed to be connected to something?
Sure this shouldn't be empty..
Does anyone know what the thread size (and length) for the stud and bolt should be? No idea why it isn't there, it either came out or someone removed it and never put it back.
I did also take the Plenum off to check it out, and unfortunately there were no nice surprises under there. All standard, but there was oil in in the top and when I unplugged the stepper motor connection, I realised the stepper itself just spins in the housing and has been MacGuyver cable tied up so it doesn't come out. That surely isn't right, is it? Thats another job on the list of things to fix!
Should I be worried about this -
Taken before I cleaned it all up and resealed the Plenum to the trumpet base!
Some good progress was made today, I at least am now pretty sure what the problem is. After reading this, and watching a few videos I could see exactly where the stud for the earth on the rear of the engine was supposed to be, and I had some time today, so had a look/feel.
Aren't these supposed to be connected to something?
Sure this shouldn't be empty..
Does anyone know what the thread size (and length) for the stud and bolt should be? No idea why it isn't there, it either came out or someone removed it and never put it back.
I did also take the Plenum off to check it out, and unfortunately there were no nice surprises under there. All standard, but there was oil in in the top and when I unplugged the stepper motor connection, I realised the stepper itself just spins in the housing and has been MacGuyver cable tied up so it doesn't come out. That surely isn't right, is it? Thats another job on the list of things to fix!
Should I be worried about this -
Taken before I cleaned it all up and resealed the Plenum to the trumpet base!
Since I don't have a 3/8 unc, I thought an M10 was at least worth a try! Conversion was found here - https://elginfasteners.com/resources/metric-bolt-c...
Back home now (wish I had stayed in Portugal), and inbetween the rain showers I managed to get out and put a short bolt in (ordered a few sizes, unfortunately they sent me some incorrect ones so went with the shortest for now). That fitted perfectly, although getting a spanner to it was challenging!
Due to the weather, I haven't had a chance to check it has fixed the Lambda's, but resistance is now correct and as expected to the block so hopefully all should be good now.
Since this is Scotland, not entirely sure when I will manage to get out in her before May, but fingers crossed!
Due to the weather, I haven't had a chance to check it has fixed the Lambda's, but resistance is now correct and as expected to the block so hopefully all should be good now.
Since this is Scotland, not entirely sure when I will manage to get out in her before May, but fingers crossed!
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