Injector Upgrades - The Vectra Injector Mod is Dead!
Discussion
The Bosch 0 280 156 045 injector described at the start of this thread by ChimpOnGas is an EV 6 generation, so I wondered if there were any other options worth considering.
Given that the latest generation of Bosh injectors are referred to as EV 14, I decided to look for an equivalent injector part number.
The spec sheet linked below provides dimensional and flow details on the EV 14 injectors.
https://webshop.swindonpowertrain.com/image/catalo...
Looking at the standard ERR722 injectors, you will note from the image below, the length between the O Ring shoulders is around 61mm
The EV 14 Long injector has the same distance between O Rings as the ERR722 injector - check the spec sheet above and image below for these details.
The 0 280 158 107 injector flow rate is the same as standard ERR722 injector and is a single conical spray, so appears to be a good option for those wishing to improve the way their engine runs.
Some of the other EV 14 injectors are twin cone spray, so may be more appropriate for 4 valve cylinders.
Given that the latest generation of Bosh injectors are referred to as EV 14, I decided to look for an equivalent injector part number.
The spec sheet linked below provides dimensional and flow details on the EV 14 injectors.
https://webshop.swindonpowertrain.com/image/catalo...
Looking at the standard ERR722 injectors, you will note from the image below, the length between the O Ring shoulders is around 61mm
The EV 14 Long injector has the same distance between O Rings as the ERR722 injector - check the spec sheet above and image below for these details.
The 0 280 158 107 injector flow rate is the same as standard ERR722 injector and is a single conical spray, so appears to be a good option for those wishing to improve the way their engine runs.
Some of the other EV 14 injectors are twin cone spray, so may be more appropriate for 4 valve cylinders.
Hugh-K said:
The Bosch 0 280 156 045 injector described at the start of this thread by ChimpOnGas is an EV 6 generation, so I wondered if there were any other options worth considering.
Given that the latest generation of Bosh injectors are referred to as EV 14, I decided to look for an equivalent injector part number.
The spec sheet linked below provides dimensional and flow details on the EV 14 injectors.
https://webshop.swindonpowertrain.com/image/catalo...
Looking at the standard ERR722 injectors, you will note from the image below, the length between the O Ring shoulders is around 61mm
The EV 14 Long injector has the same distance between O Rings as the ERR722 injector - check the spec sheet above and image below for these details.
The 0 280 158 107 injector flow rate is the same as standard ERR722 injector and is a single conical spray, so appears to be a good option for those wishing to improve the way their engine runs.
Some of the other EV 14 injectors are twin cone spray, so may be more appropriate for 4 valve cylinders.
Hi Hugh - that's very useful .... But my question would then be to get an upgrade on the standard injectors (and I'm thinking flow rate capacity) without going bananas - would these be it? Given that the latest generation of Bosh injectors are referred to as EV 14, I decided to look for an equivalent injector part number.
The spec sheet linked below provides dimensional and flow details on the EV 14 injectors.
https://webshop.swindonpowertrain.com/image/catalo...
Looking at the standard ERR722 injectors, you will note from the image below, the length between the O Ring shoulders is around 61mm
The EV 14 Long injector has the same distance between O Rings as the ERR722 injector - check the spec sheet above and image below for these details.
The 0 280 158 107 injector flow rate is the same as standard ERR722 injector and is a single conical spray, so appears to be a good option for those wishing to improve the way their engine runs.
Some of the other EV 14 injectors are twin cone spray, so may be more appropriate for 4 valve cylinders.
EV 14 EL, 237 g/min n-heptane
Order number 0 280 158 116
I am absolutely no authority on this, but I do have a question of logic.
The original post cites the flow rate of the original injectors being 200cc @ 3bar
The Vectra injectors at 250cc
Then the Bosch at 208.9cc
Then Hugh's suggestion is at 219cc, and MadMark's at 237g/347cc. Have I got that right?
I don't know if that is max flow rate, or whether an injector that measures a higher flow rate at 3bar would basically push too much fuel into the cylinder.
Does it make sense to stay as close as possible to the original flow rate?
Therefore the only benefit you derive from changing injectors is a potentially better spray pattern for better atomisation and therefore burn efficiency (as well as a newer and cleaner item that theoretically should work better). Maybe also reducing blowback issues?
The original post cites the flow rate of the original injectors being 200cc @ 3bar
The Vectra injectors at 250cc
Then the Bosch at 208.9cc
Then Hugh's suggestion is at 219cc, and MadMark's at 237g/347cc. Have I got that right?
I don't know if that is max flow rate, or whether an injector that measures a higher flow rate at 3bar would basically push too much fuel into the cylinder.
Does it make sense to stay as close as possible to the original flow rate?
Therefore the only benefit you derive from changing injectors is a potentially better spray pattern for better atomisation and therefore burn efficiency (as well as a newer and cleaner item that theoretically should work better). Maybe also reducing blowback issues?
PabloGee said:
I am absolutely no authority on this, but I do have a question of logic.
The original post cites the flow rate of the original injectors being 200cc @ 3bar
The Vectra injectors at 250cc
Then the Bosch at 208.9cc
Then Hugh's suggestion is at 219cc, and MadMark's at 237g/347cc. Have I got that right?
I don't know if that is max flow rate, or whether an injector that measures a higher flow rate at 3bar would basically push too much fuel into the cylinder.
Does it make sense to stay as close as possible to the original flow rate?
Therefore the only benefit you derive from changing injectors is a potentially better spray pattern for better atomisation and therefore burn efficiency (as well as a newer and cleaner item that theoretically should work better). Maybe also reducing blowback issues?
Hi Pablo - Normally injectors are quoted as having a maximum flow rate and most tuners try and stay a reasonable margin under the maximum flow rate, which you can increase with fuel pressure, up to a point. Then there is the duty cycle or pulse speed of the injector to consider too. More revs equals more required pulses per second etc. The original post cites the flow rate of the original injectors being 200cc @ 3bar
The Vectra injectors at 250cc
Then the Bosch at 208.9cc
Then Hugh's suggestion is at 219cc, and MadMark's at 237g/347cc. Have I got that right?
I don't know if that is max flow rate, or whether an injector that measures a higher flow rate at 3bar would basically push too much fuel into the cylinder.
Does it make sense to stay as close as possible to the original flow rate?
Therefore the only benefit you derive from changing injectors is a potentially better spray pattern for better atomisation and therefore burn efficiency (as well as a newer and cleaner item that theoretically should work better). Maybe also reducing blowback issues?
What I'm looking for is merely a little extra "headroom" in their capacity if I'm buying new ones, but that could be something like 20-30% over standard. That's to allow for a little more n/a gas flow if I can generate it in future.
Thanks for the comments guy's
The 0 280 156 045 EV 6 injector suggested by ChimpOnGas and the 0 280 158 107 EV 14 injector flow rates are both described by Bosch in terms of their flow rate, they are both identical at 150 g/min with n-heptane.
The Bosch document I linked to above and here again below, helpfully also describes the petrol flow rate as 219 cm3 - (Bosch normally do not provide this information). https://webshop.swindonpowertrain.com/image/catalo...
ERR722 is a Land Rover part number, the Lucas part number is D1830GA.
There are no manufacturer declared flow rates for the ERR722 / D1830GA injectors that I can find, but they are generally referred to as 200cc/min, so the above newer design injectors may not be absolutely an equivalent, however most fuels appear to have Ethanol in them now, Ethanol requires 30% more flow to achieve the same air/fuel ratio, so adding a little more fuel flow should give the ECU less work to do to trim the Air/fuel ratio than previous fuels that has no Ethanol.
The 0 280 156 045 EV 6 injector suggested by ChimpOnGas and the 0 280 158 107 EV 14 injector flow rates are both described by Bosch in terms of their flow rate, they are both identical at 150 g/min with n-heptane.
The Bosch document I linked to above and here again below, helpfully also describes the petrol flow rate as 219 cm3 - (Bosch normally do not provide this information). https://webshop.swindonpowertrain.com/image/catalo...
ERR722 is a Land Rover part number, the Lucas part number is D1830GA.
There are no manufacturer declared flow rates for the ERR722 / D1830GA injectors that I can find, but they are generally referred to as 200cc/min, so the above newer design injectors may not be absolutely an equivalent, however most fuels appear to have Ethanol in them now, Ethanol requires 30% more flow to achieve the same air/fuel ratio, so adding a little more fuel flow should give the ECU less work to do to trim the Air/fuel ratio than previous fuels that has no Ethanol.
Responding to MadMark's question.
The 0 280 158 116 injector also has equivalent dimensions to the ERR722 injector with a Flow rate/min 237 g n-heptane / 347 cc/min petrol, so is a significan flow rate jump, but no problem for you with an aftermarket ECU.
To put this in context, I run 1000cc/min injectors in another car and have run 2200cc/min injectors with only slight roughness in idle on the same car, so these are all very conservative flow rates and would not be a compromise on idle or any other RPM.
Worthwhile noting that this injector has a two cone spray.
The 0 280 158 116 injector also has equivalent dimensions to the ERR722 injector with a Flow rate/min 237 g n-heptane / 347 cc/min petrol, so is a significan flow rate jump, but no problem for you with an aftermarket ECU.
To put this in context, I run 1000cc/min injectors in another car and have run 2200cc/min injectors with only slight roughness in idle on the same car, so these are all very conservative flow rates and would not be a compromise on idle or any other RPM.
Worthwhile noting that this injector has a two cone spray.
Edited by Hugh-K on Friday 2nd February 14:41
Edited by Hugh-K on Friday 2nd February 14:42
Isn't it just easier to run it on Shell V Power than to mess around trying to find injectors that spray more fuel, or ECU's that can detect how much ethanol is in the fuel. (Up to 10% is normal unleaded in the UK) The standard old Land Rover ECU used by TVR certainly cannot do that.
This is what a company selling upgraded injectors say:
"Buy our upgraded injectors today and you will have loads more power from your 1950s designed 2 valves per cylinder, old, high mileage, port fuel injected Rover V8, with it's ancient ECU".
Oh no wait a minute.....this is what they actually say:
"ROVER V8 BOSCH FUEL INJECTOR UPGRADE SET
Upgrade your old fuel injectors to modern Bosch 4-hole injectors – with higher flow rate and better fuel atomisation.
Complete set of new Bosch fuel injectors for Rover V8. Available with flow-rates of 215cc/min up to approx. 400cc/min. Please enquire with your performance requirements & engine specification and we will be able to advise on the ideal flow-rate for your application.
Ideal for Rover V8 owners carrying out performance upgrades (e.g.: camshaft, cylinder heads, programmable EMS, forced induction, throttle-bodies, etc). Improved atomisation of more modern 4-hole design also improves idle quality.
Will usually require an ECU re-calibration (a.k.a.: remap) to suit higher flow rates.
Also available with hose-tail fittings to fit earlier Rover V8 engines, when converting from early low impedance injectors to modern high impedance injectors. Please enquire."
(https://www.lloydspecialistdevelopments.co.uk/products-upgrades/rover-v8-engine-tuning/rover-v8-bosch-fuel-injector-upgrade-set/)
So, unless you are upgrading the camshaft, cylinder heads, throttle bodies, adding a turbo or supercharger and fitting programmable EMS, then, what is the point?
This is what a company selling upgraded injectors say:
"Buy our upgraded injectors today and you will have loads more power from your 1950s designed 2 valves per cylinder, old, high mileage, port fuel injected Rover V8, with it's ancient ECU".
Oh no wait a minute.....this is what they actually say:
"ROVER V8 BOSCH FUEL INJECTOR UPGRADE SET
Upgrade your old fuel injectors to modern Bosch 4-hole injectors – with higher flow rate and better fuel atomisation.
Complete set of new Bosch fuel injectors for Rover V8. Available with flow-rates of 215cc/min up to approx. 400cc/min. Please enquire with your performance requirements & engine specification and we will be able to advise on the ideal flow-rate for your application.
Ideal for Rover V8 owners carrying out performance upgrades (e.g.: camshaft, cylinder heads, programmable EMS, forced induction, throttle-bodies, etc). Improved atomisation of more modern 4-hole design also improves idle quality.
Will usually require an ECU re-calibration (a.k.a.: remap) to suit higher flow rates.
Also available with hose-tail fittings to fit earlier Rover V8 engines, when converting from early low impedance injectors to modern high impedance injectors. Please enquire."
(https://www.lloydspecialistdevelopments.co.uk/products-upgrades/rover-v8-engine-tuning/rover-v8-bosch-fuel-injector-upgrade-set/)
So, unless you are upgrading the camshaft, cylinder heads, throttle bodies, adding a turbo or supercharger and fitting programmable EMS, then, what is the point?
Edited by LucyP on Friday 2nd February 15:22
Unless they are broken, just leave it. Far more problems will be caused from messing about with it, putting in injectors that were not designed for the car.
It's a classic car now. Enjoy it for what it is. It isn't fast and it doesn't handle by today's standards. Keep it as it is, unless it breaks and you are forced to find an alternative part.
Messing about is what kids used to do before they were old enough to know better, or had better things to spend their money on, with Fiestas, Corsas, Saxos etc. before kids stopped being interested in cars and just saw them as another "mobility solution".
Having their money relieved from them buying "25 bhp extra if you replace the standard air filter with this one" and all that nonsense, or buying polish at £100 a tin, for a 10 year old car that has 5 previous owners, all of whom had just put it through the car wash, which wasn't going to be improved by overpriced polish.
The Rover V8 isn't direct injection. It doesn't rev. It doesn't run crazy fuel pressures. It doesn't have a trick ECU. It doesn't have a turbo. It runs basic stuff. It doesn't need injectors that do anything clever. The Lucus 14CUX wasn't developed after 1995. That is nearly 30 years ago.
Putting injectors designed for a current direct injection engine with all the tricks to get power, fuel economy and emissions into a system from the early 90's strapped to an engine from the 1950s is a waste of time and money.
It's a classic car now. Enjoy it for what it is. It isn't fast and it doesn't handle by today's standards. Keep it as it is, unless it breaks and you are forced to find an alternative part.
Messing about is what kids used to do before they were old enough to know better, or had better things to spend their money on, with Fiestas, Corsas, Saxos etc. before kids stopped being interested in cars and just saw them as another "mobility solution".
Having their money relieved from them buying "25 bhp extra if you replace the standard air filter with this one" and all that nonsense, or buying polish at £100 a tin, for a 10 year old car that has 5 previous owners, all of whom had just put it through the car wash, which wasn't going to be improved by overpriced polish.
The Rover V8 isn't direct injection. It doesn't rev. It doesn't run crazy fuel pressures. It doesn't have a trick ECU. It doesn't have a turbo. It runs basic stuff. It doesn't need injectors that do anything clever. The Lucus 14CUX wasn't developed after 1995. That is nearly 30 years ago.
Putting injectors designed for a current direct injection engine with all the tricks to get power, fuel economy and emissions into a system from the early 90's strapped to an engine from the 1950s is a waste of time and money.
Edited by LucyP on Friday 2nd February 16:59
That’s why you’ll never get Tvr owners, we like wasting money and time on our cars.
Its called a hobby.
What’s your hobbies Lucy as it sure ain’t Tvr cars though you seem to spend plenty of your time deriding Tvr cars.
You are aware this is a Tvr appreciation page?
What’s it to you if people want to experiment.
I can only assume you get off on being a dick and enjoy the attention or you had a very bad experience with TVR that’s effecting you to this day.
If it’s the first just stop being a dick.
If it’s the later tell us about it and maybe we can help you buy a good Tvr.
If you have nothing but bad vibes for Tvr cars wouldn’t it be more healthy to pick a forum or car you do like and go and be more positive over there.
Im genuinely interested in what drives your responses when they often sound so full of contempt especially towards the cars.
Why if you feel this way do you waste your time here because you must understand most people won’t share your views which often just sound caustic and barbed.
Are you trying to single handedly shut every thread down with your earth shattering murmurings. Does your hatred reach that far!
Tvr have fought against the tide for decades and that very much includes the people who own them and it’s harder than ever to own one so your constant negative attitude is not what we want to hear.
We know already me old mate. We’ve heard it all before yet there are better Tvr cars driving around now than ever before.
My injectors were replaced as part of an Ecu package and indeed the car fires crisper than ever and often returns 30 mpg and including iridium plugs on a 6 grade the cars more rapid with a perfect plug colour. Sooted plugs are a thing of the past if you just stick 6’s in. Unless your tracking it that is
Small percentages add up to 20% if you do enough of it.
Many of my Tvr mates had cars with closer to 360 Bhp out of this old engine and a very different car to standard.
It’s always been about development. That’s largely what this site stands for.
Now you might consider these developments not worthy but that’s just your opinion.
Do yourself a favour and show up to a Tvr day out or track day and have a ride in one of those cars. Trackdays attract the wealthy and insane in equal measure and often some of the best developed cars are at track days.
Makes sense as most track users don’t entertain breaking down and have fully prepared cars.
Take a standard 450 and put it against a developed one and there will be a difference I can assure you.
Now come on “ let’s start being more friendly”
You only live once.
Its called a hobby.
What’s your hobbies Lucy as it sure ain’t Tvr cars though you seem to spend plenty of your time deriding Tvr cars.
You are aware this is a Tvr appreciation page?
What’s it to you if people want to experiment.
I can only assume you get off on being a dick and enjoy the attention or you had a very bad experience with TVR that’s effecting you to this day.
If it’s the first just stop being a dick.
If it’s the later tell us about it and maybe we can help you buy a good Tvr.
If you have nothing but bad vibes for Tvr cars wouldn’t it be more healthy to pick a forum or car you do like and go and be more positive over there.
Im genuinely interested in what drives your responses when they often sound so full of contempt especially towards the cars.
Why if you feel this way do you waste your time here because you must understand most people won’t share your views which often just sound caustic and barbed.
Are you trying to single handedly shut every thread down with your earth shattering murmurings. Does your hatred reach that far!
Tvr have fought against the tide for decades and that very much includes the people who own them and it’s harder than ever to own one so your constant negative attitude is not what we want to hear.
We know already me old mate. We’ve heard it all before yet there are better Tvr cars driving around now than ever before.
My injectors were replaced as part of an Ecu package and indeed the car fires crisper than ever and often returns 30 mpg and including iridium plugs on a 6 grade the cars more rapid with a perfect plug colour. Sooted plugs are a thing of the past if you just stick 6’s in. Unless your tracking it that is
Small percentages add up to 20% if you do enough of it.
Many of my Tvr mates had cars with closer to 360 Bhp out of this old engine and a very different car to standard.
It’s always been about development. That’s largely what this site stands for.
Now you might consider these developments not worthy but that’s just your opinion.
Do yourself a favour and show up to a Tvr day out or track day and have a ride in one of those cars. Trackdays attract the wealthy and insane in equal measure and often some of the best developed cars are at track days.
Makes sense as most track users don’t entertain breaking down and have fully prepared cars.
Take a standard 450 and put it against a developed one and there will be a difference I can assure you.
Now come on “ let’s start being more friendly”
You only live once.
Edited by Classic Chim on Friday 2nd February 18:20
.
"Buy our upgraded injectors today and you will have loads more power from your 1950s designed 2 valves per cylinder, old, high mileage, port fuel injected Rover V8, with it's ancient ECU"
[/quote] You do realise that the most powerful car engines in the world have at least 4 of those attributes right? inc thousands of HP
Edited by LucyP on Friday 2nd February 15:22
[/quote] You do realise that the most powerful car engines in the world have at least 4 of those attributes right? inc thousands of HP
Edited by Sardonicus on Friday 2nd February 22:05
But if people get pleasure from wasting their money that’s their prerogative right?
You are not hear after all these years to put us straight are you.
I must admit I’m touched by your concern and charity.
Luckily and before the country became very grey there were thousands and thousands of people who purchased Tvr from new and by gosh they still buy em and still restore or care for them and often for many years.
A total waste of time and money but boy so much fun.
You forgot about that bit.
You are not hear after all these years to put us straight are you.
I must admit I’m touched by your concern and charity.
Luckily and before the country became very grey there were thousands and thousands of people who purchased Tvr from new and by gosh they still buy em and still restore or care for them and often for many years.
A total waste of time and money but boy so much fun.
You forgot about that bit.
LucyP said:
But it stops a lot of people from wasting their money.
Hi Lucy,You call it "wasting", I call it "resto modding". Essentially we're just making our old cars better. More reliable, more efficient, more powerful. Even extending their lives far beyond what they were originally designed for ....
You see I bought my £20k car as a toy. A completely whimsical purchase, just because I was bored and fancied one! It makes me feel warm and fuzzy! So what I have spent so far on rectifying faults and what I will no doubt spend upgrading in the future, is completely irrelevant.
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