Jaguar E-Pace

[Willy Nilly]

Why don't JLR set up a dedicated SUV subsidiary so that Jaguar could concentrate on cars? They could call it Land Rover, for instance.

[limpsfield]

GT119 said:

the other (non-car) people sitting in the Velar were adamant that the I-Pace we could see was an F-Pace no matter how much I tried to convince them otherwise. I suggested they walk around the stand to sit in the F-Pace which was just out of view. I think they walked off in the other direction.

Surprised face emoji

[joshcowin]

Surely the old school Jag fans have 4 points of interest in the range!!

XE XF XJ F-type

Is there an issue with supplying suv's, I know many older people 70+ who drive SUV cars as they are easy to access and provide good visibility. Think Nissan Quashthingy and duke, lexus rx and nx, Toyota rav4 ...

[Ares]

The Vambo said:

£28,500, feckin heavy though. 1700kg for the top spec 4 pot

Is that heavy for the sector?

[Ares]

hackjo said:

Allegedly, and in the short term quite possibly. But what about the long term damage to the brand? Jaguar don't have the brand reputation to get away with it in the same way as the German manufacturers. Meanwhile, their original loyal client base is deserting them, in favor of a more transient client base who don't care what brand they buy and have no loyalty to Jaguar when they fk it up. And there are many horror stories about laxadasical build quality on the latest Jaguar models since the XE.

It's good that a British brand (albeit Indian owned) is supposedly doing well but I'm not convinced that throwing the baby out with the bath water is really going to pay off long term.

Witness the decline of Rover for a good example of taking a luxury manufacturer downmarket into volume production while cutting costs.

Who are the loyal client base you speak of?

My general age bracket (40-50yrs) shun Jaguars and seldom give them a second look. There is noting in their range currently that genuinely attracts, and the entire range has been substandard for 20yrs.

The 50+ may warm to them, but I'd argue their loyal market is the Silver-Drivers, many of whom won't be driving/buying cars in 10 yrs time.

So this enters a new market for them. Look at Macans and the little Audi/BMW/Merc SUV(s), it is the yummy mummy market. Want the high drive and easy loading of an SUV, but want something that has style and smaller dimensions.

Harking back on distant heritage when Jaguar was a VERY different business, will only lead to bankruptcy. Get them broadening their appeal, broadening the market, increasing sales, increasing profits....THEN they can get back to proper performance/desirable options.

[hackjo]

joshcowin said:

Surely the old school Jag fans have 4 points of interest in the range!!

XE XF XJ F-type

Is there an issue with supplying suv's, I know many older people 70+ who drive SUV cars as they are easy to access and provide good visibility. Think Nissan Quashthingy and duke, lexus rx and nx, Toyota rav4 ...

The problem there is:

XE - bland, plasticky, noisy
XF - see XE
XJ - A modern interpretation of traditional Jag values. Excellent, although styling polarising.
F-Type - Beautiful car, traditional Jag lines all over it, interior good but not great, underwhelming in terms of weight and handling

The only two cars there which for me, a genuine modern Jaguars are the XJ and F-Type. The other two are just German clones built on a budget.

[Ares]

hackjo said:

The problem there is:

XE - bland, plasticky, noisy
XF - see XE
XJ - A modern interpretation of traditional Jag values. Excellent, although styling polarising.
F-Type - Beautiful car, traditional Jag lines all over it, interior good but not great, underwhelming in terms of weight and handling

The only two cars there which for me, a genuine modern Jaguars are the XJ and F-Type. The other two are just German clones built on a budget.

F-Type is also 2 seats only, but not seen as a pre-kids choice, so they are limited to post-kids buyers. Nowadays that is getting towards 60+

[kambites]

Ares said:

The Vambo said:

£28,500, feckin heavy though. 1700kg for the top spec 4 pot

Is that heavy for the sector?

Not really. The lightest X3 and GLC (which I assume are what this competes with?) are both just over 1800kg.

[kambites]

Ares said:

F-Type is also 2 seats only, but not seen as a pre-kids choice, so they are limited to post-kids buyers. Nowadays that is getting towards 60+

I'd imagine most are second-cars for middle aged men. Just like every other car in that sector.

[Ares]

kambites said:

Ares said:

F-Type is also 2 seats only, but not seen as a pre-kids choice, so they are limited to post-kids buyers. Nowadays that is getting towards 60+

I'd imagine most are second-cars for middle aged men. Just like every other car in that sector.

Boxster/Cayman still very popular with pre-kids - i.e, default options for 20s/early-30s. Jag isn't.

For affluent mid-life crisis men, that can run 2 cars plus a 3rd for the wife, most (amongst my peers) want something spicier than an F-Type? Most round here are driven by 60+

[kambites]

Ares said:

Boxster/Cayman still very popular with pre-kids - i.e, default options for 20s/early-30s. Jag isn't.

It's not a Boxster competitor though is it? I thought it was far more expensive, even for the V6, and it's certainly much bigger.

I'd say its obvious competition are things like the Mercedes SL. I'd bet the huge majority of F-type buyers are over 40 but under 60. I've certainly never seen anyone who looks past retirement age in one.

Edited by kambites on Friday 14th July 13:59

[Ares]

kambites said:

Ares said:

Boxster/Cayman still very popular with pre-kids - i.e, default options for 20s/early-30s. Jag isn't.

It's not a Boxster competitor though is it? I thought it was far more expensive, even for the V6, and it's certainly much bigger.

I'd say its obvious competition are things like the Mercedes SL. I'd bet the huge majority of F-type buyers are over 40 but under 60. I've certainly never seen anyone who looks past retirement age in one.

Edited by kambites on Friday 14th July 13:59

Not sure - maybe thats the issue. I would never see it as an SL competitor. I'd have said Boxster/Cayman.

....and maybe thats near you. Here (Cheshire) I don't think I've seen a non-grey haired driver of an F-Type. I know three owners, two definitely over 60, one is female, mid-40s but car bought by her 60+ husband (welcome to Cheshire!)

[kambites]

You may be right; perhaps I unfairly struggle to see it as a Cayman competitor just because of its size and weight - they are absolutely enormous things. 12cm wider than a Cayman!

[Ares]

Pintofbest said:

Jaguar sales up 83% yoy, LR product 1% due to model run out and new Disco not having an effect yet. Expect Velar to really increase that though.

http://media.jaguarlandrover.com/en-gb/news/2017/0...

Sales have gone from c360k cars in 2012 to 605k last financial year. You need to do some reading.

Exactly. Its almost like JLR know their business better than a bunch of keyboard warriors that would never be in the market for a Jag (or any car that cost more than £30k).

Ditto Porsche/BMW/Merc?etc

[Ares]

kambites said:

You may be right; perhaps I unfairly struggle to see it as a Cayman competitor just because of its size and weight - they are absolutely enormous things. 12cm wider than a Cayman!

....and 20cm shorter than an SL.

Plus Boxster stars at £45k, F-Type £48k....SL £74k!

Maybe its the poor man's SL? Similar age demograph!

[joshcowin]

Just to add the only person I know who has an f-type is a 39 y/o male with a family.

[hackjo]

Ares said:

Exactly. Its almost like JLR know their business better than a bunch of keyboard warriors that would never be in the market for a Jag (or any car that cost more than £30k).

Ditto Porsche/BMW/Merc?etc

I have an XF Sportbrake and Lexus IS300H. Had an S-Type, another XF until recently. So very much in the market, I'm 37, a massive fan of the Jag brand and Director of my own professional services consultancy. So should be the ideal customer really.

[Ares]

hackjo said:

Ares said:

Exactly. Its almost like JLR know their business better than a bunch of keyboard warriors that would never be in the market for a Jag (or any car that cost more than £30k).

Ditto Porsche/BMW/Merc?etc

I have an XF Sportbrake and Lexus IS300H. Had an S-Type, another XF until recently. So very much in the market, I'm 37, a massive fan of the Jag brand and Director of my own professional services consultancy. So should be the ideal customer really.

....and you don't like that Jaguars sales have nearly doubled in 5 years? Is this not a good thing?

Or do you think they would be doing better if they stuck true to your impression of the brand?

And what if your impression of what the brand should stand for? (genuine question). You have an Estate (Diesel or Petrol?) and had a aged saloon car based on a US Ford platform? The current range is flawed, but seems lightyears ahead of that?

[hackjo]

Ares said:

....and you don't like that Jaguars sales have nearly doubled in 5 years? Is this not a good thing?

Or do you think they would be doing better if they stuck true to your impression of the brand?

And what if your impression of what the brand should stand for? (genuine question). You have an Estate (Diesel or Petrol?) and had a aged saloon car based on a US Ford platform? The current range is flawed, but seems lightyears ahead of that?

I'm more concerned about the long term brand devaluation as a result of throwing out the luxury attributes in favour of cheaply trimmed volume cars.

I think they should be making a range of cars which continue to have luxuriously finished cockpits designed with modern lines but using high quality wood leather and metal as the keynote features to varying degrees according to price. I think they should be focussing on luxurious refinement to complement the responsive driving experience. I think the exteriors should be far more distinctive and elegant with more Jag styling cues (big fluted bonnet, haunches, low roofline, exquisite detailing) but executed in a modern way.

I don't understand the business case for SUV's as they are bedfellows with Range Rover, but if they must produce one, then it should conform to the values I listed above.

As an example of what I mean, check out the C-XF concept car and the original F-Pace concept, which I have seen in person at Coventry Transport Museum.

They started on this route with the original XF, which distilled Jaguar values into a striking modern package that sold brilliantly compared to the old S-Type. It was distinct from BMW/Audi/Mercedes and all the better for it. They then cemented this direction with the new XJ, which was followed by the F-Type - another superb distillation of Jaguar values in a modern package.

Where they lost it for me was the XE. Massive promise, hugely hyped and we get a generic rep mobile with a bland, plasticky, poorly implemented interior with a cramped cabin and most models powered by noise, whiney, underwhelming diesel engines. To top it off, refinement was poor and the costs were ridiculous, with most standard kit being made expensive options to the point where an appropriately specced car was ridiculously expensive.

They then repeated the formula for the new XF, ruining a car which had been such a success, and then proceeded to do the same with the F-Pace.

While I liked the older cars like the S-Type, I accept that they were by then far too retro in their design. But the XF for me really showed how they could be modern while still Jaguar. That they have dropped this direction to go for the tacky plastic end of the market is to me, very sad.

If I'm wrong and they are knocking it out of the park in five years then so be it. But all I will say is appealing to millennial is all well and good, but they are a demographic not known for brand loyalty and if you fail to provide something unique you won't keep them long term.

But like I said, I may well be totally wrong.

[Ares]

hackjo said:

Ares said:

....and you don't like that Jaguars sales have nearly doubled in 5 years? Is this not a good thing?

Or do you think they would be doing better if they stuck true to your impression of the brand?

And what if your impression of what the brand should stand for? (genuine question). You have an Estate (Diesel or Petrol?) and had a aged saloon car based on a US Ford platform? The current range is flawed, but seems lightyears ahead of that?

I'm more concerned about the long term brand devaluation as a result of throwing out the luxury attributes in favour of cheaply trimmed volume cars.

I think they should be making a range of cars which continue to have luxuriously finished cockpits designed with modern lines but using high quality wood leather and metal as the keynote features to varying degrees according to price. I think they should be focussing on luxurious refinement to complement the responsive driving experience. I think the exteriors should be far more distinctive and elegant with more Jag styling cues (big fluted bonnet, haunches, low roofline, exquisite detailing) but executed in a modern way.

I don't understand the business case for SUV's as they are bedfellows with Range Rover, but if they must produce one, then it should conform to the values I listed above.

As an example of what I mean, check out the C-XF concept car and the original F-Pace concept, which I have seen in person at Coventry Transport Museum.

They started on this route with the original XF, which distilled Jaguar values into a striking modern package that sold brilliantly compared to the old S-Type. It was distinct from BMW/Audi/Mercedes and all the better for it. They then cemented this direction with the new XJ, which was followed by the F-Type - another superb distillation of Jaguar values in a modern package.

Where they lost it for me was the XE. Massive promise, hugely hyped and we get a generic rep mobile with a bland, plasticky, poorly implemented interior with a cramped cabin and most models powered by noise, whiney, underwhelming diesel engines. To top it off, refinement was poor and the costs were ridiculous, with most standard kit being made expensive options to the point where an appropriately specced car was ridiculously expensive.

They then repeated the formula for the new XF, ruining a car which had been such a success, and then proceeded to do the same with the F-Pace.

While I liked the older cars like the S-Type, I accept that they were by then far too retro in their design. But the XF for me really showed how they could be modern while still Jaguar. That they have dropped this direction to go for the tacky plastic end of the market is to me, very sad.

If I'm wrong and they are knocking it out of the park in five years then so be it. But all I will say is appealing to millennial is all well and good, but they are a demographic not known for brand loyalty and if you fail to provide something unique you won't keep them long term.

But like I said, I may well be totally wrong.

Commercially driven though. Jags are already expensive compared to their competitors, to stick the polished wood/HQ fittings to their cars would add to the cost - the consumer won't pay or doesn't want.

People cited the brand devaluation argument about Porsche, and Bentley, and BMW, and Mercedes. They have all benefitted and the improved commercials allowed them to develop purists cars.

Jag's market entries have mirrored the global market demands, and with Jag's sales doubling, they've got something right.

As for the SUV/RR argument. If you have 5 competing products, better to have 2 of the 5 rather than 1. You could also argue that RR has the higher quality play covered, Jag the more sporting intent.

If I think Jaguar, I think sporting, not leather/wood luxury.