F-Types - Astonishing Value!
Discussion
EVOTECH3BELL said:
They literally have their own engine plant producing their own engines. So not sure how you can say then don't have the choice of engines or the investment.
Let’s be clear now. How many of those engines were available when the F-type was designed? How many engines was the engine plant making when the F-type was designed? The answer to those questions is none and none. How many of those engines fit in the F-type? One.They needed the ingenium engines because the deal with Ford was coming to an end but for sports cars they needed the 3.0 ingenium but it was deemed least important in the chase for volume and when it did arrive hybridised it doesn’t fit in the F-type.
Yes they built the engine factory and this is of course investment but they never invested in their production facilities so the I and E Pace are outsourced while production capacity lay empty they couldn’t use because it wasn’t flexible enough. They couldn’t produce an M3 or M5 competitor because both of their cars were not designed for the v8 or the ingenium 6 (the short run project 8 doesn’t count as a true competitor). What else shows lack of investment? The fact the f-type is 10 years old and there was no plan to replace it? The fact they haven’t updated the I Pace so it’s fallen behind where it was once ahead? There are lots of examples and unfortunately most of them are in the Jaguar side of JLR. You don’t see them cancelling the new FFRR or RRS. It’s clear there hasn’t been that much investment in Jaguar once the quest to be a British BMW at serious volume was put aside as a failure.
I’m just hoping the investment is happening now for a proper 2025 relaunch
Craig - But there were a range of V6 and V8 engines in the F-Type from day one, to which they subsequently added the 2 litre. Were these pre-Ingenium engines? I think that Ingenium was a product of the diesel era, when that was the direction in which they were pushed. If the world was going electric, what is the point in designing and building a whole new range of engines? Again, this was political interference. The F-Type was and is a fantastic car, though it should always have been aimed at the Boxster/Cayman, not the 911 market, which the XK was the tool to take on. It is a pity that they had not taken more weight out while designing the chassis. That would have made it a true world beater.
The problem Jaguar had in the days when they decided to go head to head with BMW in the saloon market, was to fail to distinguish a battle from a war. One success is not decisive. BMW do not give up, they go on. Jaguar had a superb product in the XF. Clearly they had to get on top of quality and robustness. I have had both Porsches and Jags, and the Jag build quality, even now, is not in the same league. It is a matter of sheer attention to detail. I would also say that Jaguar upholstery shows its age quite quickly - BMW does not. BMW have probably the best four and six cylinder engines in the world, IMHO. The Jag 2.7d was never a great engine, and I would highlight in particular perennial DPF problems, from which BMW do not seem to suffer. What BMW then did when the XF hit the market was to offer 0% finance deals and large manufacturer contributions. Jaguar did not, so they never got their cars as mainstream as they needed to do. The XE was a good follow-up, but IMHO they really dropped the ball with the XJ, and they did not have the resources and determination to come back from that, the line being that the world was moving from saloons to the SUV. Really? Tell BMW, Mercedes and Audi that.
As to Porsche as a marketing organisation, you can't fault them, but that marketing is not just gas, it is built on a solid long term sporting achievements, and a well deserved and jealously protected reputation for quality, robustness and reliability. Marketing on its own is valueless.
I fear that Jaguar is now being dressed up as (another) 'Ultra-Luxury' brand, with the 'Presidential' tagline. How appealing that is, in the era of Joe Biden, is a separate question. It may be that the plan is to sell Jaguar off, maybe to Geely, while retaining Land Rover, which is the moneymaking part of the operation. Then, Jaguar would become another once great brand, waiting for someone to breathe life back into it. Maybe Geely will be the people to do that.
What Jaguar was always good at was providing style and performance at a relatively affordable price. 'Grace, Space and Pace' as someone once said, not sure if it was Sir William Lyons or some PR Agency. Back in the day, Sir William Lyons could have bought BMW, but was prevented from doing so by politicians. It is a perennial British problem.
The problem Jaguar had in the days when they decided to go head to head with BMW in the saloon market, was to fail to distinguish a battle from a war. One success is not decisive. BMW do not give up, they go on. Jaguar had a superb product in the XF. Clearly they had to get on top of quality and robustness. I have had both Porsches and Jags, and the Jag build quality, even now, is not in the same league. It is a matter of sheer attention to detail. I would also say that Jaguar upholstery shows its age quite quickly - BMW does not. BMW have probably the best four and six cylinder engines in the world, IMHO. The Jag 2.7d was never a great engine, and I would highlight in particular perennial DPF problems, from which BMW do not seem to suffer. What BMW then did when the XF hit the market was to offer 0% finance deals and large manufacturer contributions. Jaguar did not, so they never got their cars as mainstream as they needed to do. The XE was a good follow-up, but IMHO they really dropped the ball with the XJ, and they did not have the resources and determination to come back from that, the line being that the world was moving from saloons to the SUV. Really? Tell BMW, Mercedes and Audi that.
As to Porsche as a marketing organisation, you can't fault them, but that marketing is not just gas, it is built on a solid long term sporting achievements, and a well deserved and jealously protected reputation for quality, robustness and reliability. Marketing on its own is valueless.
I fear that Jaguar is now being dressed up as (another) 'Ultra-Luxury' brand, with the 'Presidential' tagline. How appealing that is, in the era of Joe Biden, is a separate question. It may be that the plan is to sell Jaguar off, maybe to Geely, while retaining Land Rover, which is the moneymaking part of the operation. Then, Jaguar would become another once great brand, waiting for someone to breathe life back into it. Maybe Geely will be the people to do that.
What Jaguar was always good at was providing style and performance at a relatively affordable price. 'Grace, Space and Pace' as someone once said, not sure if it was Sir William Lyons or some PR Agency. Back in the day, Sir William Lyons could have bought BMW, but was prevented from doing so by politicians. It is a perennial British problem.
Yes I agree with that. The finance thing has always been an issue for Jaguar. It doesn’t have the volume to offer aggressive finance like the Germans could and that was the battle it was never going to win. The profit margin on the XE is 4% at wholesale price but the BMW 3 series at 3x that down to reuse of resources and sheer volume. This is what allows the big dealer contributions and the zero finance.
Back in the day the “more affordable price” focus was great with the E-type etc but I guess the world has changed and all of the Germans are now operating in that space so it would be harder for Jaguar to do that in the modern world.
The grace pace and space thing is always an interesting one. They stopped using it in 1968 but for some reason people kept it alive beyond the company itself. The origins of it are apparently pre war and it was MG that came up with it, with the words in a different order, and Lyon’s basically picked it up after the war and ran with it. To me it’s something they should have stuck with even if it was no longer strictly true. BMW has been far from the ultimate driving machine at times but the slogan has helped create an aura of sportiness even for the most mundane of models.
Back in the day the “more affordable price” focus was great with the E-type etc but I guess the world has changed and all of the Germans are now operating in that space so it would be harder for Jaguar to do that in the modern world.
The grace pace and space thing is always an interesting one. They stopped using it in 1968 but for some reason people kept it alive beyond the company itself. The origins of it are apparently pre war and it was MG that came up with it, with the words in a different order, and Lyon’s basically picked it up after the war and ran with it. To me it’s something they should have stuck with even if it was no longer strictly true. BMW has been far from the ultimate driving machine at times but the slogan has helped create an aura of sportiness even for the most mundane of models.
So TVR Griff now sold and cash burning a hole in my bank account, v8 S or R looks a good deal.
But where are all the interesting colours, blue, green, Italian red? Or was the colour palette for the car particularly limited and unexciting?
Similarly for the inside, mainly black. I’ve seen a couple in ivory but nothing else. Is a blue or green with a light interior a unicorn and I should forget it? Or do they exist and I should wait for one to appear?
Also looking at XKR 150s and a similar problem. Perhaps the early part of the 2010s was all black and white in fashion.
But where are all the interesting colours, blue, green, Italian red? Or was the colour palette for the car particularly limited and unexciting?
Similarly for the inside, mainly black. I’ve seen a couple in ivory but nothing else. Is a blue or green with a light interior a unicorn and I should forget it? Or do they exist and I should wait for one to appear?
Also looking at XKR 150s and a similar problem. Perhaps the early part of the 2010s was all black and white in fashion.
ric p said:
So TVR Griff now sold and cash burning a hole in my bank account, v8 S or R looks a good deal.
But where are all the interesting colours, blue, green, Italian red? Or was the colour palette for the car particularly limited and unexciting?
Similarly for the inside, mainly black. I’ve seen a couple in ivory but nothing else. Is a blue or green with a light interior a unicorn and I should forget it? Or do they exist and I should wait for one to appear?
Also looking at XKR 150s and a similar problem. Perhaps the early part of the 2010s was all black and white in fashion.
Depending on what year you are looking at the colour palette was very dull generally for such a car with pretty much the same colours as the saloon. Some more interesting colours were available for specific model years only such as a yellow and one year a purple but they sold in tiny numbers. A couple of years ago the SVO pallete was added with some yellows oranges and others but they were about 6k so again quite rare. Same with the interior with the choice pretty much being ivory, black, red or tan. If you were buying an R or SVR new then there was the option of paint and / or leather to sample in Porsche style but it made the Porsche offering look good value as it was £££££ so again rare as hens teeth. But where are all the interesting colours, blue, green, Italian red? Or was the colour palette for the car particularly limited and unexciting?
Similarly for the inside, mainly black. I’ve seen a couple in ivory but nothing else. Is a blue or green with a light interior a unicorn and I should forget it? Or do they exist and I should wait for one to appear?
Also looking at XKR 150s and a similar problem. Perhaps the early part of the 2010s was all black and white in fashion.
Difficult with these cars, especially the earlier models if you don't like reds, then its pretty much just Firesand, which on some days I think looks fantastic, on others it reminds me of a Derbyshire Council gritter 
For me Ultra blue is the stand out colour on some of the newer cars
I too ended up with a grey car with a black interior, still a very nice though
For me Ultra blue is the stand out colour on some of the newer cars
I too ended up with a grey car with a black interior, still a very nice though
EVOTECH3BELL said:
Still a fair amount of the same cars sitting on autotrader for most of the year so far.
Prices not really going anywhere from what I can tell.
Its a funny old time with the cost of living crisis , increasing mortgage rates etc etc . People simply aren't spending like they used to and that's before you factor in the trend towards electric vehicles . There is a black SVR Convertible in Wales been on sale for nearly two years now , at top money the owner must be heartbroken but who wants it ?Prices not really going anywhere from what I can tell.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202207077...
This is the car here , I remember looking at it when I was selling my old SVR
Edited by reddiesel on Saturday 17th June 13:14
reddiesel said:
EVOTECH3BELL said:
Still a fair amount of the same cars sitting on autotrader for most of the year so far.
Prices not really going anywhere from what I can tell.
Its a funny old time with the cost of living crisis , increasing mortgage rates etc etc . People simply aren't spending like they used to and that's before you factor in the trend towards electric vehicles . There is a black SVR Convertible in Wales been on sale for nearly two years now , at top money the owner must be heartbroken but who wants it ?Prices not really going anywhere from what I can tell.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202207077...
This is the car here , I remember looking at it when I was selling my old SVR
Edited by reddiesel on Saturday 17th June 13:14
I honestly can't work it out , perhaps its one of those occasions on Autotrader when something is actually sold and still listed as available . I have spun my way through three separate cars holding them for 4 to 5 months apiece whilst this Car has apparently remained unsold . I do think its big money for what it is .
reddiesel said:
I honestly can't work it out , perhaps its one of those occasions on Autotrader when something is actually sold and still listed as available . I have spun my way through three separate cars holding them for 4 to 5 months apiece whilst this Car has apparently remained unsold . I do think its big money for what it is .
Hes dreaming if he thinks he's going to sell the 2nd most expensive SVR on AT privately.EVOTECH3BELL said:
reddiesel said:
I honestly can't work it out , perhaps its one of those occasions on Autotrader when something is actually sold and still listed as available . I have spun my way through three separate cars holding them for 4 to 5 months apiece whilst this Car has apparently remained unsold . I do think its big money for what it is .
Hes dreaming if he thinks he's going to sell the 2nd most expensive SVR on AT privately.ninepoint2 said:
EVOTECH3BELL said:
reddiesel said:
I honestly can't work it out , perhaps its one of those occasions on Autotrader when something is actually sold and still listed as available . I have spun my way through three separate cars holding them for 4 to 5 months apiece whilst this Car has apparently remained unsold . I do think its big money for what it is .
Hes dreaming if he thinks he's going to sell the 2nd most expensive SVR on AT privately.People don’t buy cars that expensive privately, the rear wing is awful, the red detailing is awful and the photos are awful full stop as black over red usually works very well but looks awful here. It’s strong money for a pre-facelift, you could probably get a new one for around that now at the end or production.
Its interesting you raise the colour of the leather interior , red for me is a colour you have to be careful with . I only ever had something similar in a Carmine Red 911 GTS , thankfully it was more a Terracotta than an outright Red and that little contrast was just enough to make the combination work .
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