Dangerous cars?
Discussion
Not too keen on some of the modern day driver aids (?) myself, maybe I am a bit old fashioned.
I have never driven a car with ABS that I felt was set up correctly for tearing about but many that were perfect for going down to Tescos.
Traction control, down to the driver I'm afraid, if you cannot read road conditions and adjust accordingly then you have no business driving a powerful rear wheel drive car.
Seat belts, mine seem to work fine, hope I never get to find out if they work when needed – how do you ever know if they are going to work on any car?
Only look at the Speedo when I spot a Gatso, works most of the time.
Air bag, suspect this one is missing more from the point of view of economics rather than it detracting from the driving experience.
I do not regard my Chim as dangerous, my only real concern (and this is only my opinion before someone goes into a hormonal strop) with these cars is someone else running into me in it. I genuinely would prefer to be somewhere else at the time. I saw a Griff (would not expect Chim to be any better or worse) dragged into a garage a while back that had had a relatively small rear end shunt, it was a bit of a mess to say the least. The car that ran into it (Fiat Punto for God’s sake) was relatively ok; I remember thinking at the time that even a rusty metal car would have done a lot better. You pay a price for everything, this is the price you pay to save weight and increase performance.
I would not take Clarkson too seriously, there is no question about his knowledge of cars but remember he is trying to combine comedy with it to keep everyone happy. You have obviously voted with your feet as they say and you cannot be any fairer than that. For the record I do not think they are practical to run as a main car either.
By the way you mentioned Clarkson, you're not the "Stig" are you?
Ivan
I have never driven a car with ABS that I felt was set up correctly for tearing about but many that were perfect for going down to Tescos.
Traction control, down to the driver I'm afraid, if you cannot read road conditions and adjust accordingly then you have no business driving a powerful rear wheel drive car.
Seat belts, mine seem to work fine, hope I never get to find out if they work when needed – how do you ever know if they are going to work on any car?
Only look at the Speedo when I spot a Gatso, works most of the time.
Air bag, suspect this one is missing more from the point of view of economics rather than it detracting from the driving experience.
I do not regard my Chim as dangerous, my only real concern (and this is only my opinion before someone goes into a hormonal strop) with these cars is someone else running into me in it. I genuinely would prefer to be somewhere else at the time. I saw a Griff (would not expect Chim to be any better or worse) dragged into a garage a while back that had had a relatively small rear end shunt, it was a bit of a mess to say the least. The car that ran into it (Fiat Punto for God’s sake) was relatively ok; I remember thinking at the time that even a rusty metal car would have done a lot better. You pay a price for everything, this is the price you pay to save weight and increase performance.
I would not take Clarkson too seriously, there is no question about his knowledge of cars but remember he is trying to combine comedy with it to keep everyone happy. You have obviously voted with your feet as they say and you cannot be any fairer than that. For the record I do not think they are practical to run as a main car either.
By the way you mentioned Clarkson, you're not the "Stig" are you?
Ivan
If you think Tivs are dangerous you should see this thing!
www.marineturbine.com/superbike/
Turbine powered motorcycle
Over 300hp 425ft/lbs torque
Estimated Top Speed: 250 mph (for those brave/daft enough)
1/4 Mile: 9.80 @ 160 mph (for those who can hang on)
0-227 mph in 15.0 sec. (hmmmmm..... )
Price - a mere $185,000
www.marineturbine.com/superbike/
Turbine powered motorcycle
Over 300hp 425ft/lbs torque
Estimated Top Speed: 250 mph (for those brave/daft enough)
1/4 Mile: 9.80 @ 160 mph (for those who can hang on)
0-227 mph in 15.0 sec. (hmmmmm..... )
Price - a mere $185,000
Thanks for all the views, pretty much what I expected. Maybe in the words of comedy Clarkson I am too g*y and not cut out for TVR ownership! I do however feel that many of these arguments place a lot of responsibility on the driver being good and careful - and drivers are not infallible (insurance group 20?). At the end of the day no matter how good you are in your back to basics car ( agree with above post) when some n*b in a Vectra ploughs into you, you might wish for side impact protection etc.
I guess I better start saving for a very fast car with safety features – which in some way sums up the argument – For £13,500 I can’t get a car that fast or cool with airbags!
By the way this is a fantastic forum and despite not having a TVR any more I still regularly read the posts!
Am I the Stig? - no - if I was don't think I would be scared of a Tvr....
cheers
I guess I better start saving for a very fast car with safety features – which in some way sums up the argument – For £13,500 I can’t get a car that fast or cool with airbags!
By the way this is a fantastic forum and despite not having a TVR any more I still regularly read the posts!
Am I the Stig? - no - if I was don't think I would be scared of a Tvr....
cheers
p7ulg said: Could you imagine how fast people would drive if TVRs had traction control.
I don't have to. I experimented with the system on a sprint in the pouring rain. Drove like a nutter with the foot flat to the floor and the TC kept me on the course. Then drove normally... and was 5 seconds faster which is eons.... The reason is that driving correctly keeps the car balanced and under better control so that it goes faster and the TC doesn't come in so much. Moral of this story is that TC is no substitute for good driving technique and keeping the car balanced.
As far as I know only three TVRs including mine have had the Race Logic system fitted: two Cerberas were the other two cars.
Steve
So why so negative about ABS/Stability Control?
Because nothing is fool proof and if the car is doing things then you don't learn. I have TC on the 520 because the car is an animal (200 bhp more than a Griff 500 at 6500 revs animal) and when sprinting it is easy to go over the edge and the TC helps me recover the situation. It does not absolve me of the reponsibility of driving the car correctly.
Because on nearly all road cars it is setup so that it comes in well before the wheels lock and therefore you cannot achieve the best braking performance. All you can do is hit them as hard as you can and hope. There are times whn that is good but others where it will contribute to the crash as you don't have other options.
Because most TVR accidents are caused by rear wheels overtaking the front and then you are a passenger with ABS.
Because I have more damage limitation options should everything goes pearshaped. Lock the wheels to guide the car into a sideways impact and so on.
As from traction control... go buy it. No one does so it can't be that important. As for stability control... If I want to drive fast I need to make the car unstable to trail brake into corners. All that stability control does is say nooooo you can't do that. Unfortunately I don't know when that is going to happen. So while I have the car set up to do what I want, the stability control comes in and says no and the car looses it. I don't know if the feedback I am getting is me driving the car or the computer trying to guess what I want and applying it.
Again, there is no substitute for good driving tuition. I also get my kicks on the circuit and this does calm me down on public roads which is a good thing for all concerned.
If you want the Gizmos go buy an SLK. Or a Scooby. You won't learn anything about driving a high performance car though.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
The only gizmos you get on a Scooby are the ABS & the Airbags. The ABS is one of the best I've used, as it only seems to come on after you've momentarily locked the brakes. Would still like an on/off switch though. Unless you count 4WD & LSDs as gizmos..
shpub said:
If you want the Gizmos go buy an SLK. Or a Scooby.
Car can clearly be made safer without denting the driving experience by fitting rollbar, reinforcing the seat mounts. If there was a sensible option for improving side impact strength I'd consider it. Have been told that rear suspension can deform so that the wheel gets shoved into the cabin which doesn't sound great. No idea if there is any truth in this.
My limited (thank God) experience of destroying GRP suggests that it is strong and absorbs lots of energy. Came off better than the car I ... uhm ... twatted.
My limited (thank God) experience of destroying GRP suggests that it is strong and absorbs lots of energy. Came off better than the car I ... uhm ... twatted.
CraigAlsop said:The only gizmos you get on a Scooby are the ABS & the Airbags. The ABS is one of the best I've used, as it only seems to come on after you've momentarily locked the brakes. Would still like an on/off switch though. Unless you count 4WD & LSDs as gizmos..
shpub said:
If you want the Gizmos go buy an SLK. Or a Scooby.
Whoops I meant an EVO VI with yaw control etc. Have seen Scoobies roll on track days becaus ethe owners seem to forgotten that even Scottie couldna change the laws of physics, Captain
Steve
Maca said: "For £13,500 I can’t get a car that fast or cool with airbags!"
not essentially true...though it depends on your definition of cool...eye of the beholder etc
For £1,500 you can have my P reg Citroen 1.9TD. Its got an airbag and is serious, oh you meant cool and not uncool... shame - anyone willing to take it off my hands for £1,500 - its only got 158K miles on it....
Cheers,
Paul
Yeah they seem to have 2 ways you can drive them:
shpub said: Have seen Scoobies roll on track days becaus ethe owners seem to forgotten that even Scottie couldna change the laws of physics, Captain
Steve
1/They're slightly understeery to neutral if you drive them up to a certain point (which feels like you can't drive it any faster without sliding off the road)
2/Driven 15% faster they will oversteer beautifully if you do some left foot braking into the corner & come back on the power.
There is a speed gap between these 2 modes of driving, which usually keeps inexperienced drivers out of trouble, but occasionally someone driving in mode 1/ will accidentally cross into mode 2/ by braking/lifting off mid-corner, and find that they don't know what to do next & have one of those big ooops moments
Totally practical as well as far as I am concerned, can carry my girlfriend, her dog and me inside car, can get my mountain bike and loads more in the boot, how practical do you want?
Find my Chimaera almost impossible to spin, the brakes work just fine and the steering is perfect (Non PAS).
Your supposed to drive within the road conditions, not foot to the floor everywhere. I've driven a car with ABS and didn't find it any great advantage. If all youw wheels are sliding on ice you still wont stop!!
Go away and buy a Megane!
Find my Chimaera almost impossible to spin, the brakes work just fine and the steering is perfect (Non PAS).
Your supposed to drive within the road conditions, not foot to the floor everywhere. I've driven a car with ABS and didn't find it any great advantage. If all youw wheels are sliding on ice you still wont stop!!
Go away and buy a Megane!
I just wanted to contribute my two-pennies worth to this thread. We agree that our Griffs [and ever-so-slightly lady-boy Chimps 
] do not have certain ‘safety’ features that are almost standard in more ‘modern’ cars. One of the reasons for these features being standard is that Joe Public has the rather sad habit of distinguishing cars by gadgetry – admittedly, some of it good – and so it hurts your product in the market if the car you’re marketing does not offer those features. It’s an unfortunate side effect of modern mass production. Joe does not want to be shown up in the pub because his car doesn’t have traction control or sat nav with optional flip-flop flipper.
I like to think that the enthusiastic TVR buyer looks for the soul in the car. How many of you have had the chance to drive more exotic cars and decided that there was something missing from the experience (excepting really serious motors like the Zonda, Murcielago and the Enzo)? I am sure that there are many motorists out there who plan to keep their Boxters, SLKs and Z3s for decades and continue to throw money at them long after the car has retired from the performance game, but I don’t know any of them. By the way, a well-maintained TVR will never become a money pit or retire! Unless the unforeseen (ie ‘the other guy’) happens…
My point? From common sense and not as much experience as other respected PHers out there:
Hut49 -- I agree with you about driver awareness. Rule number 1: The driver is everything (this includes his brain)! Guys, don’t forget that! The car is only doing what you ask it to do. Would you send your tea-boy to clinch a big deal? That would be asking too much. Your car is more ‘capable’ than the tea-boy, but still know its limitations under different road conditions. If you are concentrating then you will not over-commit the car.
Rule #1 requires that you preserve the driver for future driving enjoyment.
Don -- That is a good scenario, but if you get caught out like that then you were driving too fast around that corner. Rule number 2: Drive pre-emptively with you eyes, not on faith! You can rely on the seat of your pants on the track, but not on public roads. If you realise mid-corner that you are have overcooked it, I don’t care which electronic aids you have – Newtonian physics states that you WILL take off tangentially or continue round that corner (the momentum just doesn’t vanish); you could end up fcuked either way. Try this – it’s rewarding:
Adjust your speed to your line of sight through a corner so that in an emergency you can stop (hard) within your line of sight and on your side of the road. Practice this regularly in the summer when you hit the dry country lanes early on Sunday mornings (blindingly obvious, but make sure that the road is empty behind you – hence the suggested timing). Obvious again, but actively learn to recognise what a corner looks like as it tightens or opens up and link these images directly to your right foot. It’s almost like catching a ball – you stopped thinking about where your hand is years ago; these days, you just use you eyes while your brain does the rest automatically.
You’ll be surprised by the SAFE pace you can carry through a corner with full knowledge that you can do a successful emergency stop mid-corner if there is a tractor up against the tall hedge. You’re driving a powerful Tiv so you can still go into a corner quickly, but you’ll now be doing it at a speed that suits that corner with an in-built safety margin to for hard braking in an emergency. You can still have great fun out of that corner as well – that’s why you’ve been so well endowed…. with torque. Corner entry at the limits of grip – save that for the track!
Rule #2 requires that you do not drive in the same way at night, in a rainstorm, in foggy conditions or on congested or damp roads, but adjust your driving accordingly. By all means open her up, if the conditions allow, but don’t keep your brain in neutral!
Ribol -- Yes, they can look very messed up when they crash, but remember how F1 cars smash on impact? Admittedly, there is no safety cell around you, but then you are not hitting walls at 150 mph (on public roads) otherwise you have forgotten about Rule #1. Before the body breaks, it bends as far as it will go then smashes/cracks – all this absorbs energy and stops it from reaching your body.
The really worrying things are side-impacts and rolling.
It’s probably a good idea to fit a strong roll bar. The cars have a very low centre of gravity so you would be unlucky to roll one unless you suddenly had to abort an overtaking move and headed off towards the verge because of an oncoming vehicle – this would only happen if you forgot Rules 1 & 2. I still think that you’d have to get airborne or jam your wheels against something before the car will start to roll. You should certainly always assume that the guy you are overtaking might also pull out for some reason, even if it’s only the two of you on the road. Harnesses are probably also a good idea because they stop you from a sudden urge to kiss the wind screen when you hit something hard. But then, they restrict your ability to duck if you had the presence of mind to do so when you come up against a lorry head-on. Even a Tamora’s screen-mounted roll hoop wouldn’t be able to resist the urge to smack the back of you head as you kissed the dashboard in this scenario.
Side-impacts do also worry me because the car is low and not always easy to see – especially in a rainstorm. My solution is to always be extra careful when pulling out into traffic in town and to assume that the guy who’s waiting to pull out in front of me on this A-road is going to do just that. Read their car-body language and adjust your speed as though going into a corner so at worst, you might smack into the back of him and live to shout him down. If you don’t adjust your speed, you might smack him a damn sight harder or worse still, swerve into the oncoming traffic in an attempt to avoid him. Fcuked either way!
You can only protect yourself so much. As a pedestrian, you look after yourself by observing Rule #1 and Rule #2 as applied to walking. It’s no guarantee that you’ll never get swiped by a car one day. Same principle applies to driving. It is mainly down to the driver, but there is always the other guy. When it’s your time, it’s your time!
Rule 1, Rule 2, Rule 1, Rule 2…
Comments invited, both +ve and –ve!
] do not have certain ‘safety’ features that are almost standard in more ‘modern’ cars. One of the reasons for these features being standard is that Joe Public has the rather sad habit of distinguishing cars by gadgetry – admittedly, some of it good – and so it hurts your product in the market if the car you’re marketing does not offer those features. It’s an unfortunate side effect of modern mass production. Joe does not want to be shown up in the pub because his car doesn’t have traction control or sat nav with optional flip-flop flipper. I like to think that the enthusiastic TVR buyer looks for the soul in the car. How many of you have had the chance to drive more exotic cars and decided that there was something missing from the experience (excepting really serious motors like the Zonda, Murcielago and the Enzo)? I am sure that there are many motorists out there who plan to keep their Boxters, SLKs and Z3s for decades and continue to throw money at them long after the car has retired from the performance game, but I don’t know any of them. By the way, a well-maintained TVR will never become a money pit or retire! Unless the unforeseen (ie ‘the other guy’) happens…
My point? From common sense and not as much experience as other respected PHers out there:
Hut49 -- I agree with you about driver awareness. Rule number 1: The driver is everything (this includes his brain)! Guys, don’t forget that! The car is only doing what you ask it to do. Would you send your tea-boy to clinch a big deal? That would be asking too much. Your car is more ‘capable’ than the tea-boy, but still know its limitations under different road conditions. If you are concentrating then you will not over-commit the car.
Rule #1 requires that you preserve the driver for future driving enjoyment.
Don -- That is a good scenario, but if you get caught out like that then you were driving too fast around that corner. Rule number 2: Drive pre-emptively with you eyes, not on faith! You can rely on the seat of your pants on the track, but not on public roads. If you realise mid-corner that you are have overcooked it, I don’t care which electronic aids you have – Newtonian physics states that you WILL take off tangentially or continue round that corner (the momentum just doesn’t vanish); you could end up fcuked either way. Try this – it’s rewarding:
Adjust your speed to your line of sight through a corner so that in an emergency you can stop (hard) within your line of sight and on your side of the road. Practice this regularly in the summer when you hit the dry country lanes early on Sunday mornings (blindingly obvious, but make sure that the road is empty behind you – hence the suggested timing). Obvious again, but actively learn to recognise what a corner looks like as it tightens or opens up and link these images directly to your right foot. It’s almost like catching a ball – you stopped thinking about where your hand is years ago; these days, you just use you eyes while your brain does the rest automatically.
You’ll be surprised by the SAFE pace you can carry through a corner with full knowledge that you can do a successful emergency stop mid-corner if there is a tractor up against the tall hedge. You’re driving a powerful Tiv so you can still go into a corner quickly, but you’ll now be doing it at a speed that suits that corner with an in-built safety margin to for hard braking in an emergency. You can still have great fun out of that corner as well – that’s why you’ve been so well endowed…. with torque. Corner entry at the limits of grip – save that for the track!
Rule #2 requires that you do not drive in the same way at night, in a rainstorm, in foggy conditions or on congested or damp roads, but adjust your driving accordingly. By all means open her up, if the conditions allow, but don’t keep your brain in neutral!
Ribol -- Yes, they can look very messed up when they crash, but remember how F1 cars smash on impact? Admittedly, there is no safety cell around you, but then you are not hitting walls at 150 mph (on public roads) otherwise you have forgotten about Rule #1. Before the body breaks, it bends as far as it will go then smashes/cracks – all this absorbs energy and stops it from reaching your body.
The really worrying things are side-impacts and rolling.
It’s probably a good idea to fit a strong roll bar. The cars have a very low centre of gravity so you would be unlucky to roll one unless you suddenly had to abort an overtaking move and headed off towards the verge because of an oncoming vehicle – this would only happen if you forgot Rules 1 & 2. I still think that you’d have to get airborne or jam your wheels against something before the car will start to roll. You should certainly always assume that the guy you are overtaking might also pull out for some reason, even if it’s only the two of you on the road. Harnesses are probably also a good idea because they stop you from a sudden urge to kiss the wind screen when you hit something hard. But then, they restrict your ability to duck if you had the presence of mind to do so when you come up against a lorry head-on. Even a Tamora’s screen-mounted roll hoop wouldn’t be able to resist the urge to smack the back of you head as you kissed the dashboard in this scenario.
Side-impacts do also worry me because the car is low and not always easy to see – especially in a rainstorm. My solution is to always be extra careful when pulling out into traffic in town and to assume that the guy who’s waiting to pull out in front of me on this A-road is going to do just that. Read their car-body language and adjust your speed as though going into a corner so at worst, you might smack into the back of him and live to shout him down. If you don’t adjust your speed, you might smack him a damn sight harder or worse still, swerve into the oncoming traffic in an attempt to avoid him. Fcuked either way!
You can only protect yourself so much. As a pedestrian, you look after yourself by observing Rule #1 and Rule #2 as applied to walking. It’s no guarantee that you’ll never get swiped by a car one day. Same principle applies to driving. It is mainly down to the driver, but there is always the other guy. When it’s your time, it’s your time!
Rule 1, Rule 2, Rule 1, Rule 2…
Comments invited, both +ve and –ve!
Great post Camlifter, with valuable observations backed up with examples. Enjoyed reading it even thought the consequences of getting it wrong in the situations you describe didn't leave much to the imagination.
I was reminded of a great quote on the Ride Drive Limited site (incidentally, well worth a visit) www.ridedrive.co.uk/tvr/index.html
"Remember - if you are able to find out where the limit of yourself and your car lie you will know never to go in search of it again"
Hutch
I was reminded of a great quote on the Ride Drive Limited site (incidentally, well worth a visit) www.ridedrive.co.uk/tvr/index.html
"Remember - if you are able to find out where the limit of yourself and your car lie you will know never to go in search of it again"
Hutch
I'm reading this post and can't help classifying the posters as 'big c*ck', 'small c*ck'. I know that mine grows everytime I get in the Chimaera because it doesnt have any driver aids at all (apart from the wife - who wails when I do something stupid). I guess I've fallen at the first hurdle then!
The truth is you're all right. If we could all drive brilliantly, we wouldn't need any of these things. However, in reality, there are a lot of pillocks who know nothing about driving techniques and whose stock reaction to any mishap is to hit the brake pedal - even if they should do the exact opposite. It is for these people (that is - most of us) that TCS, DSC, ABS etc. etc. is developed and has no doubt saved a lot of lives.
The truth is you're all right. If we could all drive brilliantly, we wouldn't need any of these things. However, in reality, there are a lot of pillocks who know nothing about driving techniques and whose stock reaction to any mishap is to hit the brake pedal - even if they should do the exact opposite. It is for these people (that is - most of us) that TCS, DSC, ABS etc. etc. is developed and has no doubt saved a lot of lives.
Graham said: Side impact bars... this is one area the chim and the griff ( all other tivs even the wedge have them) is let down a bit you are more vunerable than some cars to side impact.
Interesting one .. my 1992 400SE has 2 large beams that pass inside the doors from the hinges to the lock plates.
also, I have smashed my 400 a few times .. grp is excellent at absorbing accident damage. yes it splits, it cracks but it absorbs rather than transmits the impact.
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