Yet another rv8 rich idle headache..
Discussion
So I’ve skipped off to the barn to swear at the car some more. I’ve got myself geared up with a selection of pipes and bits to see if I can provoke a vacuum leak anywhere before doing anything else.
I figured using a regulated 15psi supply from the compressor should be plenty to see if I can hear any leaks. First port of call was to rig up a funnel that handily fitted into the rubber plenum inlet pipe, discovered a hiss but no idea where from so again I introduced a puff of cigarette smoke into it, slipped the air gun back on and with a quick squirt I seem to have smoke coming from the back of the throttle spindle, I assume that shouldn’t leak?..
it’s rather hard to see exactly where it’s coming from but I’m sure it’s not coming from anywhere lower, now going to pull ram housing and check each inlet runner in turn and swap the injectors for the sake of it while it’s apart as I have a good known set.
I figured using a regulated 15psi supply from the compressor should be plenty to see if I can hear any leaks. First port of call was to rig up a funnel that handily fitted into the rubber plenum inlet pipe, discovered a hiss but no idea where from so again I introduced a puff of cigarette smoke into it, slipped the air gun back on and with a quick squirt I seem to have smoke coming from the back of the throttle spindle, I assume that shouldn’t leak?..
it’s rather hard to see exactly where it’s coming from but I’m sure it’s not coming from anywhere lower, now going to pull ram housing and check each inlet runner in turn and swap the injectors for the sake of it while it’s apart as I have a good known set.
I imagine it’s a problem with most ageing engines that still use a throttle, my van has a similar issue with a leaking egr valve spindle that blows crappy old oil out all over the place. One day I’ll try to see if I can get it bushed.
I imagine there would still be a market for a run of new twin inlet plenum covers should anyone be brave enough to make them!
I did a basic leakage test on the throttle spindle-
Held it vertically and sprayed carb cleaner on the outside and watched it dribble down through the bush onto the butterfly inside..
I then similarly checked the 3.9 one that came off the outgoing engine (which ran perfectly save for a cracked block) and another spare 4.2 one and they all seem to leak about the same amount. Not scientific by any means but all three ram covers (including the one I’m using on this engine) have their base idle screws set within a mm or so of each other too.
So, I managed to rig up some pipe work to the air line, removed plenum and checked for leaking inlet gasket down each inlet port with each at tdc in turn, nothing, no detectable leaks anywhere! I’d rather there was as I’m now all but stumped as to what can be causing the lean condition!.
Plugs still look the same after it's last run (on a cat map) no. 2&3 have a little colour the other six are lean white on one side of the insulator and black on the other (probably from me not cleaning them thoroughly after the engines first start up)
I didn’t get to swap the injectors as I damaged one of the o-rings taking them out so I gave up at that point and left the engine unceremoniously covered with a rag of shame..
I can’t seem to find the cause of this lean condition, no leaks, spot on ignition, fuel pressure correct, no fault codes. If I hadn’t owned this car for 12 years I’d be very tempted to send it to auction..
I imagine there would still be a market for a run of new twin inlet plenum covers should anyone be brave enough to make them!
I did a basic leakage test on the throttle spindle-
Held it vertically and sprayed carb cleaner on the outside and watched it dribble down through the bush onto the butterfly inside..
I then similarly checked the 3.9 one that came off the outgoing engine (which ran perfectly save for a cracked block) and another spare 4.2 one and they all seem to leak about the same amount. Not scientific by any means but all three ram covers (including the one I’m using on this engine) have their base idle screws set within a mm or so of each other too.
So, I managed to rig up some pipe work to the air line, removed plenum and checked for leaking inlet gasket down each inlet port with each at tdc in turn, nothing, no detectable leaks anywhere! I’d rather there was as I’m now all but stumped as to what can be causing the lean condition!.
Plugs still look the same after it's last run (on a cat map) no. 2&3 have a little colour the other six are lean white on one side of the insulator and black on the other (probably from me not cleaning them thoroughly after the engines first start up)
I didn’t get to swap the injectors as I damaged one of the o-rings taking them out so I gave up at that point and left the engine unceremoniously covered with a rag of shame..
I can’t seem to find the cause of this lean condition, no leaks, spot on ignition, fuel pressure correct, no fault codes. If I hadn’t owned this car for 12 years I’d be very tempted to send it to auction..
Thanks for that Mark, as you can imagine I’m confused myself.
I only have a co tester at home, the previous hc Reading was while plugged into a garage machine but judging purely on the toxic level of what’s coming out the tailpipe and using my co machine I can’t seem to effect much of a change. Even on a hot engine its chuffing out clouds of vapour and I can’t see any way of getting it down to a cat mot pass level!.
I haven’t had time to play with the maf again yet as I need to get the injectors/ plenum back together.
I’m going to change over the injectors and dizzy at the weekend although I’m fairly sure neither are at fault but it ticks off just about the last thing I can think of?!
I’m absolutely sure I timed the cam to real steels spec, spot on with a vernier chainset but if I had it a couple of degrees out would it cause this? I’d rather not pull it all apart to check if I don’t need to..
surely with a mild cam and not extreme cyl head changes it should still behave itself fairly well?
If I can’t find the fault at the weekend I’ll be saving up and looking for someone who can find the fault and make my much loved old landy purr like it should. Recommendations much appreciated!
I only have a co tester at home, the previous hc Reading was while plugged into a garage machine but judging purely on the toxic level of what’s coming out the tailpipe and using my co machine I can’t seem to effect much of a change. Even on a hot engine its chuffing out clouds of vapour and I can’t see any way of getting it down to a cat mot pass level!.
I haven’t had time to play with the maf again yet as I need to get the injectors/ plenum back together.
I’m going to change over the injectors and dizzy at the weekend although I’m fairly sure neither are at fault but it ticks off just about the last thing I can think of?!
I’m absolutely sure I timed the cam to real steels spec, spot on with a vernier chainset but if I had it a couple of degrees out would it cause this? I’d rather not pull it all apart to check if I don’t need to..
surely with a mild cam and not extreme cyl head changes it should still behave itself fairly well?
If I can’t find the fault at the weekend I’ll be saving up and looking for someone who can find the fault and make my much loved old landy purr like it should. Recommendations much appreciated!
I cant say I've had a lot of success with a home CO tester, I tried to correlate voltage the output from lambda probes with the CO, and even on a good engine results where from from stable or repeatable so I would not rely on one. Its not helped as the two sides of the V8 fuel differently without lambda control anyway. Now what comes out of the tail pipe- if its black its over rich. Now white has to be water vapour that would be a head gasket or the like. If it burns your eyes its likely to be hydrocarbons from memory, the lean side of things is worse than the rich. In terms of mixture measurement direct measurement from the lambda probes on a non cat map is the most reliable, but this goes wrong if you have a misfire
To check for this on all pots you need to check the peak HT on each plug line, as a high HT shows an open circuit or non firing plug, or a low voltage shows an HT leak to ground. Gunson used to go a great tester you clamped around the lead to show the peak but its not available any more but you might get lucky if you buy 8 of the neon type inline testers and check to see if the brightness is the same across all the cylinders. They are very cheap to buy. Otherwise the old style crypton tuners could display HT wave forms that tell you a lot.
Also, have you checked the obvious? Is the ignition timing correct ? Lambda readings will be wrong if the timing is incorrect. The TDC pointer on the Preserp engine can be in the wrong position, so worth checking every thing lines up with a pencil on number one plug hole to show its at TDC when the marks align up. Also check you have advance with a strobe. The vacuum advance is shut off at idle to make the ignition later than ideal, as this burns any pollutants on the way out of the exhaust port, but if the vacuum take of is moved to get a better idle (good trick) the pollutants will go up to n MOT fail.
I hope you don't have the cam timing wrong, it would be difficult to tell without strapping a couple of dial test indicators on the rocker and number 1 piston to accurately check.
The bottom line here is to be 100% certain on the results of each test you do, as if you throw too many variables into your diagnosis you will go round and round in circles. Where are you geographically?
To check for this on all pots you need to check the peak HT on each plug line, as a high HT shows an open circuit or non firing plug, or a low voltage shows an HT leak to ground. Gunson used to go a great tester you clamped around the lead to show the peak but its not available any more but you might get lucky if you buy 8 of the neon type inline testers and check to see if the brightness is the same across all the cylinders. They are very cheap to buy. Otherwise the old style crypton tuners could display HT wave forms that tell you a lot.
Also, have you checked the obvious? Is the ignition timing correct ? Lambda readings will be wrong if the timing is incorrect. The TDC pointer on the Preserp engine can be in the wrong position, so worth checking every thing lines up with a pencil on number one plug hole to show its at TDC when the marks align up. Also check you have advance with a strobe. The vacuum advance is shut off at idle to make the ignition later than ideal, as this burns any pollutants on the way out of the exhaust port, but if the vacuum take of is moved to get a better idle (good trick) the pollutants will go up to n MOT fail.
I hope you don't have the cam timing wrong, it would be difficult to tell without strapping a couple of dial test indicators on the rocker and number 1 piston to accurately check.
The bottom line here is to be 100% certain on the results of each test you do, as if you throw too many variables into your diagnosis you will go round and round in circles. Where are you geographically?
Thanks Mark,
You are quite right that the co machine results can vary and I’m only using an old trusty Gunson gastester but I’ve found it to be fairly accurate across all the cars I’ve used it on but usually over reads by about 10% it isn’t liking the huge amount of vapour it’s ingesting on this car right now and goes out of calibration after a few minutes til I’ve dried it out..
There’s no black at tailpipe just co vapour and hc’s And plugs are showing lean
I’m certain the cam timing is right as I spent a long time dialling it in as I didn’t want a hiccup later..
I’ve tried ignition timing between 6-12 degrees and it makes little difference, timing mark doesn’t stray with the strobe at all so leads me to believe ignition must be ok as I’d expect wandering or a rich condition if it were spark side? The old engine had so much slack in its camchain that the timing wandered about 6degrees!
I checked the tdc marker and crank pulley mark while building the engine and was surprised that it’s actully spot on!
Do the lambdas still cycle if I run it on a non cat map so I can see what they are reading?
While doing the leak down test I checked for bubbles in the coolant and none were detected, I don’t have an hc coolant sniffer but my nose says it doesn’t smell of combustion gases and it’s not used any water in the 400 miles the engine has done although it does strangely seem to keep pressure at the expansion bottle even after a week of sitting (poss duff cap?) plugs although white from lean condition don’t show and sign of burning coolant and the tops of all the pistons have colour, none steam cleaned.
I’ve taken today off work to take a look as I have a horrid man flu, so I’m at the car, just cleaning the injectors then going to fit a spare plenum cover, fit a spare dizzy and hope..
Main concerns are-
Plugs look lean but I’ve no idea if it’s running lean all over or just at idle
On cold start there is a slight misfire, not like a whole cylinder down but fluffy which almost vanishes once warm
Weird sucking noise from maf/ inlet pipe
Way high emissions
Why the ecu isn’t throwing any codes on a cat map if it’s clealy not running right?
The car idles ok with a ‘very slight’ off beat, drives and accelerates ok but I’d hoped it would be a bit better with the new engine
I’m in Woking Surrey
All of the injection/ ignition components were used on the previous 3.9 engine and that ran rich no matter what I did..
You are quite right that the co machine results can vary and I’m only using an old trusty Gunson gastester but I’ve found it to be fairly accurate across all the cars I’ve used it on but usually over reads by about 10% it isn’t liking the huge amount of vapour it’s ingesting on this car right now and goes out of calibration after a few minutes til I’ve dried it out..
There’s no black at tailpipe just co vapour and hc’s And plugs are showing lean
I’m certain the cam timing is right as I spent a long time dialling it in as I didn’t want a hiccup later..
I’ve tried ignition timing between 6-12 degrees and it makes little difference, timing mark doesn’t stray with the strobe at all so leads me to believe ignition must be ok as I’d expect wandering or a rich condition if it were spark side? The old engine had so much slack in its camchain that the timing wandered about 6degrees!
I checked the tdc marker and crank pulley mark while building the engine and was surprised that it’s actully spot on!
Do the lambdas still cycle if I run it on a non cat map so I can see what they are reading?
While doing the leak down test I checked for bubbles in the coolant and none were detected, I don’t have an hc coolant sniffer but my nose says it doesn’t smell of combustion gases and it’s not used any water in the 400 miles the engine has done although it does strangely seem to keep pressure at the expansion bottle even after a week of sitting (poss duff cap?) plugs although white from lean condition don’t show and sign of burning coolant and the tops of all the pistons have colour, none steam cleaned.
I’ve taken today off work to take a look as I have a horrid man flu, so I’m at the car, just cleaning the injectors then going to fit a spare plenum cover, fit a spare dizzy and hope..
Main concerns are-
Plugs look lean but I’ve no idea if it’s running lean all over or just at idle
On cold start there is a slight misfire, not like a whole cylinder down but fluffy which almost vanishes once warm
Weird sucking noise from maf/ inlet pipe
Way high emissions
Why the ecu isn’t throwing any codes on a cat map if it’s clealy not running right?
The car idles ok with a ‘very slight’ off beat, drives and accelerates ok but I’d hoped it would be a bit better with the new engine
I’m in Woking Surrey
All of the injection/ ignition components were used on the previous 3.9 engine and that ran rich no matter what I did..
Thank you!
I didn’t quite get as far as testing the lambda signals.
I fitted a set of cleaned injectors with new filters and seals, a spare rather grubby looking plenum, yet another set of new plugs and it still seemed to run much the same but I decided to use it for the weekend and see what happened. Drove 7 miles home, weird sucking noise from inlet is gone, filled up with fuel, came out to take my daughter to youth club an hour later and it refused to start, backfiring and wouldn’t run... had to walk the 7miles back to my tools on sat, after a dig about I diagnosed a dead ignition amp, swapped it for a new lucas one and all good. Went out yesterday and it drove 15 miles still with a very slight miss at idle but really nicely once moving and enough power to hit a naughty top speed! Went to drive home and after a few miles it nearly died. Bad misses, backfire, no power and coolant level warning flashing... left it to cool down and coolant level was above where it should be but bubbles and gurgled a lot when I slowly opened the cap, managed to get it home but running sporadically good/rough to find it’s blown a hole in the rad. I’m waiting for a combustion leak tester to arrive but it seems I may well be on my second cracked block!....
I didn’t quite get as far as testing the lambda signals.
I fitted a set of cleaned injectors with new filters and seals, a spare rather grubby looking plenum, yet another set of new plugs and it still seemed to run much the same but I decided to use it for the weekend and see what happened. Drove 7 miles home, weird sucking noise from inlet is gone, filled up with fuel, came out to take my daughter to youth club an hour later and it refused to start, backfiring and wouldn’t run... had to walk the 7miles back to my tools on sat, after a dig about I diagnosed a dead ignition amp, swapped it for a new lucas one and all good. Went out yesterday and it drove 15 miles still with a very slight miss at idle but really nicely once moving and enough power to hit a naughty top speed! Went to drive home and after a few miles it nearly died. Bad misses, backfire, no power and coolant level warning flashing... left it to cool down and coolant level was above where it should be but bubbles and gurgled a lot when I slowly opened the cap, managed to get it home but running sporadically good/rough to find it’s blown a hole in the rad. I’m waiting for a combustion leak tester to arrive but it seems I may well be on my second cracked block!....
Indeed, a big ouch..
Block tester arrived yesterday and confirmed my fears, I tested it three times to be sure. First time at warming up idle, the fluid stayed blue, let it get fully up to temp then have it some revs for a few seconds and the next two tests turned the fluid yellow within a few seconds..
now wishing I’d had the block top hatted before I built it!.
I’d just like to thank everyone who took the time to impart me with their ideas and knowledge on the poor running symptoms and hopefully when it’s up and running again all will be well.
Block tester arrived yesterday and confirmed my fears, I tested it three times to be sure. First time at warming up idle, the fluid stayed blue, let it get fully up to temp then have it some revs for a few seconds and the next two tests turned the fluid yellow within a few seconds..
now wishing I’d had the block top hatted before I built it!.
I’d just like to thank everyone who took the time to impart me with their ideas and knowledge on the poor running symptoms and hopefully when it’s up and running again all will be well.
Thanks, from what I have read megasquirt is a good system but maybe all a bit too much fuss for me as I am not very good with any kind of technology and as the car is a 2.5 tonne range rover rather than a tvr I doubt I’ll see as much benefit.
Block is booked in at turner engineering to be top hat linered in a few weeks and will hopefully run properly when I get it all back together again!..
Block is booked in at turner engineering to be top hat linered in a few weeks and will hopefully run properly when I get it all back together again!..
Olas said:
Megasquirt allows you to calibrate it exactly how you want it. Messing around with resisitors is not an accurate approach.
Back in the room-- problem is the more parameters you have to fiddle with, the more time you will spend tweaking it to try and get it just right instead of simply driving and enjoying the car. The 14CUX is relatively simple on that front, although you do need the £200 moats Ostrich to make it programmable.Hi guys,
Just in case any of you nice people who tried to help were wondering I thought I should give you an update on the situation.
Thanks to covid it’s taken an eternity to get the block top hatted, built again and back in the car..
Mr Turner showed me a photo of the gaping crack in the block he discovered behind no.4 sleeve.
While apart I double checked the cam which seemed ok, heads also looked spot on although needed a clean as there was a lot of black carbon build up from its 500 mile run in period.
It’s all up and running again and other than it no longer has any coolant issues it’s still running just as sick as it was!.
It still has an obvious misfire from cold that quietens down after about 40 secs but even once fully warm still has an off beat miss and high emissions and un burnt fuel out the tail pipe.
The idle still shoots up to 2k from cold and takes longer than it should to settle to a steady idle and also when warm on the over run just below auto box lock up when I let my foot fully off the gas the revs drop quickly as I’d expect but after around 3 secs they bounce back up by 300rpm and it feels like it’s revving too high and pushing the car along?
Still feels like an air leak to me but I’m flummoxed for wherebit could be from!!
It drives ok with good midrange and (for an old rangie) flies up to 5.5k given a foot full.
The header temps checked from cold start up are around 350 degrees c for all cyls except 3&4 which seem to stay around 50% of the others until fully warm.
I’ve tested (and swapped for good measure) the fuel rail and injectors, tested ignition and swapped cap/ leads.
Plugs look very rich on the plug body with approx half the circumference of the white insulator on each plug black and the other half white?
I’ve tried 3 fuel maps- the cars correct 4.2 cat map, the 3.9 non cat map and the 4.2 non cat map with 2 separate ecus, used a spare air flow meter for the non cat map tests which I adjusted while running and none altered the misfire or emissions.
On all maps in rover gauge the idle valve shows fully closed or thereabouts until fully warm when it creeps up to 10% at most, air flow shows around 30% and throttle 5% lambdas show to be cycling although I forgot to look at the long term trim, short when hot had one bank adding 30% the other taking away 10%.
I’m something is causing a misfire which is throwing out the lambdas but I had hoped running the non cat map might make diagnosis simpler..
I’m now at my wits end and about to tear the damn thing apart and fit a different cam because I can’t think of anything else. Genuine 4.2 cams are NLA so I’m stuck with a choice of a crappy cheap one or attempting to choose another performance one in the hope it works with the engine spec.
if anyone can come up with any good ideas I’d really appreciate it!
Just in case any of you nice people who tried to help were wondering I thought I should give you an update on the situation.
Thanks to covid it’s taken an eternity to get the block top hatted, built again and back in the car..
Mr Turner showed me a photo of the gaping crack in the block he discovered behind no.4 sleeve.
While apart I double checked the cam which seemed ok, heads also looked spot on although needed a clean as there was a lot of black carbon build up from its 500 mile run in period.
It’s all up and running again and other than it no longer has any coolant issues it’s still running just as sick as it was!.
It still has an obvious misfire from cold that quietens down after about 40 secs but even once fully warm still has an off beat miss and high emissions and un burnt fuel out the tail pipe.
The idle still shoots up to 2k from cold and takes longer than it should to settle to a steady idle and also when warm on the over run just below auto box lock up when I let my foot fully off the gas the revs drop quickly as I’d expect but after around 3 secs they bounce back up by 300rpm and it feels like it’s revving too high and pushing the car along?
Still feels like an air leak to me but I’m flummoxed for wherebit could be from!!
It drives ok with good midrange and (for an old rangie) flies up to 5.5k given a foot full.
The header temps checked from cold start up are around 350 degrees c for all cyls except 3&4 which seem to stay around 50% of the others until fully warm.
I’ve tested (and swapped for good measure) the fuel rail and injectors, tested ignition and swapped cap/ leads.
Plugs look very rich on the plug body with approx half the circumference of the white insulator on each plug black and the other half white?
I’ve tried 3 fuel maps- the cars correct 4.2 cat map, the 3.9 non cat map and the 4.2 non cat map with 2 separate ecus, used a spare air flow meter for the non cat map tests which I adjusted while running and none altered the misfire or emissions.
On all maps in rover gauge the idle valve shows fully closed or thereabouts until fully warm when it creeps up to 10% at most, air flow shows around 30% and throttle 5% lambdas show to be cycling although I forgot to look at the long term trim, short when hot had one bank adding 30% the other taking away 10%.
I’m something is causing a misfire which is throwing out the lambdas but I had hoped running the non cat map might make diagnosis simpler..
I’m now at my wits end and about to tear the damn thing apart and fit a different cam because I can’t think of anything else. Genuine 4.2 cams are NLA so I’m stuck with a choice of a crappy cheap one or attempting to choose another performance one in the hope it works with the engine spec.
if anyone can come up with any good ideas I’d really appreciate it!
I forgot to say- I also checked the base idle which if done slowly I could get down to around 400 before it stalled but I set it to around 550, twas a little bouncy due to the miss but what surprised me was that It only had a gnats cock more than one turn left before the screw bottomed out. That seems like a tiny amount of air for an engine to run on??
I also pulled the throttle plate apart and fitted a new rubber seal on the shaft behind the linkage to cure the leak that the smoke test had shown and checked throttle plate closure.
I also read something on the web about blocking the afm flow to see if it affected idle so I slowly slid my hand across the front of it and at half way across the engine stalled, not entirely sure what that proves though..
I also pulled the throttle plate apart and fitted a new rubber seal on the shaft behind the linkage to cure the leak that the smoke test had shown and checked throttle plate closure.
I also read something on the web about blocking the afm flow to see if it affected idle so I slowly slid my hand across the front of it and at half way across the engine stalled, not entirely sure what that proves though..
The fact the idle is unstable and the stepper readings are so low with a almost closed base idle still screams air leak. Tried the old trick of spaying Easy start around the plenum joints to see if the idle changes? As for he plugs- they need some injector cleaner as white on one side and black on the other means the fuel atomisation is poor and its washing the plug clean on one side as it enters the combustion chamber. Considering the amount of time and effort you have put into this engine, Id be buying a few color tunes to compare combustion colours and intensity across different pots so you can really see what's going on. 8 would be nice as you can look at all the pots at the same time, although 4 would be enough so you can do one bank at a time.
Thanks guys.
Your input is appreciated!
I did try some neon spark testers and while I doubt they will show any variation in intensity they do show all pots getting a spark. The fact it runs worse cold and sounds very nearly right once warm led me away from a spark problem but knowing my luck it could just as well be..
All 8 plugs look much the same with only no. 7 looking ever so slightly red?
I’ll have a look around for colour tunes. I used to have one 30 years ago.
I did a compression test again and annoyingly there’s a bit of variation between cylinders but the two suspect ones are showing 170 psi so surely it can’t be a compression/ valve problem?
The one test I didn’t do on the fuel side was a flow rate check but I have some calibrated vessels now so I’ll try to rig them up in some kind of splash proof way at the weekend and check their flow and see what their spray pattern looks like.
I’ve taken the inlet manifold back off in the hope of finding signs of an air leak but other than slicing my index finger open on it there it looks to have been equally compressed with no obvious leak. In fact after the head/ block work I half expected the manifold to not fit properly but the bolts line up perfectly dead center to the holes which they never did before, they were a real cow to get in last time!
I’ll try to upload a pic of the plugs
Thanks again!
Your input is appreciated!
I did try some neon spark testers and while I doubt they will show any variation in intensity they do show all pots getting a spark. The fact it runs worse cold and sounds very nearly right once warm led me away from a spark problem but knowing my luck it could just as well be..
All 8 plugs look much the same with only no. 7 looking ever so slightly red?
I’ll have a look around for colour tunes. I used to have one 30 years ago.
I did a compression test again and annoyingly there’s a bit of variation between cylinders but the two suspect ones are showing 170 psi so surely it can’t be a compression/ valve problem?
The one test I didn’t do on the fuel side was a flow rate check but I have some calibrated vessels now so I’ll try to rig them up in some kind of splash proof way at the weekend and check their flow and see what their spray pattern looks like.
I’ve taken the inlet manifold back off in the hope of finding signs of an air leak but other than slicing my index finger open on it there it looks to have been equally compressed with no obvious leak. In fact after the head/ block work I half expected the manifold to not fit properly but the bolts line up perfectly dead center to the holes which they never did before, they were a real cow to get in last time!
I’ll try to upload a pic of the plugs
Thanks again!
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