Jaguar considered luxury by the public
Discussion
Schmed said:
Now these were from the days when a Jaguar badge actually meant something, watch the plebs move over around 1.10:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JE82FZpq0qM
I’m not sure an XF today has quite the same effect.
Love the sixties DCW footage, blowing his horn at the lane hogger https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JE82FZpq0qM
I’m not sure an XF today has quite the same effect.
Lot of posts about brands being devalued because there are more of them about.
Was just thinking, its not so much the brands being devalued, it is more that having a car car is more accessible to more people ? 38 million cars registered int he UK, back when Mr Cholmondley Warner there was piloting his Jag there was probably less than a third of that number, so less Jags !
Most were still on bikes out of necessity, walking or buses, plus the population was much smaller.
A bit like air travel is more accessible (obviously not right now) than say in the fifties when it began (for most)
Edited by J4CKO on Tuesday 9th June 10:09
fatboy b said:
Equus said:
I consider them a rung down from Mercedes - perhaps on a par with Audi and BMW in terms of prestige, but with a dash of British shonkiness in practice.
Don’t kid yourself merc are any better than Jag or the other Germans. They’re not. Merc have been flooding the market for some trying to increase their market share, the A, C and E class are average at best for a german car manufacturer
Some of my best childhood memories include my Dads Mk2 'S' Type 3.8
Marroon with Red Leather.Walnut everywhere and two long switches to change fuel tanks.
Two 12 gallon tanks IIRC . I remember it being like a Magic Carpet. Super smooth quiet but very fast.
I recall a race between an Norton Commando and a Triumph Bonneville.
They couldn't loose the Jag on A roads, B roads and Dual Carriageway going up to Seahouses in Northumberland.
About 50 years ago now!
Marroon with Red Leather.Walnut everywhere and two long switches to change fuel tanks.
Two 12 gallon tanks IIRC . I remember it being like a Magic Carpet. Super smooth quiet but very fast.
I recall a race between an Norton Commando and a Triumph Bonneville.
They couldn't loose the Jag on A roads, B roads and Dual Carriageway going up to Seahouses in Northumberland.
About 50 years ago now!
dbdb said:
Jaguar was certainly a luxury car manufacturer before the mid-1990s. It is difficult to see how they could be seen as anything else when you look at the range of range of cars they were offering at that time - and especially the versions of them which they were predominately selling. Most non-Federal XJ40s sold were the large-engine, high-spec Sovereign 3.6 and 4.0 litre - and by a big margin. Just as with the Series 3 where you rarely saw an XJ6 3.4, comparatively few XJ40 buyers purchased the entry level cars.
XJ40 non-Federal production figures 1986-1990:
XJ6 2.9 = 11,191;
XJ6 3.6 = 9,347
Sovereign 3.6 = 50,291
Daimler 3.6 = 10,314
1991-1994
XJ6 3.2 13,053
XJ6 4.0 13,576
Sovereign 4.0 50336
Daimler 4.0 8,878
So XJ40 production was strongly skewed towards the most expensive models which were very expensive luxury cars, competing with the S Class Mercedes and BMW 7 Series. The Jaguar range was simply the XJ and XJ-S back then. The XJ-S was also a very expensive car - even the entry model had a 4 litre engine, with a choice of that or a V12.
The financial situation at Jaguar (at least in part precipitated by currency movement) precluded investment in new models in the 1990s, forcing the XJ40 to soldier on in face lifted X300 guise, pitting it against the fashionable new BMW E38 - and vastly up-scaled Mercedes W140. Whereas the XJ40 could compete favourably in technology terms with the E32 and W126, as the facelifted X300, it was old-fashioned when compared to the new opponents and was gradually re-positioned beneath them in price - the X308 ended the decade only slightly more expensive than the late XJ40 had been many years before. This was particularly apparent since the lower-priced models seemed to take up a higher percentage of the total sales than had been the case for the Series 3 and XJ40 . This is probably why so many people on PH seem to consider the older XJ to be a 5 series rival, which they certainly were not in their day.
Up to 2000 Jaguar had not made a smaller-bodied 'executive' car for many years. To wrestle with this gap in their range they offered an entry-level car with very little standard equipment and a small engine which was generally underpowered, pitched at a significantly lower price. In the Series cars this was a 3.4 litre; in the XJ40 it was a 2.9 initially, then later, a 3.2. Neither made great sales impact, with almost as many of the most expensive Daimler model being sold as the 2.9 XJ6. This is not surprising, since the buyer at the 5 series price-point does not look for the same attributes as the buyer at the 7 series price point, leading to the XJ being seen as an over-sized 'old man's car' by 5 series buyers.
With the introduction of the S-type Jaguar were selling a much cheaper and higher volume car and from this point, they could no longer be described as a luxury car manufacturer in my view, though they did still offer some luxury models. With the introduction of the X-Type they moved further down-market, particularly once the majority of sales became the manual transmission 4 cylinder diesels. I struggle to see such cars as a Jaguar at all - though of course they are. The Jaguar XJ now made up only a small percentage of the Jaguar cars you'd see on the road. From 2000 if someone said they 'had a Jag', the image conjured was not of a large, expensive saloon (or an older, raffish, once-expensive saloon) - but of a company car provided to a middle manager.
I had a Jaguar XJ Sovereign at this time and had owned one for some years. The difference in the 'dealer experience' from owning the car changed starkly from the introduction of the S-Type and X-Type. Before this the dealer was set up to service and handle a small number of cars and customers. The service was very personal and extensive, to the point they knew who I was and what I wanted. After the S-Type and X-Type it became a conveyor-belt approach: I had to fit in with their schedule, not them with mine. The service (from the same dealer) was far lower - but much cheaper too. It reflected the demands of their very different new customer base, which changed profoundly with the introduction of the two new 'baby' Jags.
A similar dilution has taken place at Mercedes and BMW, so it isn't unique to Jaguar. It is particularly toxic to Jaguar though, since the old Jaguar 'brand values' and unique selling points translate less well into the mid-market than that of Mercedes and BMW. They make a cheaper, pale version of the old car, whereas Jaguar is just lost.
/thread right there. Great post.XJ40 non-Federal production figures 1986-1990:
XJ6 2.9 = 11,191;
XJ6 3.6 = 9,347
Sovereign 3.6 = 50,291
Daimler 3.6 = 10,314
1991-1994
XJ6 3.2 13,053
XJ6 4.0 13,576
Sovereign 4.0 50336
Daimler 4.0 8,878
So XJ40 production was strongly skewed towards the most expensive models which were very expensive luxury cars, competing with the S Class Mercedes and BMW 7 Series. The Jaguar range was simply the XJ and XJ-S back then. The XJ-S was also a very expensive car - even the entry model had a 4 litre engine, with a choice of that or a V12.
The financial situation at Jaguar (at least in part precipitated by currency movement) precluded investment in new models in the 1990s, forcing the XJ40 to soldier on in face lifted X300 guise, pitting it against the fashionable new BMW E38 - and vastly up-scaled Mercedes W140. Whereas the XJ40 could compete favourably in technology terms with the E32 and W126, as the facelifted X300, it was old-fashioned when compared to the new opponents and was gradually re-positioned beneath them in price - the X308 ended the decade only slightly more expensive than the late XJ40 had been many years before. This was particularly apparent since the lower-priced models seemed to take up a higher percentage of the total sales than had been the case for the Series 3 and XJ40 . This is probably why so many people on PH seem to consider the older XJ to be a 5 series rival, which they certainly were not in their day.
Up to 2000 Jaguar had not made a smaller-bodied 'executive' car for many years. To wrestle with this gap in their range they offered an entry-level car with very little standard equipment and a small engine which was generally underpowered, pitched at a significantly lower price. In the Series cars this was a 3.4 litre; in the XJ40 it was a 2.9 initially, then later, a 3.2. Neither made great sales impact, with almost as many of the most expensive Daimler model being sold as the 2.9 XJ6. This is not surprising, since the buyer at the 5 series price-point does not look for the same attributes as the buyer at the 7 series price point, leading to the XJ being seen as an over-sized 'old man's car' by 5 series buyers.
With the introduction of the S-type Jaguar were selling a much cheaper and higher volume car and from this point, they could no longer be described as a luxury car manufacturer in my view, though they did still offer some luxury models. With the introduction of the X-Type they moved further down-market, particularly once the majority of sales became the manual transmission 4 cylinder diesels. I struggle to see such cars as a Jaguar at all - though of course they are. The Jaguar XJ now made up only a small percentage of the Jaguar cars you'd see on the road. From 2000 if someone said they 'had a Jag', the image conjured was not of a large, expensive saloon (or an older, raffish, once-expensive saloon) - but of a company car provided to a middle manager.
I had a Jaguar XJ Sovereign at this time and had owned one for some years. The difference in the 'dealer experience' from owning the car changed starkly from the introduction of the S-Type and X-Type. Before this the dealer was set up to service and handle a small number of cars and customers. The service was very personal and extensive, to the point they knew who I was and what I wanted. After the S-Type and X-Type it became a conveyor-belt approach: I had to fit in with their schedule, not them with mine. The service (from the same dealer) was far lower - but much cheaper too. It reflected the demands of their very different new customer base, which changed profoundly with the introduction of the two new 'baby' Jags.
A similar dilution has taken place at Mercedes and BMW, so it isn't unique to Jaguar. It is particularly toxic to Jaguar though, since the old Jaguar 'brand values' and unique selling points translate less well into the mid-market than that of Mercedes and BMW. They make a cheaper, pale version of the old car, whereas Jaguar is just lost.
I used to consider them to be something really special when I was a kid so really knocking on 30 years ago, when I saw an XJ8 I thought it was something really posh. The first Jaguar I ever personally got inside of was the original XK8 and even that I felt at the time was special. I suppose ever since the release of the S type and the X type I see them as another car brand, they have lost that truly special image and I see them at the same level as BMW, Audi, Merc in terms of brand prestige. I get why they have gone the way they have though, ultimately that's where the market is.
My father in law who really knows nothing about cars still considers Jaguar to be a special brand and would put them over the German marques I mention
My father in law who really knows nothing about cars still considers Jaguar to be a special brand and would put them over the German marques I mention
I'm going to be the contrarian here and say that as a 20 year old, I have always considered Jaguar a cut above the German marques. There's no real objective reason why other than I just found the styling rather more distinguished, particularly the old retro-styled XJs. Add to that the fact that they tend to be cherished by their equally erm, "distinguished" owners well into their old age rather than falling into the hands of the young and tasteless.
Put it this way: I have yet to see a 17 year old Jag decked out in fake R badges, filthy aftermarket wheels and a fart-can exhaust driven by the sort of person who thinks matching designer tracksuits are the pinnacle of men's fashion
Edited for spelling
Put it this way: I have yet to see a 17 year old Jag decked out in fake R badges, filthy aftermarket wheels and a fart-can exhaust driven by the sort of person who thinks matching designer tracksuits are the pinnacle of men's fashion
Edited for spelling
Edited by BritishBlitz87 on Tuesday 9th June 10:52
Edited by BritishBlitz87 on Tuesday 9th June 11:07
BritishBlitz87 said:
Put it this way: I have yet to see a 17 year old Jag decked out in fake R badges, filthy aftermarket wheels and a fart-can exhaust driven by the sort of person who thinks matching designer tracksuits are the pinnacle of men's fash
No, but you do often see them with fake leapers, stick-on chrome bits, and St George's cross number plates.Former XK8 owner in my early forties. Loved the car, but the owner profile is mostly ruddy-cheeked UKIPers.
Luxury is difficult to define but a lot seem to be conflating it with image/perception.
Comfort is part of it, I remember going in an early X5 driven by a colleague and thinking it was quite unpleasant to ride in, not very nice leather seats, she had the air con on so it was freezing and it seemed to ride really harshly and was quite noisy compared to what I expected. Now I am sure that it was a bad combination of situation, it being too cold and expectations but is that luxury, certainly seemed posh.
But, got a lift in a friends faithful family Toyota Camry a few days later, it was ancient, rusty and smelt a bit ripe, but by god it felt comfy, plush (if a little stained) velour, lovely ride, think it was a 2 litre auto which was quiet and did the job, he had it set to a sensible temperature.
So a £1000 old Toyota Shed felt much more agreeable to ride in than a new 40 grand BMW.
I have a one series, ride isnt bad but it has that crap scratchy "leather", I had a Merc CLS on air suspension which was a damn comfy car.
Most Jags are still luxurious, in that they are comfortable, quiet and ride well, its just they dont have the same gravitas as they used to have when it was just the very wealthy that had them.
That said, older jags have long since had a down at heel image, Withnail, Arthur Daley etc, just more of them about now. The Krays favored them as well I believe.
Still think a tidy looking XF has a whiff of the old days, XJ's still have it, sorry X type, no chance, S Type not really any more but could be a retired major who bought it new in 2002 or whatever, my aunts very posh friend has one, all gin and fags so quite traditional. XE is just a sort of 3 series/A4/C Class type thing, nice enough but a bit meh.
XK's can still look classy, F types can if they arent going round with their exhausts blaring and popping in a bit of an un jaglike manner.
Comfort is part of it, I remember going in an early X5 driven by a colleague and thinking it was quite unpleasant to ride in, not very nice leather seats, she had the air con on so it was freezing and it seemed to ride really harshly and was quite noisy compared to what I expected. Now I am sure that it was a bad combination of situation, it being too cold and expectations but is that luxury, certainly seemed posh.
But, got a lift in a friends faithful family Toyota Camry a few days later, it was ancient, rusty and smelt a bit ripe, but by god it felt comfy, plush (if a little stained) velour, lovely ride, think it was a 2 litre auto which was quiet and did the job, he had it set to a sensible temperature.
So a £1000 old Toyota Shed felt much more agreeable to ride in than a new 40 grand BMW.
I have a one series, ride isnt bad but it has that crap scratchy "leather", I had a Merc CLS on air suspension which was a damn comfy car.
Most Jags are still luxurious, in that they are comfortable, quiet and ride well, its just they dont have the same gravitas as they used to have when it was just the very wealthy that had them.
That said, older jags have long since had a down at heel image, Withnail, Arthur Daley etc, just more of them about now. The Krays favored them as well I believe.
Still think a tidy looking XF has a whiff of the old days, XJ's still have it, sorry X type, no chance, S Type not really any more but could be a retired major who bought it new in 2002 or whatever, my aunts very posh friend has one, all gin and fags so quite traditional. XE is just a sort of 3 series/A4/C Class type thing, nice enough but a bit meh.
XK's can still look classy, F types can if they arent going round with their exhausts blaring and popping in a bit of an un jaglike manner.
BritishBlitz87 said:
I'm going to be the contrarian here and say that as a 20 year old, I have always considered Jaguar a cut above the German marques. There's no real objective reason why other than I just found the styling rather more distinguished, particularly the old retro-styled XJs. Add to that the fact that they tend to be cherished by their equally erm, "distinguished" owners well into their old age rather than falling into the hands of the young and tasteless.
Put it this way: I have yet to see a 17 year old Jag decked out in fake R badges, filthy aftermarket wheels and a fart-can exhaust driven by the sort of person who thinks matching designer tracksuits are the pinnacle of men's fashion
Edited for spelling
Ahhh there’s a man from the South East who has never been to Tamworth. I was once like you Put it this way: I have yet to see a 17 year old Jag decked out in fake R badges, filthy aftermarket wheels and a fart-can exhaust driven by the sort of person who thinks matching designer tracksuits are the pinnacle of men's fashion
Edited for spelling
Baldchap said:
I haven't owned a car that will do 440 to a tank in the last decade.
I got a whopping 250 miles out of my last 75 litre fill up.To be fair to the Jag XF which is currently on loan to by brother in law, that would do about 500 miles to a 65 litre fill if driven sensibly enough.
If we're going to real extremes, the Mrs C-Class 220CDI drove to Italy and back, 2000 miles odd, via Germany where the vast majority of the driving was at the 110 - 120mph range, 4 up and stuffed to the gunwales with luggage and returned 55mpg average for the whole trip.
A rung down from Bentley, in perception at least, several rungs above Lexus, Infinity, MB, BMW and Audi. My 12 year old XJR, surprisingly gets more favourable comment from younger (sub 40s), than the wife's much newer XFR. I have owned all of the aforesaid marques, except for the Japs; the Jaguars give a greater sense of well being, don't go wrong as frequently, and people do let you out of side turnings as well as pull over to let you overtake, which also happened when in the Bentley.
Seems to be highly age dependent; does a Jaguar conjur up images of a 300bhp XJ12 making everything else look like a stationary object in the 70s and 80s, or a supercharged XKR in the mid 90s making the new Aston look a bit silly, a dismal piggy eyed X-Type with a 2 litre Ford rattler in the 00s, or a lard arse white FWD E-Pace with a 150bhp rattler and a peasant gearbox taking 10 seconds to lumber up to 60 in the 10s...
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 9th June 12:50
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