Aftermarket Ecu warm up enrichment
Discussion
No worries on the email, when you weren't around for a while I was concerned as it was at the peak of the health scare so obviously wanted to make sure you were ok, very pleased to hear that you were and are in good health 
Without you we can't have quite so many robust discussions 
On the ecu thing, not upset in the slightest, nor to my knowledge have you upset anyone I know.
The about-turn is confusing though as the reason you cite for your car having OE levels of startup is that key-on prime, a feature missing (unless they have added it in since I last saw one) from the Haltech you link to. You mentioned that cars without that key-on prime exhibit "churning and churning nonsense" (your words) at startup, so I was just highlighting the fact that your ecu upgrade would be a downgrade in one notable area you regard so highly.
Without you we can't have quite so many robust discussions On the ecu thing, not upset in the slightest, nor to my knowledge have you upset anyone I know.
The about-turn is confusing though as the reason you cite for your car having OE levels of startup is that key-on prime, a feature missing (unless they have added it in since I last saw one) from the Haltech you link to. You mentioned that cars without that key-on prime exhibit "churning and churning nonsense" (your words) at startup, so I was just highlighting the fact that your ecu upgrade would be a downgrade in one notable area you regard so highly.
spitfire4v8 said:
No worries on the email, when you weren't around for a while I was concerned as it was at the peak of the health scare so obviously wanted to make sure you were ok, very pleased to hear that you were and are in good health Without you we can't have quite so many robust discussions
On the ecu thing, not upset in the slightest, nor to my knowledge have you upset anyone I know.
The about-turn is confusing though as the reason you cite for your car having OE levels of startup is that key-on prime, a feature missing (unless they have added it in since I last saw one) from the Haltech you link to. You mentioned that cars without that key-on prime exhibit "churning and churning nonsense" (your words) at startup, so I was just highlighting the fact that your ecu upgrade would be a downgrade in one notable area you regard so highly.
I think were seeing the typical forum based 'Selective Hearing' or more likely the 'Lost in Translation' factor here, this is no one's fault just the inevitable function of a discussion platform that omits natural human interactions on a face to face basis. Without you we can't have quite so many robust discussions On the ecu thing, not upset in the slightest, nor to my knowledge have you upset anyone I know.
The about-turn is confusing though as the reason you cite for your car having OE levels of startup is that key-on prime, a feature missing (unless they have added it in since I last saw one) from the Haltech you link to. You mentioned that cars without that key-on prime exhibit "churning and churning nonsense" (your words) at startup, so I was just highlighting the fact that your ecu upgrade would be a downgrade in one notable area you regard so highly.
Someone picks up on a couple of points they passionately disagree with, then in isolation and during a stressful time in all our lives these points get woven within their mind and eventually ferment into frustration causing misunderstandings. Piston Heads is just a platform for enthusiastic amateurs to share a passion for an old rather niche market hand assembled sports car with bags of charisma, but a not unjustified reputation for poor build quality and unreliably, as such we shouldn't let ourselves take any of it too seriously.
Ideas are exchanged and opinions shared, where this can sometimes goa little bit wrong is when people feel their expert status is challenged or their pride bruising fixed beliefs are being discussed from an alternative view point. Like real life a lot of this is about ego, put a bunch of boys in a room and you'll soon find a competitive environment develops as individuals jostle for alpha male status.
Lets celebrate the discussion and be accepting of different view points as every day is a school day and no body knows everything, even the experts. The wonderful thing about life is these is always something new to learn, and history teaches us time and time again challenging one's fixed beliefs is how we move forward and develop as human beings. New innovations appear on a daily basis and new theories appear all the time often debunking what was considered to be unshakeable fact for many years, progress can only come from those brave enough to challenge the status quo and a discussion should be the platform where such ideas can be explored and challenged with respect and tolerance.
I really don't think we should allow ourselves to get too boiled up over something like if fuel should be introduced before or during cranking, quite clearly there are differing opinions on this that stretch way beyond the tiny world of TVR, out there in the big wide world some have one belief and others have another on this topic. In the great scheme of things when we step back and look at it with pragmatism it really is laughably meaningless who gets to claim the 'I'm Right & Your Wrong Prize', and for no other reason than that ego boosting prize simply doesn't exist, and indeed was never even on the table.
Stay safe out there in these unsettling and unpredictable times.
Kind regards,
Dave
Zener said:
Noticed Link on your list Dave lots of the old school Ford guys round here are on Link ecu's and TB's with their 14 DOHC & Duratecs etc in Escorts etc, versatile kit at a good price apparently 
, one of these guys also runs a BOB Cosworth V6 motor on MS3 like you say sooo much choice nowadays , I even read somewhere of a guy that configured an OE BMW Siemens MS43 ECU to run on a tuned Ford V6 engine all do-able if you have the mapping software I guess and the BMW ecu is a very clever unit even though its getting on for 20 years old but can be picked up for £50 and insanely reliable as are many OE units GEMS,Siemens,Bosch etc etc
Its frustrating when MegaSquirt comes in for a bashing, I've studied the system and its abundantly clear MegaSquirt has endless potential, and when built properly can be far superior to some of the so called branded ECU internals I've seen, I've witnessed an autopsy of one of Canems' earlier breed of ECUs and had a walk through from the electronics engineer who conducted the review. The report was damning, basically the conclusion was the product was a hand solder hash up that broke so many rules it was actually a fire hazard. Quite clearly these early ECU were being hand assembled, and not very well either, later Canems ECU's have also been studied and are a world apart, benefiting from a quality robot soldered board and far superior assembly which fortunately is what I have now, but I feel sorry for anyone with one of those earlier examples that appear to have been build by David Hampshire in his shed at the bottom of his garden., one of these guys also runs a BOB Cosworth V6 motor on MS3 like you say sooo much choice nowadays , I even read somewhere of a guy that configured an OE BMW Siemens MS43 ECU to run on a tuned Ford V6 engine all do-able if you have the mapping software I guess and the BMW ecu is a very clever unit even though its getting on for 20 years old but can be picked up for £50 and insanely reliable as are many OE units GEMS,Siemens,Bosch etc etc Returning to MegaSquirt a mate of mine has a V12 E-type roadster running petrol & LPG all very effectively controlled by MS3, the LPG injectors are fired by a peak & hold injector driver board of his own design with a massive heat sink and the whole thing works really well.
He gave me a crash course on MS and what I really liked was just how controllable everything is, things like changing scaling of every single feature takes seconds and is completely up to you, this in contrast to the Canems system where you have to email David Hampshire for a small tweak. Unfortunately David's policy is to unilaterally ignore all incoming support request emails, unless you're reaching out to him as a potential new customer. The way I see it you either choose an ECU from a name brand manufacturer which must come complete with support, or you may as well just go MegaSquirt and use the forums, what is unacceptable is to buy a branded system like Canems only to find the support is not forthcoming, as there are no Canems self help forums you are left in a situation where you'd definitely be better off going MS.
Its a real shame David Hampshire has chosen to run his aftermarket engine management business like this, he didn't start out like that but just found himself in a situation where he simply couldn't cope with all the inbound technical support questions, clearly he didn't start with a clear business plan so the whole thing has had to evolve organically which is where the policy of 'ignoring customer emails' crept in. The Canems software is elegant in it's simplicity and as such there is huge potential for the product to be a great success, but the truth is you can't run an engine management business as a one man band.
David Hampshire needs to be the sales department, the manufacturing department, the marketing department, the accounts department ect ect ect, don't get me wrong plenty of people operate a business like that but they're seldom selling a technical product that demands a lot of end user support. Unfortunately what seems to have happened is as David Hampshire found he wasn't coping he simply shut down the technical support department, his business model shifted from the original idea of selling direct to end users to a dealer model who would be expected to take on the end user support function.
Poor initial business planning then sticking plaster solving the challenges you've found yourself with because you didn't plan in the first place is always going to leave you in a mess, if you then solve those challenges by adopting a policy of completely withdrawing customer support is hardly going to help you win you more customers, people talk and share there experiences and with the advent of the internet its super easy to share those experiences. When DH discovered he simply wasn't coping and the profits or his ego didn't support expanding his staff, the smart move would have been to create a Canems self help forum, he could then appoint some Canems key users and dealers with forum 'Moderator' and 'Super User' status and let that be his technical support platform/department.
Of course this is effectively the MegaSquirt model, the people behind MS must have worked out very early on providing end user support for such a technical product is a potential business imploding mine field, if David Hampshire of Canems has just looked at this before he started he would have been able to preempt the challenge and built the solution into his business model, instead it appears he blindly blundered into the technical support hole and chose to dig his way out simply by not answering calls and emails from paying customers who understandably expected proper levels of consumer support.
MegaSquirt suffers it's DIY reputation but the reality is if you need support at least someone will answer your question, if the choice is between a branded ECU like Canems where the support from the manufacturer is completely non-existent, and an open source system like MegaSquirt where you can at least reach out to literally thousands of people globally for a bit of help, then MegaSquirt wins out every time. Cleverly MegaSquirt also made their product very easy to configure so you actually need less of the hardware/software technical support in the first place, this flexibility and support network are game changing benefits people should keep in mind when choosing an aftermarket ECU.
Aftermarket engine management is a complex technical subject so the support aspect is critical, there's really no such thing as 'Plug & Play', and terms like 'Self Learning' are misleading too. For those just wanting to pay someone to fit an aftermarket ECU and have it all mapped to perfection from day one, ie the mythical 'Dive in Drive Out Installation', its critical that installation is of a very high standard using a quality made loom, automotive wiring best practice has been observed, and proper OEM quality sensors/control devices are used. Beware the installer who is able to advertise a highly competitive price by using no name Chinese made sensors, idle valves ect because these will soon cause you costly headaches.
As with anything its a case of 'Buyer Beware', a little bit of due diligence research will go a long way to ensure you end up with something that actually works as promised, remains reliable, and offers proper customer support!
ChimpOnGas said:
I think were seeing the typical forum based 'Selective Hearing' or more likely the 'Lost in Translation' factor here, this is no one's fault just the inevitable function of a discussion platform that omits natural human interactions on a face to face basis.
Someone picks up on a couple of points they passionately disagree with, then in isolation and during a stressful time in all our lives these points get woven within their mind and eventually ferment into frustration causing misunderstandings. Piston Heads is just a platform for enthusiastic amateurs to share a passion for an old rather niche market hand assembled sports car with bags of charisma, but a not unjustified reputation for poor build quality and unreliably, as such we shouldn't let ourselves take any of it too seriously.
Ideas are exchanged and opinions shared, where this can sometimes goa little bit wrong is when people feel their expert status is challenged or their pride bruising fixed beliefs are being discussed from an alternative view point. Like real life a lot of this is about ego, put a bunch of boys in a room and you'll soon find a competitive environment develops as individuals jostle for alpha male status.
Lets celebrate the discussion and be accepting of different view points as every day is a school day and no body knows everything, even the experts. The wonderful thing about life is these is always something new to learn, and history teaches us time and time again challenging one's fixed beliefs is how we move forward and develop as human beings. New innovations appear on a daily basis and new theories appear all the time often debunking what was considered to be unshakeable fact for many years, progress can only come from those brave enough to challenge the status quo and a discussion should be the platform where such ideas can be explored and challenged with respect and tolerance.
I really don't think we should allow ourselves to get too boiled up over something like if fuel should be introduced before or during cranking, quite clearly there are differing opinions on this that stretch way beyond the tiny world of TVR, out there in the big wide world some have one belief and others have another on this topic. In the great scheme of things when we step back and look at it with pragmatism it really is laughably meaningless who gets to claim the 'I'm Right & Your Wrong Prize', and for no other reason than that ego boosting prize simply doesn't exist, and indeed was never even on the table.
Stay safe out there in these unsettling and unpredictable times.
Kind regards,
Dave
I'm very sorry if I have bruised your pride/ego or suggested in any way that you aren't an expert, for that I apologise. You're right, put 20 car nuts in a room and you'll get 20 opinions on every subject - that's life Someone picks up on a couple of points they passionately disagree with, then in isolation and during a stressful time in all our lives these points get woven within their mind and eventually ferment into frustration causing misunderstandings. Piston Heads is just a platform for enthusiastic amateurs to share a passion for an old rather niche market hand assembled sports car with bags of charisma, but a not unjustified reputation for poor build quality and unreliably, as such we shouldn't let ourselves take any of it too seriously.
Ideas are exchanged and opinions shared, where this can sometimes goa little bit wrong is when people feel their expert status is challenged or their pride bruising fixed beliefs are being discussed from an alternative view point. Like real life a lot of this is about ego, put a bunch of boys in a room and you'll soon find a competitive environment develops as individuals jostle for alpha male status.
Lets celebrate the discussion and be accepting of different view points as every day is a school day and no body knows everything, even the experts. The wonderful thing about life is these is always something new to learn, and history teaches us time and time again challenging one's fixed beliefs is how we move forward and develop as human beings. New innovations appear on a daily basis and new theories appear all the time often debunking what was considered to be unshakeable fact for many years, progress can only come from those brave enough to challenge the status quo and a discussion should be the platform where such ideas can be explored and challenged with respect and tolerance.
I really don't think we should allow ourselves to get too boiled up over something like if fuel should be introduced before or during cranking, quite clearly there are differing opinions on this that stretch way beyond the tiny world of TVR, out there in the big wide world some have one belief and others have another on this topic. In the great scheme of things when we step back and look at it with pragmatism it really is laughably meaningless who gets to claim the 'I'm Right & Your Wrong Prize', and for no other reason than that ego boosting prize simply doesn't exist, and indeed was never even on the table.
Stay safe out there in these unsettling and unpredictable times.
Kind regards,
Dave
spitfire4v8 said:
I'm very sorry if I have bruised your pride/ego or suggested in any way that you aren't an expert, for that I apologise. You're right, put 20 car nuts in a room and you'll get 20 opinions on every subject - that's life
Its fine, seriously, no pride or ego damaged on my part; as a hapless but enthusiastic amateur I literally have nothing to prove, or offer, other than to stimulate a bit of discussion which after all is the lifeblood of this platform. However from your above response it seems possible you've read my message back to front, or at least reversed that message in your response I probably just need to accept only the paid professionals can lay claim to expert status, however sadly as I found out to my cost over the years, and even more recently, those who seek financial reward for working on our cars are not always the experts they profess to be. And for fear of any further any further misunderstanding I'm not including you in that group, indeed I have learned much from your posts and am grateful to you for the generous way you share your intellectual property which must have taken years to accrue. There's huge value in that knowledge as I'm sure you know, so your contributions to the TVR community on these pages are very welcome and commendable indeed.
My point and hope is nothing more sinister than we all remain open minded, discussions are, or at lest should be, a healthy platform to share knowledge, explore ideas and alternative opinions without allowing it to spill over into something else. Through the process of discussion we all learn and often a critical element of that process is to respectfully challenge the beliefs of others. A key skill in the noble art of debate is not to let those challenges and alternative opinions get under our skin, even if we passionately believe they are wrong, because if we allow ourselves to become rattled the power to make our own point immediately becomes eroded.
Challenge can be uncomfortable, but its actually a key productive ingredient of positive debate, as such it should be embraced. How we manage the challenge is always the measure of our debating skill, which like engine management is something we never stop leaning.
Belle427 said:
Megasquirt is a very steep learning curve and daunting at first but once you get familiar with the tuning software it's very user friendly.
The on road ve table auto tune seems to work well too.
Agreed, bit too many settings for some but its got a lot to cater for Rotary & 2 Stroke engines for example , Tunerstudio for tuning software is just superb and keeps getting better , must admit not used it for sometime now last time I used the lappy in the car was to alter some PID setting for the 02 wide-band you know you read something new and think I'll have a go with that The on road ve table auto tune seems to work well too.
mine only looks after low to mid speed/load fueling because my engine will change from mild shunting (to be expected) to rather aggressive with the evening cool air 
closed loop fuel control keeps this at bay I couldn't run permanent open loop due to this tantrum behavior It would drive me nuts 
Edited by Zener on Friday 10th July 12:49
Zener said:
Belle427 said:
Megasquirt is a very steep learning curve and daunting at first but once you get familiar with the tuning software it's very user friendly.
The on road ve table auto tune seems to work well too.
Agreed, bit too many settings for some but its got a lot to cater for Rotary & 2 Stroke engines for example , Tunerstudio for tuning software is just superb and keeps getting better , must admit not used it for sometime now last time I used the lappy in the car was to alter some PID setting for the 02 wide-band you know you read something new and think I'll have a go with that The on road ve table auto tune seems to work well too.
mine only looks after low to mid speed/load fueling because my engine will change from mild shunting (to be expected) to rather aggressive with the evening cool air closed loop fuel control keeps this at bay I couldn't run permanent open loop due to this tantrum behavior It would drive me nuts Edited by Zener on Friday 10th July 12:49
Seems mine behaves much better at low speeds with around 18 degrees maximum here.
Yeh tried just about everything less timing and fat fueling its not that bad considering I have not made things easier TBH no trumpets big duration cam etc , the trade off was worth it I live rural so dont need to worry about town stuff its only trailing throttle and very light load soon as you hit the gas even driving though the dreaded 1800/2100 zone its a pussy cat
less timing and fat fueling its not that bad considering I have not made things easier TBH no trumpets big duration cam etc , the trade off was worth it I live rural so dont need to worry about town stuff its only trailing throttle and very light load soon as you hit the gas even driving though the dreaded 1800/2100 zone its a pussy cat Gassing Station | Chimaera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff