E-type running costs?
Discussion
Finally I have saved enough to buy a nice car, still considering a few cars but I really like e-types (who doesn't) I already did a bit of research on e-type, and I think the one to go for in my case would be a series 1 roadster, but which one the 3.8 or 4.2? I have read that the 4.2 is smoother to drive and less, dare I say, raucous.
Main point would be running costs, it's just a sunday's car but anyway is it affordable for someone who is perhaps a little less fortunate?
well I hope you can help!
Main point would be running costs, it's just a sunday's car but anyway is it affordable for someone who is perhaps a little less fortunate?
well I hope you can help!
falcemob said:
What do you mean by "less fortunate"?
Haha, I already expected this to come :-) I'm not one 40k+ earner, I, how shall I put it, I had a bit of luck! So that's why it has to be not ridiculously expensive to run, like supercar money or something!
By the way do you think they will keep it's value in the years to come or drop because there are quite a lot on the market?
If immediately prior to the purchase of an E-Type you are asking for advice on the relative merits of the 3.8 vis a vis the 4.1 then I would suggest that you need to spend considerable more time in researching the cars. They are expensive to buy & expensive to maintain & there are fundamental differences between the two. For example while both have covered headlights the 4.1 has a better cooling system, improved brakes & seating & a superior gear box (does away with the infamous Moss box). These represent major improvements over the 3.8.
A good means of becoming familiar with the subject is to join the Jaguar Enthusiasts Club which is the biggest & most go ahead Jaguar Club in the World.
As far as running costs are concerned they are considerable (& I speak as the owner for the last 7 years of a Series 2 Roadster). One is driving a 40 to 45 year old car which was never built to last this period of time. A pre -purchase inspection by a reputable expert is essential. This will at least give some warning as to potential problems. Rust can be a major problem & is often difficult to identify but horrendously expensive to correct. A bare metal respray can cost up to 8000 pounds while an engine rebuild will be in the region of 3000 pounds. Insurance with Footman James via the JEC costs 300 pounds fully comprehensive.
I get about 25 MPG but this is with an upgraded 5 speed gear box, you will be lucky to get 18. An E-Type with a 4 speed gear box drinks oil & my annual maintenance costs approxamate to 1000 pounds. However this does depend on the condition of the car at the time of purchase & how often you use the car. Put it away in October & take it out again in April & you will have expensive problems (brakes, battery, fluids, hoses, tyres - you name it & it will fail when not regularly used). However if (as I do) drive the car approx 30 miles every 3/4 weeks) then in the natural course of usage things will also fail.(i.e. you cant win!) And parts are very expensive to buy & often badly made.
In summary the costs relating to running a Jaguar will be higher than you expect & will never stop. You will never (except for a short time) get the car in such a condition that it requires minimal work since something is almost always failing (rememeber its a 40 to 45 year old car) This may sound alarmist but they are also reflected in the comments that other Jaguar E Type Owners have made to me.
However dont let me discourage you. The car is fantastic & is greeted wherever I go. I always remember a couple of years ago in France a woman shouted at me "Hallo beautiful" & she was´nt referring to me!
A good means of becoming familiar with the subject is to join the Jaguar Enthusiasts Club which is the biggest & most go ahead Jaguar Club in the World.
As far as running costs are concerned they are considerable (& I speak as the owner for the last 7 years of a Series 2 Roadster). One is driving a 40 to 45 year old car which was never built to last this period of time. A pre -purchase inspection by a reputable expert is essential. This will at least give some warning as to potential problems. Rust can be a major problem & is often difficult to identify but horrendously expensive to correct. A bare metal respray can cost up to 8000 pounds while an engine rebuild will be in the region of 3000 pounds. Insurance with Footman James via the JEC costs 300 pounds fully comprehensive.
I get about 25 MPG but this is with an upgraded 5 speed gear box, you will be lucky to get 18. An E-Type with a 4 speed gear box drinks oil & my annual maintenance costs approxamate to 1000 pounds. However this does depend on the condition of the car at the time of purchase & how often you use the car. Put it away in October & take it out again in April & you will have expensive problems (brakes, battery, fluids, hoses, tyres - you name it & it will fail when not regularly used). However if (as I do) drive the car approx 30 miles every 3/4 weeks) then in the natural course of usage things will also fail.(i.e. you cant win!) And parts are very expensive to buy & often badly made.
In summary the costs relating to running a Jaguar will be higher than you expect & will never stop. You will never (except for a short time) get the car in such a condition that it requires minimal work since something is almost always failing (rememeber its a 40 to 45 year old car) This may sound alarmist but they are also reflected in the comments that other Jaguar E Type Owners have made to me.
However dont let me discourage you. The car is fantastic & is greeted wherever I go. I always remember a couple of years ago in France a woman shouted at me "Hallo beautiful" & she was´nt referring to me!
Have you tried sitting in one yet. Only when I sat in an early 3.8 roadster a few weeks ago, I was looking clear over the top of the windscreen. I just 6' tall (about 1.84M)
When you look at buying one, make sure that the body work is in good shape. Fixing a knackered body could bankrupt Bill Gates.
Series 1 cars tend to be the most sort after and hence cost most.
Series 3 come next.
Series 2 tends to be the cheapest. They don't have to be strangled for the US market place. Octane recently had an article about E-Types and recommended these as being the best buy for regular usage.
I'd try and find a dealer who has a wide selection and go and see as many as you can. Find out why some cost a lot more than others do and try and find out what might work best for you. Sorry I can't recommend any in the Netherlands. Racing Green Cars who are advertised on the top of this webpage as I type have a good selection over here in the UK and Peter Hugo there seems pretty good, they'd all be RHD though so not much use to you I guess.
E-Types are unlikely to ever go out of fashion. If the whole classic car market dies, then E-Types will go down in value for a while. People aren't doing the stupid things they were in the 90s when it all went tits up. If you buy a reasonably good car, and it doesn't seriously deteriorate in your ownership then it's unlikely to go down in value. Don't forget that if you buy one from a dealer that part of what you pay is his wages and running costs, the rest might represent the value of the car. The flip side of buying from a dealer is that if you use a reputable one they are unlikely to sell you a really bad car. A private seller might, even though it's probably not intentional. If you really know what you are doing then great, else a dealer can lend of a lot of comfort. A bad E-Type can be a serious money pit.
Good luck.
Also, this might not be the best time to be looking. A lot will have been put away for winter and dealers might not want to get good ones out onto potentially salty roads.
Cheers
Ken
When you look at buying one, make sure that the body work is in good shape. Fixing a knackered body could bankrupt Bill Gates.
Series 1 cars tend to be the most sort after and hence cost most.
Series 3 come next.
Series 2 tends to be the cheapest. They don't have to be strangled for the US market place. Octane recently had an article about E-Types and recommended these as being the best buy for regular usage.
I'd try and find a dealer who has a wide selection and go and see as many as you can. Find out why some cost a lot more than others do and try and find out what might work best for you. Sorry I can't recommend any in the Netherlands. Racing Green Cars who are advertised on the top of this webpage as I type have a good selection over here in the UK and Peter Hugo there seems pretty good, they'd all be RHD though so not much use to you I guess.
E-Types are unlikely to ever go out of fashion. If the whole classic car market dies, then E-Types will go down in value for a while. People aren't doing the stupid things they were in the 90s when it all went tits up. If you buy a reasonably good car, and it doesn't seriously deteriorate in your ownership then it's unlikely to go down in value. Don't forget that if you buy one from a dealer that part of what you pay is his wages and running costs, the rest might represent the value of the car. The flip side of buying from a dealer is that if you use a reputable one they are unlikely to sell you a really bad car. A private seller might, even though it's probably not intentional. If you really know what you are doing then great, else a dealer can lend of a lot of comfort. A bad E-Type can be a serious money pit.
Good luck.
Also, this might not be the best time to be looking. A lot will have been put away for winter and dealers might not want to get good ones out onto potentially salty roads.
Cheers
Ken
Thanks for all these replies, great! I have been going through my father's copy of "Auto Motor Klassik". A german magazine which doesn't seem to be around anymore, sadly! also there was a nice article in classic & sports car a while ago which was great I will go through that as well tonight.
I will get back to you tommorow!
I will get back to you tommorow!
I had a Series 3 V-12 E-Type for a couple of years which suited me fine being a little larger. After sorting out one or two minor problems (burnt out ignition amplifier, wrong coil) and learning not to let it overheat, it never gave me anything approaching a problem cost no more to run and service than a modern car and frankly I'm sorry I sold it. My advice is buy as good a one as you can, one that has had the problems dealt with and is in genuinely good condition. I agree with the suggestion of getting on to the JEC.
If you are going to modify it to handle and perform like current sports cars, race it or embark on a serious restoration then good luck buddy because you will need it, along with some deep pockets.
If you are going to modify it to handle and perform like current sports cars, race it or embark on a serious restoration then good luck buddy because you will need it, along with some deep pockets.
I have been going through the magazines as you done more research on the e-type and I think you're probaply right by saying that these cars can be an absolute pain in the arse when they're not in good condition I think I could afford one in a good condition. Thing is however I'm also looking at other maybe a newish tvr or a lotus would be great or maybe do a bit of racing. I really should carefully consider my options (which I have been doing for quite a while 
) before I go and buy something.
Is that moss gearbox really that awful in the 3.8? Was it not a unit better suited for racing than the road?
) before I go and buy something. Is that moss gearbox really that awful in the 3.8? Was it not a unit better suited for racing than the road?
E-Type 3.8 series one = pretty car with fine lines goes well handles poorly and you need a ships anchor to stop it (unless you throw about £4k+ at it)
Series 2 4.2 less pretty with open eyes and rear lights under bumper in my opinoin drives better, nearly stops, but much easier to live with.
Series 3 V12 only (unless you can find one of the only 3x 4.2's) effortless smooth cruise machine with the best orchestra sound ever (you'll never switch on the radio with the sound of a healthy V12) steering bit too light, does stop but needs usually the ride making a bit firmer.
Have had over 15 of these elegant cars and even Enzo Ferrari stated it as "the most beautifull car ever made" P.S Think he was right this time he just forgot about his own 250GTO
Series 2 4.2 less pretty with open eyes and rear lights under bumper in my opinoin drives better, nearly stops, but much easier to live with.
Series 3 V12 only (unless you can find one of the only 3x 4.2's) effortless smooth cruise machine with the best orchestra sound ever (you'll never switch on the radio with the sound of a healthy V12) steering bit too light, does stop but needs usually the ride making a bit firmer.
Have had over 15 of these elegant cars and even Enzo Ferrari stated it as "the most beautifull car ever made" P.S Think he was right this time he just forgot about his own 250GTO
Edited by 600m on Wednesday 10th January 01:09
kurtiejjj said:
Is that moss gearbox really that awful in the 3.8? Was it not a unit better suited for racing than the road?
Depends what you want out of the Moss box. If you want easy then no, it's a nearly 60year old design. There is no synchro on 1st or reverse. The synchro on 2nd is weak. 3rd and 4th should be fine. The XK engine is very torquey, makes modern engines seem dull at low revs. So 1st really is just for starting from a standstill. Don't forget that Jaguar used to benchmark the cars by timing them 0-100MPG in top gear.
If you can double de-clutch you can slot it into 1st on the move, otherwise forget it... just remember not to try or it makes embarrassing noises when you try to slot it into 1st whilst approaching roundabouts etc... but you really don't need to because of the torque curve.
If you are buying a classic car because you want the challenge and reward then the Moss box is great. Get it right and it feels great.
I've been driving my XK150 for a little over a year and certainly would not claim to have mastered the gear box. I still make the odd mistake, I've still got things to learn. Would I change it? NO! It's very satisfying to drive. I love the noise from the straight cut first gear. I love the totally mechanical feel of the gears engaging and disengaging. I love the feeling that it's me doing this. I don't object when I get it wrong, because I know it's ME that has done it. I also don't mind that sometimes it's a pain to get it into 1st or reverse, if the gears have stopped in the wrong place. With 1st you can usually select 2nd and then move straight forward into 1st OK, if that doesn't work just lift of the clutch of a moment in neutral and try again. Those I look upon as personality traits you just have to live with. I don't except the car to be every day transport.
The box is supposed to be incredibly strong. I guess like the rest of the car it depends on whether you get a good one.
The later E-Types (4.2 onwards I think) got a new all synchro box. A good one of these also feels nice and it certainly easier to drive.
Good luck finding a car, what ever way you decide to go.
pbsaxman said:
a8hex said:
Don't forget that Jaguar used to benchmark the cars by timing them 0-100MPG in top gear.
Hey Ken, thats some test 0-100MPG
No wonder Jayne costs so much 
Did you mean 0-100MPH perchance
OK Pete, so it's too early in the morning. 
BTW Autocar timed the XK150 top gear 0->100MPH in 1958 at 36s.
How many gallons to the mile is the Noble managing now? I didn't notice a boost gauge to say how fast it's draining the tank.
Edited by a8hex on Wednesday 10th January 10:58
a8hex said:
pbsaxman said:
a8hex said:
Don't forget that Jaguar used to benchmark the cars by timing them 0-100MPG in top gear.
Hey Ken, thats some test 0-100MPG
No wonder Jayne costs so much Did you mean 0-100MPH perchance
OK Pete, so it's too early in the morning. BTW Autocar timed the XK150 top gear 0->100MPH in 1958 at 36s.
How many gallons to the mile is the Noble managing now? I didn't notice a boost gauge to say how fast it's draining the tank.
Edited by a8hex on Wednesday 10th January 10:58
Been out this morning in the sun and on dry roads and drained over .25 of a tank in 32 miles
Oops don't tell Hilary ps Sorry for the thread hi-jack
a8hex said:
kurtiejjj said:
Is that moss gearbox really that awful in the 3.8? Was it not a unit better suited for racing than the road?
Depends what you want out of the Moss box. If you want easy then no, it's a nearly 60year old design. There is no synchro on 1st or reverse. The synchro on 2nd is weak. 3rd and 4th should be fine. The XK engine is very torquey, makes modern engines seem dull at low revs. So 1st really is just for starting from a standstill. Don't forget that Jaguar used to benchmark the cars by timing them 0-100MPG in top gear.
If you can double de-clutch you can slot it into 1st on the move, otherwise forget it... just remember not to try or it makes embarrassing noises when you try to slot it into 1st whilst approaching roundabouts etc... but you really don't need to because of the torque curve.
If you are buying a classic car because you want the challenge and reward then the Moss box is great. Get it right and it feels great.
I've been driving my XK150 for a little over a year and certainly would not claim to have mastered the gear box. I still make the odd mistake, I've still got things to learn. Would I change it? NO! It's very satisfying to drive. I love the noise from the straight cut first gear. I love the totally mechanical feel of the gears engaging and disengaging. I love the feeling that it's me doing this. I don't object when I get it wrong, because I know it's ME that has done it. I also don't mind that sometimes it's a pain to get it into 1st or reverse, if the gears have stopped in the wrong place. With 1st you can usually select 2nd and then move straight forward into 1st OK, if that doesn't work just lift of the clutch of a moment in neutral and try again. Those I look upon as personality traits you just have to live with. I don't except the car to be every day transport.
The box is supposed to be incredibly strong. I guess like the rest of the car it depends on whether you get a good one.
The later E-Types (4.2 onwards I think) got a new all synchro box. A good one of these also feels nice and it certainly easier to drive.
Good luck finding a car, what ever way you decide to go.
I have a series I 3.8 and it is a true drivers car. The above analysis of the moss box is correct - it is not easy - neither is the handling for that matter or the brakes but it gives real vintage handling and is great fun.
It does go wrong and there do seem to be some niggles. Personally I want triple webbers on mine but that is going to mean we need to uprate the brakes all round and do other stuff - so pretty expensive operation!
The easy option would be to have a 4.2
coco h said:
a8hex said:
kurtiejjj said:
Is that moss gearbox really that awful in the 3.8? Was it not a unit better suited for racing than the road?
Depends what you want out of the Moss box. If you want easy then no, it's a nearly 60year old design. There is no synchro on 1st or reverse. The synchro on 2nd is weak. 3rd and 4th should be fine. The XK engine is very torquey, makes modern engines seem dull at low revs. So 1st really is just for starting from a standstill. Don't forget that Jaguar used to benchmark the cars by timing them 0-100MPG in top gear.
If you can double de-clutch you can slot it into 1st on the move, otherwise forget it... just remember not to try or it makes embarrassing noises when you try to slot it into 1st whilst approaching roundabouts etc... but you really don't need to because of the torque curve.
If you are buying a classic car because you want the challenge and reward then the Moss box is great. Get it right and it feels great.
I've been driving my XK150 for a little over a year and certainly would not claim to have mastered the gear box. I still make the odd mistake, I've still got things to learn. Would I change it? NO! It's very satisfying to drive. I love the noise from the straight cut first gear. I love the totally mechanical feel of the gears engaging and disengaging. I love the feeling that it's me doing this. I don't object when I get it wrong, because I know it's ME that has done it. I also don't mind that sometimes it's a pain to get it into 1st or reverse, if the gears have stopped in the wrong place. With 1st you can usually select 2nd and then move straight forward into 1st OK, if that doesn't work just lift of the clutch of a moment in neutral and try again. Those I look upon as personality traits you just have to live with. I don't except the car to be every day transport.
The box is supposed to be incredibly strong. I guess like the rest of the car it depends on whether you get a good one.
The later E-Types (4.2 onwards I think) got a new all synchro box. A good one of these also feels nice and it certainly easier to drive.
Good luck finding a car, what ever way you decide to go.
I have a series I 3.8 and it is a true drivers car. The above analysis of the moss box is correct - it is not easy - neither is the handling for that matter or the brakes but it gives real vintage handling and is great fun.
It does go wrong and there do seem to be some niggles. Personally I want triple webbers on mine but that is going to mean we need to uprate the brakes all round and do other stuff - so pretty expensive operation!
The easy option would be to have a 4.2
mine came with webbers, did 11mpg and washed the out bores, was great over 3k but lost the low down driveability was awful, when you put your foot down i got a pop out of each exhaust as the unburnt fuel ignited before it would take off. Went over to EFI using triple twin throttle bodies and would never go back, so much more low down, more then a standard 3.8, more top end, great noise and 20-25mpg even looks like the webbers, drop me an email if you want more details
pk
piquet said:
coco h said:
a8hex said:
kurtiejjj said:
Is that moss gearbox really that awful in the 3.8? Was it not a unit better suited for racing than the road?
Depends what you want out of the Moss box. If you want easy then no, it's a nearly 60year old design. There is no synchro on 1st or reverse. The synchro on 2nd is weak. 3rd and 4th should be fine. The XK engine is very torquey, makes modern engines seem dull at low revs. So 1st really is just for starting from a standstill. Don't forget that Jaguar used to benchmark the cars by timing them 0-100MPG in top gear.
If you can double de-clutch you can slot it into 1st on the move, otherwise forget it... just remember not to try or it makes embarrassing noises when you try to slot it into 1st whilst approaching roundabouts etc... but you really don't need to because of the torque curve.
If you are buying a classic car because you want the challenge and reward then the Moss box is great. Get it right and it feels great.
I've been driving my XK150 for a little over a year and certainly would not claim to have mastered the gear box. I still make the odd mistake, I've still got things to learn. Would I change it? NO! It's very satisfying to drive. I love the noise from the straight cut first gear. I love the totally mechanical feel of the gears engaging and disengaging. I love the feeling that it's me doing this. I don't object when I get it wrong, because I know it's ME that has done it. I also don't mind that sometimes it's a pain to get it into 1st or reverse, if the gears have stopped in the wrong place. With 1st you can usually select 2nd and then move straight forward into 1st OK, if that doesn't work just lift of the clutch of a moment in neutral and try again. Those I look upon as personality traits you just have to live with. I don't except the car to be every day transport.
The box is supposed to be incredibly strong. I guess like the rest of the car it depends on whether you get a good one.
The later E-Types (4.2 onwards I think) got a new all synchro box. A good one of these also feels nice and it certainly easier to drive.
Good luck finding a car, what ever way you decide to go.
I have a series I 3.8 and it is a true drivers car. The above analysis of the moss box is correct - it is not easy - neither is the handling for that matter or the brakes but it gives real vintage handling and is great fun.
It does go wrong and there do seem to be some niggles. Personally I want triple webbers on mine but that is going to mean we need to uprate the brakes all round and do other stuff - so pretty expensive operation!
The easy option would be to have a 4.2
mine came with webbers, did 11mpg and washed the out bores, was great over 3k but lost the low down driveability was awful, when you put your foot down i got a pop out of each exhaust as the unburnt fuel ignited before it would take off. Went over to EFI using triple twin throttle bodies and would never go back, so much more low down, more then a standard 3.8, more top end, great noise and 20-25mpg even looks like the webbers, drop me an email if you want more details
pk
That's really useful to know - will email you thank you.
I live around the corner from John Butterworth, who had one of the finest Series 111 V12's convertibles in existance, I remember seeing the car in John's garage many years ago, in the corner covered with a dust sheet looking rather forlorn...
Then John set to work restoring it.........
Apparently just been sold by Eagle for around £120,000....cost new was around £6000.......
Then John set to work restoring it....
..... Apparently just been sold by Eagle for around £120,000....cost new was around £6000.......
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