Which Spec for SR3 Supersport
Discussion
Hi all,
I am looking at buying a new Radical SR3 Supersport for Trackday fun.
But, what spec to go for.
Initial thought were for a Fuel Injected 1300 with 205bhp and the Oil Drive cooler.. This was suggested by Ben at Radical due to the reduced maintenance and cost per bhp.
I fancy the full 1500 Injected, dry sumped, Oil Drive cooled 252bhp nutter engine though...
Problem is it sounds like an oil change after each trackday and 2 full engine refreshes a year at £750 each (ouch!).
The other reason for wanting the full spec racing engine is that of resale value and demand. I'm guessing there would be more customers after a full racing spec SR3 without high cost Engine upgrades to full race spec. I suppose even racing teams would be interested.
What's your opinions on the Engine options, maintenance, running costs etc.... (I'm planning on 1 - 2 trackdays per month)?
I hope you can help because the wrong decision could be mega expensive, as it is the full spec car and nice enclosed trailer is over £51k.
Your experience and advice would be much appreciated.
Many thanks all you lucky SR3 owners (what a car !!!)
Rich S.
I am looking at buying a new Radical SR3 Supersport for Trackday fun.
But, what spec to go for.
Initial thought were for a Fuel Injected 1300 with 205bhp and the Oil Drive cooler.. This was suggested by Ben at Radical due to the reduced maintenance and cost per bhp.
I fancy the full 1500 Injected, dry sumped, Oil Drive cooled 252bhp nutter engine though...
Problem is it sounds like an oil change after each trackday and 2 full engine refreshes a year at £750 each (ouch!).
The other reason for wanting the full spec racing engine is that of resale value and demand. I'm guessing there would be more customers after a full racing spec SR3 without high cost Engine upgrades to full race spec. I suppose even racing teams would be interested.
What's your opinions on the Engine options, maintenance, running costs etc.... (I'm planning on 1 - 2 trackdays per month)?
I hope you can help because the wrong decision could be mega expensive, as it is the full spec car and nice enclosed trailer is over £51k.
Your experience and advice would be much appreciated.
Many thanks all you lucky SR3 owners (what a car !!!)
Rich S.
You're better off leaving it wet sumped IMO. The word is that the dry sumping doesn't work brilliantly on the Suzuki engines. If you're not going to race it, stick with the 1300 too. 1500 won't last as long and will cost more in rebuilds (and a lot more if it goes pop). If someone buys it for racing, they'll probably want an engine refresh anyway, and could take that opportunity to upgrade it to a 1500.
I'd also suggest going with the high front splitter. Won't cost you a lot in performance terms, but might save you a few pennies during those gravelly moments...
I'd also suggest going with the high front splitter. Won't cost you a lot in performance terms, but might save you a few pennies during those gravelly moments...
I've only seen a single wet sumped 1300, and I don't think the factory have sold any wet sumped 1500s? I subscribed to the yahoo BEC list for a while (bike engined car), and they seemed to have lots of oil surge problems in the bigger motorcycle engines.
I was told by Radical (& Ted @ Powertec) I'd need a yearly refresh on the 1500, with an oil change after every 3 days.
If you're coming from a ~250bhp road car to the Radical, I'd say the 1300 would be fine - it will still be faster than anything bar 1500 Radicals on a track day. If it feels slow after your previous car though, there's only one way to go!
What is this new 230bhp 1500LC option though? A cheaper 1500 with more standard bits that runs on 95 instead of 98 fuel?
Danny
PS I'd go for injection. Starts every time, runs perfectly - no messing with stone age carbs for me!
I was told by Radical (& Ted @ Powertec) I'd need a yearly refresh on the 1500, with an oil change after every 3 days.
If you're coming from a ~250bhp road car to the Radical, I'd say the 1300 would be fine - it will still be faster than anything bar 1500 Radicals on a track day. If it feels slow after your previous car though, there's only one way to go!
What is this new 230bhp 1500LC option though? A cheaper 1500 with more standard bits that runs on 95 instead of 98 fuel?
Danny
PS I'd go for injection. Starts every time, runs perfectly - no messing with stone age carbs for me!
As for the Maintenance Issue and the more Powerful 252bhp 1500, here's the advice from a guy at PowerTec how actually builds the Engines for Radical:-
I spoke to a guy called 'Terry' and he highly recommended the 252bhp 1500 with Injection and the following parts.
- Larger Battery to aid starting High Compression Motor.
He also said be careful starting the motor if the battery is low, and never start the car with any throttle on, he says this can damage the Starter clutch, leaving indentations which the starter motor can bite on and bugger the starter motor at £250 each.
- Fan on Radiator (on side air intake)
- Gear Oil Drive Cooler
- Dry sump only required really for really heavy use and racing.
Wet sump is fine. Bonus of the Dry sump though is that it has 1/3 extra capacity and therefore helps safety margin on Oil Levels and also the oil changes maybe 1 or 2 trackdays longer due to there is a larger dilution of contaminants.
Terry recommends always turning the engine off when waiting for a track session, these engines get very hot, espeically when static and not in fast moving air flow.
Maintenance
-----------------
Use 'Silkolene Pro 4 Oil' - This is quality Oil which is Red in colour and turns Darker until Blank when the Oil requires changing (a nice quality for inspection & maintenance).
Recommends Changing Oil after 4 Trackdays. Check colour, if it's very dark / black then reduce the change frequency by one trackday. If the Oil is still red, you can reuse the oil and extend by 1 trackday.
Repeat until you find the frequency of oil change which matches your track day useage
Oil Filter Change on every second Oil Change. So if you find the Oil is ready for change after 5 Trackdays, then change the Filter every 10 Trackdays (therefore if Oil Change @ 6 days, Filter @ 12 days)
Engine Refresh - Same for all the engines regardless of what anybody says. Always 1 per season / year, but if racing recommends 2 per season. If Oil changes are as required and the levels are always checked then 1 refresh will be fine.
If the oil is run low, then recommends a refresh asap to ensure no damage has occured.
So, CHECK YOUR LEVELS OFTEN !!!!!
Price of Refresh. Ben Crissall quoted me £750 per refresh, some other SR3 Owners claim £1000. Terry at Powertec quoted, safer to budget for £1200 based on the sorts of things that occur. Head Gasket always changed at refresh.
Confusing eh, but after speaking to Terry (great guy from in Engine shop) it's all clear now.
So, Don't turn down the monster Engine on the grounds of maintenance. It doesn't actually cost more than the other Engines and is just as reliable. It's just a little more important that you are sensible, and keep a close eye on the Levels (ie Oil).
Regards
Rich Slaney
I spoke to a guy called 'Terry' and he highly recommended the 252bhp 1500 with Injection and the following parts.
- Larger Battery to aid starting High Compression Motor.
He also said be careful starting the motor if the battery is low, and never start the car with any throttle on, he says this can damage the Starter clutch, leaving indentations which the starter motor can bite on and bugger the starter motor at £250 each.
- Fan on Radiator (on side air intake)
- Gear Oil Drive Cooler
- Dry sump only required really for really heavy use and racing.
Wet sump is fine. Bonus of the Dry sump though is that it has 1/3 extra capacity and therefore helps safety margin on Oil Levels and also the oil changes maybe 1 or 2 trackdays longer due to there is a larger dilution of contaminants.
Terry recommends always turning the engine off when waiting for a track session, these engines get very hot, espeically when static and not in fast moving air flow.
Maintenance
-----------------
Use 'Silkolene Pro 4 Oil' - This is quality Oil which is Red in colour and turns Darker until Blank when the Oil requires changing (a nice quality for inspection & maintenance).
Recommends Changing Oil after 4 Trackdays. Check colour, if it's very dark / black then reduce the change frequency by one trackday. If the Oil is still red, you can reuse the oil and extend by 1 trackday.
Repeat until you find the frequency of oil change which matches your track day useage
Oil Filter Change on every second Oil Change. So if you find the Oil is ready for change after 5 Trackdays, then change the Filter every 10 Trackdays (therefore if Oil Change @ 6 days, Filter @ 12 days)
Engine Refresh - Same for all the engines regardless of what anybody says. Always 1 per season / year, but if racing recommends 2 per season. If Oil changes are as required and the levels are always checked then 1 refresh will be fine.
If the oil is run low, then recommends a refresh asap to ensure no damage has occured.
So, CHECK YOUR LEVELS OFTEN !!!!!
Price of Refresh. Ben Crissall quoted me £750 per refresh, some other SR3 Owners claim £1000. Terry at Powertec quoted, safer to budget for £1200 based on the sorts of things that occur. Head Gasket always changed at refresh.
Confusing eh, but after speaking to Terry (great guy from in Engine shop) it's all clear now.
So, Don't turn down the monster Engine on the grounds of maintenance. It doesn't actually cost more than the other Engines and is just as reliable. It's just a little more important that you are sensible, and keep a close eye on the Levels (ie Oil).
Regards
Rich Slaney
Hi all,
Ben @ Radical has confirmed that the Engine Refresh for all Engines (1100, 1300, 1500) regardless of output and specification is £1200.
As for what's involved, I beleive it's a full strip down, inspection and rebuild including fitting a new Head Gasket... That's as much as I know about the technicalities.
Here's the Radical reply to my email query:-
--------------------------------------------
I have just confirmed the refresh costs with Powertech , please see below.
1100cc Refresh = £1200
1300cc Refresh = £1200
1500cc Refresh = £1200
The £750 i quoted is for a strip down/re-build and check only. This would apply if the engine had been overheated or over reved. No parts would be included in this price. Again my appologies for my error.
Regards,
Rich.S
Ben @ Radical has confirmed that the Engine Refresh for all Engines (1100, 1300, 1500) regardless of output and specification is £1200.
As for what's involved, I beleive it's a full strip down, inspection and rebuild including fitting a new Head Gasket... That's as much as I know about the technicalities.
Here's the Radical reply to my email query:-
--------------------------------------------
I have just confirmed the refresh costs with Powertech , please see below.
1100cc Refresh = £1200
1300cc Refresh = £1200
1500cc Refresh = £1200
The £750 i quoted is for a strip down/re-build and check only. This would apply if the engine had been overheated or over reved. No parts would be included in this price. Again my appologies for my error.
Regards,
Rich.S
If your not racing in the Radical championships then you don't have to use Radical to rebuild your engines.
I'm using TTS who build some of the quickest bike engines around for all sorts of applications from drag racing to auto cross.
The 1507cc engine is bored & stroke with cams and a gas flowed head, this NA engine is quicker than Radicals 1500 conversion which is only 1471cc really, at Le Mans in July it had enough power advantage to go passed on the straight even with my extra 5 stone body weight
This engine has run 208 bhp at the wheels on a rolling road.
We our now installing the supercharged engine which has been developed and used for drag racing so far in various states of tune, running between 320 - 350 bhp depending on boost level & size of supercharger, we will start with low boost ( 0.8 bar ) and work from the position of driveability and reliability rather than maximum power.
I'm using TTS who build some of the quickest bike engines around for all sorts of applications from drag racing to auto cross.
The 1507cc engine is bored & stroke with cams and a gas flowed head, this NA engine is quicker than Radicals 1500 conversion which is only 1471cc really, at Le Mans in July it had enough power advantage to go passed on the straight even with my extra 5 stone body weight
This engine has run 208 bhp at the wheels on a rolling road. We our now installing the supercharged engine which has been developed and used for drag racing so far in various states of tune, running between 320 - 350 bhp depending on boost level & size of supercharger, we will start with low boost ( 0.8 bar ) and work from the position of driveability and reliability rather than maximum power.
Hi all,
I rang Radical again about the Engine Refresh....
I was first quoted £750, now £1200 and after reading these postings it seems that's not the full picture.
The refresh is simply for Powertec to look at the engine only, not engine in the back of the Radical.
So yes, they will charge you about 2 days labour for engine removal and refit.
So, if you have the skills remove it yourself and deliver to Radical... Get the refresh and then refit yourself.
The running cost for a twice per month trackday car seem to be spiraling up and up!
I'm on a really good wage (over £100k pa) and I'm thinking hard about the cost implications.
How do all of you afford this ?
You must all have loads of cash, or no mortgage / kids etc !
Guess I must be feeling a little paranoid.
I need to drive an SR3 again soon to confirm that I want one. I know I do, but I've just got to believe blowing £400 - £500 per trackday (incl maintenance costs) is really OK.
Have any of you done any Radical Racing? If so what were the real costs. Maybe if I raced it, my own company could sponsor me and maybe even buy the car through the company to save VAT.
Any advice how to con myself into believing this ?
I WANT A SR3 SUPERSPORT SOOOOOO BAD !!!
Take it easy,
Rich S
I rang Radical again about the Engine Refresh....
I was first quoted £750, now £1200 and after reading these postings it seems that's not the full picture.
The refresh is simply for Powertec to look at the engine only, not engine in the back of the Radical.
So yes, they will charge you about 2 days labour for engine removal and refit.
So, if you have the skills remove it yourself and deliver to Radical... Get the refresh and then refit yourself.
The running cost for a twice per month trackday car seem to be spiraling up and up!
I'm on a really good wage (over £100k pa) and I'm thinking hard about the cost implications.
How do all of you afford this ?
You must all have loads of cash, or no mortgage / kids etc !
Guess I must be feeling a little paranoid.
I need to drive an SR3 again soon to confirm that I want one. I know I do, but I've just got to believe blowing £400 - £500 per trackday (incl maintenance costs) is really OK.
Have any of you done any Radical Racing? If so what were the real costs. Maybe if I raced it, my own company could sponsor me and maybe even buy the car through the company to save VAT.
Any advice how to con myself into believing this ?
I WANT A SR3 SUPERSPORT SOOOOOO BAD !!!
Take it easy,
Rich S
Rich,
I think you need to re do the sums m8, all up cost for trackdays including entry fee, running cost for the actual day plus the general maintenance including tyres etc will cost more than £500 per day, I say more like £850 on average over the year by the time you factor in engine & quaife transmission rebuilds, brakes, tyres and the odd front splitter or four etc.
I have run mine for 2 years now and have only averaged 12 trackdays per year but the cost is scary when you add it all up, you will soon get bored with the normal cheap trackdays like easytrack & bookatrack days as they are to "busy" and cater mainly for road cars which are far to slow for SR3's to mix with, you will soon be paying for £300 a time days with open pit lane and fewer cars such as RMA days, it all adds up !!!
Try getting your company to hire the car for corporate type trackdays, promotional use etc to offset some of the cost of ownership
If you race it the revenue will view it as a benefit in kind for yourself, so be carefull.
>> Edited by daved6 on Saturday 6th September 00:45
I think you need to re do the sums m8, all up cost for trackdays including entry fee, running cost for the actual day plus the general maintenance including tyres etc will cost more than £500 per day, I say more like £850 on average over the year by the time you factor in engine & quaife transmission rebuilds, brakes, tyres and the odd front splitter or four etc.
I have run mine for 2 years now and have only averaged 12 trackdays per year but the cost is scary when you add it all up, you will soon get bored with the normal cheap trackdays like easytrack & bookatrack days as they are to "busy" and cater mainly for road cars which are far to slow for SR3's to mix with, you will soon be paying for £300 a time days with open pit lane and fewer cars such as RMA days, it all adds up !!!
Try getting your company to hire the car for corporate type trackdays, promotional use etc to offset some of the cost of ownership
If you race it the revenue will view it as a benefit in kind for yourself, so be carefull.
>> Edited by daved6 on Saturday 6th September 00:45
Dave,
Now your just tyring to scare me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Again, how do all you guys afford this ?
I would guess no mortgage, wife, kids etc,etc
I've really got to try and justify this now. I really want to go for it, but a relative cost of about £850 is starting to be serious.
Dave, have you also got a small yacht moored of the bay in Monte Carlo ?
Only kidding,
Rich
Now your just tyring to scare me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Again, how do all you guys afford this ?
I would guess no mortgage, wife, kids etc,etc
I've really got to try and justify this now. I really want to go for it, but a relative cost of about £850 is starting to be serious.
Dave, have you also got a small yacht moored of the bay in Monte Carlo ?
Only kidding,
Rich
Rich and Dave, I race a radical in the championship in the clubsport class (1100cc) and I can confirm that with a day testing prior to the race and then 2 races each of 20 min duration ,I can be looking at £2k plus any damage !! and I have seen teams in the SR3 category spend £28k for 1 weekends racing (ouch) These are just examples of how it could go, but don"t let that put you off as I have been racing them for 3 years now and these examples are worst case scenarios. The product in my view is very good, go on, you know it makes sense !
Regards
Tony.
Regards
Tony.
Tony,
Thats why I'm only doing trackdays at the mo, I would really love to race but unless you have a decent buget its a waste of time.
Rich,
I've got the mortgage, wife and two kids, you just have to sort out your priorities
seriously though, I had a choice of getting a new GT3 as my new road car or spend it all on the house conversion, I lost this one, hence the builders are in and I'm still driving a L200 crew cab as my company car
but hey, least the wife is happy
Thats why I'm only doing trackdays at the mo, I would really love to race but unless you have a decent buget its a waste of time.
Rich,
I've got the mortgage, wife and two kids, you just have to sort out your priorities
seriously though, I had a choice of getting a new GT3 as my new road car or spend it all on the house conversion, I lost this one, hence the builders are in and I'm still driving a L200 crew cab as my company car
but hey, least the wife is happy I've found running costs to be OK and cheaper than anything else I drive!
Minus trackday costs (£70 normally with 4 hr open pitlane @ Knockhill), fuel and insurance, I've spent £500 in a year for one service. Spent another £600 getting a few non-essential items carried out on top of that - changed gear ratios, seat covers (comfy!), digi gear indicator, tonneau cover, etc.
Nowt gone wrong with the car in a year (2,000 miles) and still on original splitter!
Still having problems filling the booger up at petrol pumps though.
Minus trackday costs (£70 normally with 4 hr open pitlane @ Knockhill), fuel and insurance, I've spent £500 in a year for one service. Spent another £600 getting a few non-essential items carried out on top of that - changed gear ratios, seat covers (comfy!), digi gear indicator, tonneau cover, etc.
Nowt gone wrong with the car in a year (2,000 miles) and still on original splitter!
Still having problems filling the booger up at petrol pumps though.
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