RE: Jaguar reveals new sports saloon
Discussion
Horse_Apple said:
Biccaroo said:
Mattmeister said:
i knew this would happen, Jaguar finally produce a brave, stunning, forward looking design to replace the more traditional designs (that have been routinely slagged off for the last 10 years!) and someone accuses them of 'losing their identity' - surely any 'designer' worth his salt should be able to see the more subtle Jaguar influences within this admittedly very fresh design without having to have the obviousness of the oldxk/stype/xj Jaguar styling cues shoved in his face all over again? 
....
....And which Jaguar styling cues are you referring to exactly? The chrome grill with the Jaguar badge slapped in the middle? The leaping cat on the rear? Or maybe the E-type influenced bonnet bulge? Please enlighten me. This is not a brave design. How is it brave? It’s a combination of contemporary mainstream styling, chrome and a set of revolting Hyundai inspired headlamps. There is nothing new or innovative about the exterior of this car at all.
Mattmeister said:
…without having to have the obviousness of the oldxk/stype/xj Jaguar styling cues shoved in his face all over again? ....
....So what you are saying then is that the E-type, C-type, XK120/140/150, Mk VIII, Mark 2, XKC, etc should be forgotten? Were their stunning looks too ‘obvious’ for you as you put it? Is it wrong of me to wish for Jaguar to build cars with looks inspired by such wonderful machinery instead of the slab-sided bulk we see before us today? I am not a big fan of the S-type, but I respect it all the same because it looks like a Jaguar.
Jaguar should not disregard their heritage. The C-XF does just that and I defy you to justify its styling to me.
Hi Bicarro,
Just a quick thought. The models that you list were certainly beautiful and many argue that the E Type was their pinnacle.
However, can you recall what their cars looked like before the earliest model that you list?
Sometimes you need to break away from the old to break into the new territory.
Jaguar have done it a couple of times already with great success. Their first cars didn't carry many of the styling cues of the earlier sidecars and the cars you list broke away from the early cars.
This is a company that in the past had no trouble breaking away from its heritage and in doing so managed to create new rules and definitions of greatness.
Whether this car and the XK is the right move, the sales figures will tell us but I don't think we should be up in arms about styling changes too much.
This whole argument is getting a bit silly.
If you want 100% styling heritage only then all you need to do is beef up the A-pillars a bit to make it pass modern crash requirements and copy the body again.
Oh, wait a minute, they have already done that on X350. A truely excellent car with some great features but selling poorly because it loks EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE OLD ONE!. In the USA in particular (Jags biggest market btw), this does not fly as even MY changes need to be visual for golf club bragging rights of 'mine's newer than yours'.
I am all for design heritage, it is important to know where you have come from, but you can become so obsessed with the past that you cannot focus on the future. It is possible to get a happy medium between the 2. I have seen the X250 (S type replacement) about a year ago and I thought it looked really good. Speak to any engineer at Jag and they are all really excited about it. Callum describes it as some of the best work he has ever done (he of the DB7 and Vanquish cv).
Some people on here are annoying me trying to pick little faults in it saying its got the lights of this or the arse of that. It, in my opinion, is an excellent looking car that will help Jag loose its old man image. BMW went radical and haven't looked back. Apart from the kidney bean grill what is there heritage wise on there?
They need to do this and I support them 10000000000000%.
People, and styles, have moved on. Deal with it or buy a classic car.
Horse_Apple said:
Sometimes you need to break away from the old to break into the new territory.
Jaguar have done it a couple of times already with great success. Their first cars didn't carry many of the styling cues of the earlier sidecars and the cars you list broke away from the early cars.
This is a company that in the past had no trouble breaking away from its heritage and in doing so managed to create new rules and definitions of greatness.
Whether this car and the XK is the right move, the sales figures will tell us but I don't think we should be up in arms about styling changes too much.
Jaguar have in the past moved radically in their styling.
The XK120 was a radical departure from the SS100, it's stunning styling was said to have been loosely influenced by the BMW 328 (although not to much IMHO), this design family passed through the XK140 to reach it's zenith/nadir
with the XK150. But by 1960 that design was past it's sell by date. All change
Along comes the E-Type. Yes there are subtle styling clues that are carried over into the E but it's clearly a radical departure from the XK150. It can instead trace it's styling back to the D-Type race car and it's XK-SS off shoot. The D-Type design is a major departure from the earlier C-Type, even taking XKC054 as the link. Cs and Ds are radically different.
With the saloons, the post war models progress from the MkV through MkVII (Bentley beat them to using 6), MkVIII and finally the MkIX (Have you seen the stunning one in Classic and Sports Car this month
) again the design style reaches it's limit. All change
The replacement, the MkX is a total departure. Spotting the family resemblance is not easy even now when we would instantly recognise the MkX as a Jaguar.
With the compact saloons, this was an all new design and an all new market for Jaguar. OK there are styling clues linking them to the XK but more with the XK150 which came after not before. The original compact saloon got updated to the Mk2 and eventually gave birth to the S-Type. Even here by the mid 60s it was past it's hay day, the Mk2 was no longer the sporting super saloon it had been in 1960 when you would have been hard pressed to find many thoroughbred sports cars that could keep up with a 3.8MOD. When Jaguar updated the line the 3.8 was dropped, the baby 2.4 became the 240, the mid-range 3.4 became the 340 but their was no 380 and most cars were now autos with power steering. For the S-Type the 4.2 derivative (420) dropped the curvy styling that is so loved today. They moved to the squared off front style introduced with the MkX.
At the end of the 60s all the saloon lines were drawn together with the XJ. OK here there is a family progression from MkX (later the 420G) and the 420, but it was very much an updated styling, just look at the press comments from the time, it was largely love at first sight. But you can bet there were still customers hankering after an update to their MkIXs, perhaps that gave an extra impetus to the DS420.
By the time we reach the 70s the Series 3 E-Type is a very different animal to the original flat floored, Moss boxed E-Type. A grown up GT not a stripped out sports car. It's playing in a different niche is a wholly different market place. Again it had clearly had it's day. The market place wanted something different (but hell they also wore flares so who would trust their sense of taste)
All change
Along comes the XJS. Again a radical departure from the E-Type. Doesn't carry over clues from either the E or the XJ. Ten years after it ceased production it's starting to become fashionable again. A good XJS always was a superb GT. but after over 20 years in production it's not surprising that it went out of fashion. But I'm still kicking myself for not having bought one of the run out V12 convertibles, when Ford's money had allowed Jaguar to really produce a convertible that worked.
All change
Now we get the XK8, this was Jaguars first car that deliberately harked back to earlier styling clues that the company had left behind it. The X300 (94/95 XJ) was still clearly a development of the original XJ so I wouldn't count that as being retro, and I certainly never heard it being panned for it's styling. X308 brought new engines, but you need to be an anorak to be able to tell them apart and the customer base still loved the style. These are still beautiful looking cars. What they did get criticised for was things like rear space, headroom, being so beautifully low to the ground. X350 tried to give customers what they'd asked for. They asked for a new X308 with more... and to my mind they killed the bits everyone liked. You can't be low and sleek and cat like and have lots of headroom and ...etc.
To my mind Jaguar has reached all change time again. They've done it before. They need to do something really new. We will have to wait and see whether what they choose to do works when it hits the street. It's still a year away. Tastes will change in that year. We will have to wait and see how much of XF-C makes it into XK production. The spy shots seem to suggest that that real car will be less the four door coupe - I think that is a pity.
Horse_Apple said:
Sometimes you need to break away from the old to break into the new territory.
And what new territory have they broken into apart from their parent's?
schmooveboy said:
BMW went radical and haven't looked back. Apart from the kidney bean grill what is there heritage wise on there?
"Hockey-stick" window line?..proportions?.... and THEIR new territory (like it or loathe it) WAS new.
You don't need to fascimile old design (unless its a DS, E-Type GT40 etc) to pay homage to your history - RD6
But if you're gonna break out....make sure you actually have and ideally use somone other than Callum... despite being beautifull its "same again" styling won't age well...
agoogy said:
[quote=Horse_Apple]
"Hockey-stick" window line?..proportions?.... and THEIR new territory (like it or loathe it) WAS new.
You don't need to fascimile old design (unless its a DS, E-Type GT40 etc) to pay homage to your history - RD6
But if you're gonna break out....make sure you actually have and ideally use somone other than Callum... despite being beautifull its "same again" styling won't age well...
"Hockey-stick" window line?..proportions?.... and THEIR new territory (like it or loathe it) WAS new.
You don't need to fascimile old design (unless its a DS, E-Type GT40 etc) to pay homage to your history - RD6
But if you're gonna break out....make sure you actually have and ideally use somone other than Callum... despite being beautifull its "same again" styling won't age well...
Don't know enough about BMW design beyond the kidney's to comment.
Only time will tell if the design will age well (I for one think it will).
Besides, all we have seen is the conceptual exterior styline. I will make further judgements when we know how it drives, what the interior looks like, how the fit and finish is and how hte whole package fits together.
I for one am excited about Jags prospects now this car will be released.
Besides, even if it turns out to be a dog (which it wont), in the words of Leonard Cohen "the cracks allow the light to shine through" (or words to that effect).
Biccaroo said:
Mattmeister said:
i knew this would happen, Jaguar finally produce a brave, stunning, forward looking design to replace the more traditional designs (that have been routinely slagged off for the last 10 years!) and someone accuses them of 'losing their identity' - surely any 'designer' worth his salt should be able to see the more subtle Jaguar influences within this admittedly very fresh design without having to have the obviousness of the oldxk/stype/xj Jaguar styling cues shoved in his face all over again? ....
....And which Jaguar styling cues are you referring to exactly? The chrome grill with the Jaguar badge slapped in the middle? The leaping cat on the rear? Or maybe the E-type influenced bonnet bulge? Please enlighten me. This is not a brave design. How is it brave? It’s a combination of contemporary mainstream styling, chrome and a set of revolting Hyundai inspired headlamps. There is nothing new or innovative about the exterior of this car at all.
Mattmeister said:
…without having to have the obviousness of the oldxk/stype/xj Jaguar styling cues shoved in his face all over again? ....
....So what you are saying then is that the E-type, C-type, XK120/140/150, Mk VIII, Mark 2, XKC, etc should be forgotten? Were their stunning looks too ‘obvious’ for you as you put it? Is it wrong of me to wish for Jaguar to build cars with looks inspired by such wonderful machinery instead of the slab-sided bulk we see before us today? I am not a big fan of the S-type, but I respect it all the same because it looks like a Jaguar.
Jaguar should not disregard their heritage. The C-XF does just that and I defy you to justify its styling to me.
well as you seem to have got excited enough about this to 'defy me'(what is this? the middle ages?
) i guess i should respond before you slap my cheek with a white glove and challenge me to pistols at dawn 
.....although it seems some people have beaten me to it... you yourself have answered your own question by mentioning the bonnet bulge and the grille which not only echoes the original XJ6 tapered rectangle shape and inset mesh but also the position of the badge in the upper centre...(i guess YOU would need it to have a chrome eggcrate and centre line to be 'recognisable'?) i could add to that the double curve over the twin headlamps (which hyundai are these inspired by? please enlighten me?), chrome rear 'signature' strip above the numberplate....i could go on but you obviously dont like the design so ill leave you to your opinion which you are of course entitled to- as i said before if everyone liked it it would have to be bland/inoffensive and i think Jaguar need to set some new trends not re-hash old ones...
Mattmeister said:
i knew this would happen, Jaguar finally produce a brave, stunning, forward looking design to replace the more traditional designs (that have been routinely slagged off for the last 10 years!) and someone accuses them of 'losing their identity' - surely any 'designer' worth his salt should be able to see the more subtle Jaguar influences within this admittedly very fresh design without having to have the obviousness of the oldxk/stype/xj Jaguar styling cues shoved in his face all over again? ....
....Right on there... although it has been stated in previous posts let me just nail it home...
this IMO is totally recognizable as a Jag -
The grille looks XJ6 influenced (Ian Cullum himself said that he 'learned everything about design from the XJ6' ...something along those lines so this new grille being XJ6 inspired I thought would be obvious)
The headlights are, to me, a steady evolution from the S-type, the R-D6 concept (in which the two oval lamps were connected) with a hint of the new XK about them in this XF
The bonnet is classic Jag with that E-type budge thats been there in most Jags since...
The roofline is the most radical departure from previous Jags but its the way of the future for all 4-door cars and, in this case, is gracefully executed.
The tail lamps to me are not dissimilar to the new XK as well - another spin on a similar style.
I can't believe this would have a few people bent outta shape - the fact is its gorgeous and IMO purely Jag...
wow though... now imagine how these few people will react when the new XJ rolls around which is said to be another 'radical' departure from tradition... and this said tradition being a longer-standing and generally more loved one than the S-type
Edited by 604 on Friday 5th January 06:51
Here is the WIC loom (the X shape thing on top)...
http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?im
http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?im
Edited by cqueen on Friday 5th January 07:18
Edited by cqueen on Friday 5th January 07:18
604 said:
Mattmeister said:
i knew this would happen, Jaguar finally produce a brave, stunning, forward looking design to replace the more traditional designs (that have been routinely slagged off for the last 10 years!) and someone accuses them of 'losing their identity' - surely any 'designer' worth his salt should be able to see the more subtle Jaguar influences within this admittedly very fresh design without having to have the obviousness of the oldxk/stype/xj Jaguar styling cues shoved in his face all over again? ....
....Right on there... although it has been stated in previous posts let me just nail it home...
this IMO is totally recognizable as a Jag -
The grille looks XJ6 influenced (Ian Cullum himself said that he 'learned everything about design from the XJ6' ...something along those lines so this new grille being XJ6 inspired I thought would be obvious)
The headlights are, to me, a steady evolution from the S-type, the R-D6 concept (in which the two oval lamps were connected) with a hint of the new XK about them in this XF
The bonnet is classic Jag with that E-type budge thats been there in most Jags since...
The roofline is the most radical departure from previous Jags but its the way of the future for all 4-door cars and, in this case, is gracefully executed.
The tail lamps to me are not dissimilar to the new XK as well - another spin on a similar style.
I can't believe this would have a few people bent outta shape - the fact is its gorgeous and IMO purely Jag...
wow though... now imagine how these few people will react when the new XJ rolls around which is said to be another 'radical' departure from tradition... and this said tradition being a longer-standing and generally more loved one than the S-type
Edited by 604 on Friday 5th January 06:51
I agree and I am sure you could have the roof vinyled to give it that real XJ6 feel
john_r said:
........one or two things which were irrelevant to the thread topic........and
Still... I did like having a jag though!
And your cars are? - there's nothing on your profile?
The core thread comments surrounded the appeal - or otherwise - of the styling exercise as it stands.
What has my profile, and the number and type of cars I have, anything to do with that....?
RingSpanner said:
What has my profile, and the number and type of cars I have, anything to do with that....?
Some people on here are snobs and like to judge others by the metal they own/have owned - if you've not had any cars that in their eyes are 'good', then your opinion doesn't count!
604 said:
I can't believe this would have a few people bent outta shape - the fact is its gorgeous and IMO purely Jag...
IMO YO is delusional...purely Jag? the detail may be spun and linked to the classics, but please look at the whole?
604 said:
wow though... now imagine how these few people will react when the new XJ rolls around which is said to be another 'radical' departure from tradition... and this said tradition being a longer-standing and generally more loved one than the S-type
Personally I have no problem with radical departures with tradition, its plagarism I don't like, and paying lip service to current stylistic trends and previous efforts rather than carving out something NEW and FRESH....
been reading CAR and they have a 5 page spread on the c-xf, looks even better in there pics, cars are all personal tastes, I love everything about this new jag, I love the old shapes as well (i have a series 1 XJ6) but jaguar have to move on,
I couldn't care less if I don't know what make it is when I look at it, its a beautiful car & an added bonus that its a jag.
I truly hope the spy shots are of another car or I will be bitterly disappointed if it turns into a boring 4 door saloon, come on jaguar give us what we want (well most of us anyway)
And to people that don't like the XF there is a very very simple solution......... don't buy one, the S type will drop loads in price when (if) this comes out...
but I think you will kick yourself when this sleek cat pulls up next to you at the lights.
I couldn't care less if I don't know what make it is when I look at it, its a beautiful car & an added bonus that its a jag.
I truly hope the spy shots are of another car or I will be bitterly disappointed if it turns into a boring 4 door saloon, come on jaguar give us what we want (well most of us anyway)
And to people that don't like the XF there is a very very simple solution......... don't buy one, the S type will drop loads in price when (if) this comes out...
but I think you will kick yourself when this sleek cat pulls up next to you at the lights.
agoogy said:
Personally I have no problem with radical departures with tradition, its plagarism I don't like, and paying lip service to current stylistic trends and previous efforts rather than carving out something NEW and FRESH....
looking at automotive design and its history, there have been only a handful of cars which I would consider 'new and fresh' ...The Muira, E-type, Countach... along those lines
I agree that this Jag is by no means new and fresh - its Jag's spin on a modern trend with 4-door cars (and I disagree that the CLS was the first of its kind... Id give that title to the old Audi A6). But I would say its unmistakably Jag still and I dont see any sort of... forged design cues.
But each to their own in the end I suppose...
Edited by 604 on Saturday 6th January 05:03
It is so interesting reading these observations I'm sure the folks at Jaguar are very interested what the public thinks. I saw the C-XF in the metal in November, see whatcar.co.uk, and it is stunning though I realise that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It is a departure for Jaguar design and take the badges off you'd struggle to recognise it as one. However would a Mk VII owner see the Mk2 (as in Inspector Morse car)as a step in the right direction? Would the Mk2 owner have seen the Series 1 XJ in the same light? Does it matter?
I had also seen the ALC before the XK was launched and if the XF ( S-Type replacement) is as close to the C-XF as the ALC was to the XK then we're safe they are going to build 9 tenths of what you've seen.
As with most cars the photographs do not do it justice, in three dimensions you get the scale and the stance of the thing and it blows away anything by Mercedes, BMW, or Audi.
Unfortunatley the photographs of the producton model testing all seem to be the S-Type mule which has had a new front grafted on and so do not give much of a clue as to the production car, though expect normal door handles and a higher roof line, possibly a longer wheelbase as the actual car will based on the current S-Type platform, no bad thing according to those people who know about driving. Except maybe these http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline
Proof will be in the quality and marketing, if they can build it right and market it right it will sell. If it drives right, and most Jaguar's do including the X-Type ( try driving any Jaguar back to back with its competition and you'll see what I mean ) hopefully th car magazines will not condem it for silly reasons i.e. it hasn't got a BMW badge on it, a rock hard ride which is mistaken by most people as being sporty or the absolute minimum 0-60 time which means nothing in the real world!
I'm an XJ fan having owned 2, but I'm getting tired of the rehashed design and if the next XJ has some of the new design seen in the C-XF that will be a winner, it's one of the most technologically advanced cars on the road, light and economical for its size as its all alluminium but condemend by its looks. I still think it looks better than a Merc S Class or a BMW 7 but then I did say its in the eye of the beholder.
I wish Jaguar every success with the new XF when launched and sincerely hope it doesn't change too much from the concept, its too late now the final design will have been frozen months ago!
I had also seen the ALC before the XK was launched and if the XF ( S-Type replacement) is as close to the C-XF as the ALC was to the XK then we're safe they are going to build 9 tenths of what you've seen.
As with most cars the photographs do not do it justice, in three dimensions you get the scale and the stance of the thing and it blows away anything by Mercedes, BMW, or Audi.
Unfortunatley the photographs of the producton model testing all seem to be the S-Type mule which has had a new front grafted on and so do not give much of a clue as to the production car, though expect normal door handles and a higher roof line, possibly a longer wheelbase as the actual car will based on the current S-Type platform, no bad thing according to those people who know about driving. Except maybe these http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline
Proof will be in the quality and marketing, if they can build it right and market it right it will sell. If it drives right, and most Jaguar's do including the X-Type ( try driving any Jaguar back to back with its competition and you'll see what I mean ) hopefully th car magazines will not condem it for silly reasons i.e. it hasn't got a BMW badge on it, a rock hard ride which is mistaken by most people as being sporty or the absolute minimum 0-60 time which means nothing in the real world!
I'm an XJ fan having owned 2, but I'm getting tired of the rehashed design and if the next XJ has some of the new design seen in the C-XF that will be a winner, it's one of the most technologically advanced cars on the road, light and economical for its size as its all alluminium but condemend by its looks. I still think it looks better than a Merc S Class or a BMW 7 but then I did say its in the eye of the beholder.
I wish Jaguar every success with the new XF when launched and sincerely hope it doesn't change too much from the concept, its too late now the final design will have been frozen months ago!
Edited by chrispinkney on Saturday 6th January 14:14
Edited by chrispinkney on Saturday 6th January 14:47
chrispinkney said:
If it drives right, and most Jaguar's do including the X-Type ( try driving any Jaguar back to back with its competition and you'll see what I mean )
I have (X-Type), and the only version that's even close to the E46 3-series as a proper 'sporting' saloon is the 3.0 Sport...and even there the only area it has the 325i Sport beaten is ride quality. Performance of the X-Type 3.0 is barely any better than the 325i, feedback less, poise not quite there (but reasonable), and responsiveness less. Brakes are unexceptional too.
Don't get me wrong...it's a competent car. But I drove an ST220 and found that felt quicker and more fun to hustle along.
Conversely, a friend has an S-Type 3.0 manual (forget what spec), and loves it, is having trouble deciding what to replace it with (he doesn't do auto-boxes).
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