2.0 TDI very low power after cleaning injectors (Desperate)
Discussion
Hello,
I'm in awful big trouble.
The car is a Golf MKV 2.0 TDI PD (BKD 16V) 140HP, recently bought, 80.000 km
Went right in for DSG revision and belt. While at it I had the glow plugs changed (3 were bad).
I went on and took a good road trip to the mountains and this problem occurred.
While hot (long after the coolant got to 90 deg) between 1500-1800 RPM if I stepped on the pedal (not too hard because the DSG would then change the gear) there was a very nasty rattle/shake throughout the car till about 2000 RPM. If I left the gas alone the rattle would seize immediately.
Went to the service to get it checked.
As the double mass flywheel was almost new, the mechanic got the impression that the rattle is compression escaping on one of the injectors.
He got the injectors out and cleaned them of deposits (rather barbaric if I'm asked, with steel brush but he seemed very confident so I let him do it).
He then proceeded and changed the engine oil, the diesel filter and air filter.
He put the injectors and did some fancy fine tuning on each while manually advancing the engine.
He poured some injector cleaning solution into the tank.
Now for the interesting part...
Started the engine (very hard start, took about a minute, normal I suppose after replacing injectors)
The engine sounded great, as before if I may say, and we left the car to heat up a little (it's very cold here).
Took the car for a short ride.
Surprise! NO POWER. The car barely moves. The engine while on Park revs good and sounds perfect but while on Drive it crawls... I'd give it at most 50 HP. The engine, I repeat, on all circumstances, sounds perfect, even while moving/crawling. The millage on the display went down very much (before it was about 6-7 liters per 100km and now 20-25 liters per 100km).
On VCDS the injector compensation (group 13 I think) looks good while at IDLE between -0.35 and +0.50 (can't remember the exact values) but while moving the 4th injector goes up to 2.15 and the 1st one to -1.2 or something like that.
The turbine works perfectly fine. While on road testing, revving hard at the absolute maximum the car can give ( about 135-140 km/h unfortunately) I've seen the boost around 2200-2400 mBar on VCDS.
Now, before the injectors cleaning operation, the car had a lot of torque even @ very very low RPM, the DSG changed gears at 2000 RPM if i didn't push it very hard and the car piked up speed like it was a kid's play. I even timed the car 0-100 while driving on S and it took a bit over 8 seconds to get it done, and that with a lot of ESP flashing.
That was before.. Now I don't think 45 seconds are enough for the car to get to 100..
The service guy is absolutely clueless.
Please help with ideas, anything that springs through your mind, I'm desperate because I'll be unable to get around without my car (I had my tibia fractured and operated and it's impossible for me to get to the subway station).
I'm in awful big trouble.
The car is a Golf MKV 2.0 TDI PD (BKD 16V) 140HP, recently bought, 80.000 km
Went right in for DSG revision and belt. While at it I had the glow plugs changed (3 were bad).
I went on and took a good road trip to the mountains and this problem occurred.
While hot (long after the coolant got to 90 deg) between 1500-1800 RPM if I stepped on the pedal (not too hard because the DSG would then change the gear) there was a very nasty rattle/shake throughout the car till about 2000 RPM. If I left the gas alone the rattle would seize immediately.
Went to the service to get it checked.
As the double mass flywheel was almost new, the mechanic got the impression that the rattle is compression escaping on one of the injectors.
He got the injectors out and cleaned them of deposits (rather barbaric if I'm asked, with steel brush but he seemed very confident so I let him do it).
He then proceeded and changed the engine oil, the diesel filter and air filter.
He put the injectors and did some fancy fine tuning on each while manually advancing the engine.
He poured some injector cleaning solution into the tank.
Now for the interesting part...
Started the engine (very hard start, took about a minute, normal I suppose after replacing injectors)
The engine sounded great, as before if I may say, and we left the car to heat up a little (it's very cold here).
Took the car for a short ride.
Surprise! NO POWER. The car barely moves. The engine while on Park revs good and sounds perfect but while on Drive it crawls... I'd give it at most 50 HP. The engine, I repeat, on all circumstances, sounds perfect, even while moving/crawling. The millage on the display went down very much (before it was about 6-7 liters per 100km and now 20-25 liters per 100km).
On VCDS the injector compensation (group 13 I think) looks good while at IDLE between -0.35 and +0.50 (can't remember the exact values) but while moving the 4th injector goes up to 2.15 and the 1st one to -1.2 or something like that.
The turbine works perfectly fine. While on road testing, revving hard at the absolute maximum the car can give ( about 135-140 km/h unfortunately) I've seen the boost around 2200-2400 mBar on VCDS.
Now, before the injectors cleaning operation, the car had a lot of torque even @ very very low RPM, the DSG changed gears at 2000 RPM if i didn't push it very hard and the car piked up speed like it was a kid's play. I even timed the car 0-100 while driving on S and it took a bit over 8 seconds to get it done, and that with a lot of ESP flashing.
That was before.. Now I don't think 45 seconds are enough for the car to get to 100..
The service guy is absolutely clueless.
Please help with ideas, anything that springs through your mind, I'm desperate because I'll be unable to get around without my car (I had my tibia fractured and operated and it's impossible for me to get to the subway station).
Edited by dlbogdan on Saturday 29th December 18:34
Edited by dlbogdan on Saturday 29th December 18:40
Edited by dlbogdan on Saturday 29th December 18:45
It sounds like it's gone into limp mode. It might just simply need a reset from someone who has a VAG COM (I think) computer.
It's possibly that removing the injectors and refitting them has triggered it, it might be that the mechanic hasn't reconnected the injectors properly and the ECU has put the car into limp mode to prevent damage.
I think you need to get it to someone with proper diagnostic facilities.
It's possibly that removing the injectors and refitting them has triggered it, it might be that the mechanic hasn't reconnected the injectors properly and the ECU has put the car into limp mode to prevent damage.
I think you need to get it to someone with proper diagnostic facilities.
Thank you for your reply.
The service has authentic Ross-Tech VAG-COM with VCDS but not VAS. The mechanic did a diagnostic but the engine came with no errors
I also own a HexCan 8051, vagcom clone and after a long (and very VERY VERY slow) ride today VCDS reported no errors.
Also, the engine revs all the way to 5000 RPM on Neutral and 4000 RPM on Park, and also while driving albeit very slowly.
On a side note, the car is going to get to Porsche service but they open on 10th of January
And it would be really nice if the mechanic that broke the engine would fix it... It's on his wallet now (or it really should be)
The service has authentic Ross-Tech VAG-COM with VCDS but not VAS. The mechanic did a diagnostic but the engine came with no errors
I also own a HexCan 8051, vagcom clone and after a long (and very VERY VERY slow) ride today VCDS reported no errors.
Also, the engine revs all the way to 5000 RPM on Neutral and 4000 RPM on Park, and also while driving albeit very slowly.
On a side note, the car is going to get to Porsche service but they open on 10th of January
And it would be really nice if the mechanic that broke the engine would fix it... It's on his wallet now (or it really should be) Edited by dlbogdan on Saturday 29th December 19:41
Edited by dlbogdan on Saturday 29th December 20:09
I was terribly afraid of this answer.
He said he has given this kind of "cleaning" to all sorts of injectors in the past with no problems.... Silly me, I believed him.
There is this absolutely perfect sounding of the engine that didn't fit in my mind with broken injectors and that's why I've opened the thread.
Anything that I can do to confirm the injectors are gone?
He said he has given this kind of "cleaning" to all sorts of injectors in the past with no problems.... Silly me, I believed him.
There is this absolutely perfect sounding of the engine that didn't fit in my mind with broken injectors and that's why I've opened the thread.
Anything that I can do to confirm the injectors are gone?
If all values seem ok in Vag Com, it is most likely that the engine is not getting enough diesel through the injectors. Attacking PD injectors with a wire brush seems a bit excessive. What happened to the injector seals while he was brushing? I suppose it is possible to lose a lot of fuel that is supposed to flow through the injectors into the engine oil if the seals are damaged.
Reading this on another thread: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Tame Technician said:
Injector seals (loss of fuel pressure, hi rpm misfire)
Tandem pumps (engine oil gets into fuel + hi rpm misfire)
Injectors (rough running)
Porous heads (coolant loss with no outward leak)
EGR Coolers (coolant loss with no outward leak)
EGR valves (rough running + massive smoke intermittently)
Oil pump drive chain (sudden loss of oil pressure, destroys turbo + engine damage posible)
Turbos (vains stick causing over boost, or bearing failure from above oil pressure loss)
Oh and the dual mas flywheels can exploded and the clutches tend to judder, A parts from that, its all good.
Dipstick are black, dead handy when reading oil level in a diesel (which even straight after a change is always black)
Is it possible that my only problem would be the seals? I know this may very well be wishful thinking but, is it possible to just have massive loss of fuel pressure without the misfiring ?Tandem pumps (engine oil gets into fuel + hi rpm misfire)
Injectors (rough running)
Porous heads (coolant loss with no outward leak)
EGR Coolers (coolant loss with no outward leak)
EGR valves (rough running + massive smoke intermittently)
Oil pump drive chain (sudden loss of oil pressure, destroys turbo + engine damage posible)
Turbos (vains stick causing over boost, or bearing failure from above oil pressure loss)
Oh and the dual mas flywheels can exploded and the clutches tend to judder, A parts from that, its all good.
Dipstick are black, dead handy when reading oil level in a diesel (which even straight after a change is always black)
Well, if the car's power was good before the injectors were taken out, the boost pressure and air mass values are correct, I think it is a realistic possibility. Of course assuming the injectors were set up correctly when they were re-fitted.
However, you can't rule out something else has been disturbed or broken while the car was having its injector work done....
However, you can't rule out something else has been disturbed or broken while the car was having its injector work done....
Attached, in the rar file, you may find an excel file with only the part where I was at WOT between 2000 and 4000 RPM (there are two sheets, one for 3rd and one for 4th gear) and the original CSV file that contains the log for the whole trip to the highway and back.
I've logged 1,8 and 11 groups as instructed in turbo mode.
Also,
I've got this errors on DSG when I've started the car:
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 02E-300-0xx.lbl
Part No SW: 02E 300 042 F HW: 02E 927 770 AE
Component: GSG DSG 070 0917
Revision: 00007000 Serial number: 00000506070466
Coding: 0000020
Shop #: WSC 01287 785 00200
2 Faults Found
18149 - Clutch Pressure Adaptation: Limit Reached
P1741 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 0
Reset counter: 2
Mileage: 80623 km
Time Indication: 0
18149 - Clutch Pressure Adaptation: Limit Reached
P1741 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100001
Fault Priority: 0
Reset counter: 2
Mileage: 80653 km
Time Indication: 0
I think this is normal because the DSG struggles to adapt the clutch for the very low power. The engine almost dies when i simply depress the brake when in Drive mode, whereas before it wouldn't even change the sound.
The rar file-> https://www.box.com/s/ws7z6q1sqerwv5hm4zgf
I've logged 1,8 and 11 groups as instructed in turbo mode.
Also,
I've got this errors on DSG when I've started the car:
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 02E-300-0xx.lbl
Part No SW: 02E 300 042 F HW: 02E 927 770 AE
Component: GSG DSG 070 0917
Revision: 00007000 Serial number: 00000506070466
Coding: 0000020
Shop #: WSC 01287 785 00200
2 Faults Found
18149 - Clutch Pressure Adaptation: Limit Reached
P1741 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 0
Reset counter: 2
Mileage: 80623 km
Time Indication: 0
18149 - Clutch Pressure Adaptation: Limit Reached
P1741 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100001
Fault Priority: 0
Reset counter: 2
Mileage: 80653 km
Time Indication: 0
I think this is normal because the DSG struggles to adapt the clutch for the very low power. The engine almost dies when i simply depress the brake when in Drive mode, whereas before it wouldn't even change the sound.
The rar file-> https://www.box.com/s/ws7z6q1sqerwv5hm4zgf
Edited by dlbogdan on Tuesday 1st January 03:39
Values look ok to me. Injection quantity should be enough, boost seems correct etc., but the file does not include the primary load sensor, the air mass sensor. Just purely looking at the values without listening and 'feeling' the car, it seems that there is not enough diesel arriving in the cylinders for combustion. If the car is not miss firing, it could be quite a few things. Injector seals on all 4 cylinders, tandem pump etc. Is the oil level getting higher after a fair distance?
Mind you, it could even be a blocked cat/exhaust.... I don't think the BKD engine has an exhaust pressure sensor, so it might be worth just disconnecting the down pipe to make sure the cat/exhaust is not the culprit. Or if you have access to some tools, drilling a hole in the down pipe, fit a rivnut and check the exhaust pressure with a suitable pressure gauge.
By the way, you have checked the basics haven't you? Like EGR, anti shudder valve etc.
Mind you, it could even be a blocked cat/exhaust.... I don't think the BKD engine has an exhaust pressure sensor, so it might be worth just disconnecting the down pipe to make sure the cat/exhaust is not the culprit. Or if you have access to some tools, drilling a hole in the down pipe, fit a rivnut and check the exhaust pressure with a suitable pressure gauge.
By the way, you have checked the basics haven't you? Like EGR, anti shudder valve etc.
Edited by Cloggie on Monday 31st December 13:29
Cloggie said:
Values look ok to me. Injection quantity should be enough, boost seems correct etc., but the file does not include the primary load sensor, the air mass sensor. Just purely looking at the values without listening and 'feeling' the car, it seems that there is not enough diesel arriving in the cylinders for combustion. If the car is not miss firing, it could be quite a few things. Injector seals on all 4 cylinders, tandem pump etc. Is the oil level getting higher after a fair distance?
Mind you, it could even be a blocked cat/exhaust.... I don't think the BKD engine has an exhaust pressure sensor, so it might be worth just disconnecting the down pipe to make sure the cat/exhaust is not the culprit. Or if you have access to some tools, drilling a hole in the down pipe, fit a rivnut and check the exhaust pressure with a suitable pressure gauge.
By the way, you have checked the basics haven't you? Like EGR, anti shudder valve etc.
Thanks Cloggie!Mind you, it could even be a blocked cat/exhaust.... I don't think the BKD engine has an exhaust pressure sensor, so it might be worth just disconnecting the down pipe to make sure the cat/exhaust is not the culprit. Or if you have access to some tools, drilling a hole in the down pipe, fit a rivnut and check the exhaust pressure with a suitable pressure gauge.
By the way, you have checked the basics haven't you? Like EGR, anti shudder valve etc.
Edited by Cloggie on Monday 31st December 13:29
No I haven't checked the basics because I'm not really sure of what are these basics.
I do understand the diesel engine and its logic but I'm afraid I actually don't have hands on experience with mechanics... at all. But I'm willing to learn.
I do however understand very well the ECU (I'm an electronics engineer, and have studied ECUs a long time).
The car never misfired, just has a rough start in the morning (@below zero these days) but calms down in a few seconds. I didn't actually payed attention till now about the start while it was running good (I own the car since last month) so I can't tell if it's any different. Maybe I'm just paying a lot more attention to details.
The injector seals have not been changed but I've monitored the oil level (and color) and it stays the same, though I've done only about 50 km in total since the problem appeared.
Tell me more,
How can I have a quick check of the "basics" ? How about checking the Tandem pump?
I've seen some live figures containing the EGR duty % and it shows movement, though I've read that those are just commands and not measured values.
Tell me even more about logging.. What else should I log to make this a tool for proper diagnosis.
Edit: I'll do a lot of reading on my own anyway. At least I have some sort of start.
Thank you very much and happy new year!
Edited by dlbogdan on Monday 31st December 17:25
Ah, I think that if you have no experience with regards to checking the various aspects of a modern(ish) diesel engine, it might be worth taking your car to a diagnostic specialist if you want a timely solution. He/she might even let you in on their train of thought and knowledge that might come in handy for the future.
I am a great believer in making a diagnostic pathway based on symptoms and using electronics as one of the tools to follow the path. To do this, a reasonable knowledge of vehicle systems and procedures is needed. Vehicle manufacturers use 'guided diagnostic' programs to help their technicians with this. Good independent diagnostic technicians have often developed the knowledge and skill over many years to be able to do their work effectively.
Solely using electronics to find the symptom will very often result in unnecessary work being carried out as well as unnecessary parts being replaced.
Don't get me wrong, I think it is great that you want to diagnose and fix the car yourself. But you need to ask different questions. If you first think along the lines of: my diesel engine needs enough air and fuel to be able to work correctly; secondly, the engine needs to be able to expel the burnt mixture to be able to work correctly.
Then the question is: what is missing in your engine's combustion, air or fuel, and if it is getting both correctly, can it get rid of the exhaust gasses.
Once you have determined what is missing, you check the items that could stop the missing part from getting to or out of the combustion chamber.
So, forget about my earlier comments regarding injector seals and tandem pumps (even though they might well be the offending item), and follow a proper diagnostic pathway.
Happy new year, by the way...
I am a great believer in making a diagnostic pathway based on symptoms and using electronics as one of the tools to follow the path. To do this, a reasonable knowledge of vehicle systems and procedures is needed. Vehicle manufacturers use 'guided diagnostic' programs to help their technicians with this. Good independent diagnostic technicians have often developed the knowledge and skill over many years to be able to do their work effectively.
Solely using electronics to find the symptom will very often result in unnecessary work being carried out as well as unnecessary parts being replaced.
Don't get me wrong, I think it is great that you want to diagnose and fix the car yourself. But you need to ask different questions. If you first think along the lines of: my diesel engine needs enough air and fuel to be able to work correctly; secondly, the engine needs to be able to expel the burnt mixture to be able to work correctly.
Then the question is: what is missing in your engine's combustion, air or fuel, and if it is getting both correctly, can it get rid of the exhaust gasses.
Once you have determined what is missing, you check the items that could stop the missing part from getting to or out of the combustion chamber.
So, forget about my earlier comments regarding injector seals and tandem pumps (even though they might well be the offending item), and follow a proper diagnostic pathway.
Happy new year, by the way...
Thanks Cloggie,
Well, I did followed the correct pathway, that's how I ended up with no power. Now the VW specialist mechanic is clueless and of course... in holiday as well as everybody else.
I'm trying to make sense and check for minor problems that could be in my reach of fixing.
anyway.
Did some checking and logging today.
The fuel tank pump i can clearly hear for about 1 second when i turn the key. I could not find any leaks (but I can't really rule it out completely, I haven't checked everywhere (due to my poor mechanics knowledge).
I'm feeling quite down after reading the logs (for about a minute, haven't checked in detail yet).
First log contains groups 3,1,4 where I checked the EGR and MAF readings as instructed here:
https://sites.google.com/site/1810martin/vcds-and-...
Second log contains groups 7, 10, 13 where you can see temperatures, pressures and injection deviation. Unfortunately the second log does not contain RPM values. But there are values for acceleration and turbo pressure and I did put some markings where I've started and ended 2000-3000 and sometimes 3000-4000 WOT sessions.
As you may see in the second log, the injection deviations are all over the place. when started the log they were (-0.73 -0.28 0.31 0.73) and you can see that soon enough they go all the way up to (-1.88 -1.44 0.28 2.99).
In the first log the torsion value is again weird in my opinion. Mostly it stays at -0.5 deg but sometimes it goes to -1.5 deg and sometimes to + 1 deg. I don't know if this is suppose to happen.
What do you think ?
The engine started very very rough today (almost cried). I'm very sad indeed.
Here is the archive containing the logs -> https://www.box.com/s/qd58polvjmwtkvvif7ry
P.S. Now the DSG errors can't be cleared. They always show up with the mileage number I last cleared them.
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 02E-300-0xx.lbl
Part No SW: 02E 300 042 F HW: 02E 927 770 AE
Component: GSG DSG 070 0917
Revision: 00007000 Serial number: 00000506070466
Coding: 0000020
Shop #: WSC 01287 785 00200
2 Faults Found
18149 - Clutch Pressure Adaptation: Limit Reached
P1741 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 0
Reset counter: 2
Mileage: 80673 km
Time Indication: 0
18149 - Clutch Pressure Adaptation: Limit Reached
P1741 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100001
Fault Priority: 0
Reset counter: 2
Mileage: 80673 km
Time Indication: 0
Should I follow this for readaptation ? (Maybe after the low power problem has been fixed.. ?)
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/6-Speed_D...
Well, I did followed the correct pathway, that's how I ended up with no power. Now the VW specialist mechanic is clueless and of course... in holiday as well as everybody else.
I'm trying to make sense and check for minor problems that could be in my reach of fixing.
anyway.
Did some checking and logging today.
The fuel tank pump i can clearly hear for about 1 second when i turn the key. I could not find any leaks (but I can't really rule it out completely, I haven't checked everywhere (due to my poor mechanics knowledge).
I'm feeling quite down after reading the logs (for about a minute, haven't checked in detail yet).
First log contains groups 3,1,4 where I checked the EGR and MAF readings as instructed here:
https://sites.google.com/site/1810martin/vcds-and-...
Second log contains groups 7, 10, 13 where you can see temperatures, pressures and injection deviation. Unfortunately the second log does not contain RPM values. But there are values for acceleration and turbo pressure and I did put some markings where I've started and ended 2000-3000 and sometimes 3000-4000 WOT sessions.
As you may see in the second log, the injection deviations are all over the place. when started the log they were (-0.73 -0.28 0.31 0.73) and you can see that soon enough they go all the way up to (-1.88 -1.44 0.28 2.99).
In the first log the torsion value is again weird in my opinion. Mostly it stays at -0.5 deg but sometimes it goes to -1.5 deg and sometimes to + 1 deg. I don't know if this is suppose to happen.
What do you think ?
The engine started very very rough today (almost cried). I'm very sad indeed.
Here is the archive containing the logs -> https://www.box.com/s/qd58polvjmwtkvvif7ry
P.S. Now the DSG errors can't be cleared. They always show up with the mileage number I last cleared them.
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 02E-300-0xx.lbl
Part No SW: 02E 300 042 F HW: 02E 927 770 AE
Component: GSG DSG 070 0917
Revision: 00007000 Serial number: 00000506070466
Coding: 0000020
Shop #: WSC 01287 785 00200
2 Faults Found
18149 - Clutch Pressure Adaptation: Limit Reached
P1741 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 0
Reset counter: 2
Mileage: 80673 km
Time Indication: 0
18149 - Clutch Pressure Adaptation: Limit Reached
P1741 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100001
Fault Priority: 0
Reset counter: 2
Mileage: 80673 km
Time Indication: 0
Should I follow this for readaptation ? (Maybe after the low power problem has been fixed.. ?)
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/6-Speed_D...
Edited by dlbogdan on Tuesday 1st January 14:05
Are all of the vacuum pipes correctly connected.
I've had injectors out before, put all the engine together only to find on road test no turbo boost at all, open the bonnet remove the engine beautification cover and the vacuum pipe that goes to the top of the cam cover is off. Plug it back on, fault cured.
If the injector job had gone wrong you would usually get a misfire. If its running smooth but has no power, is more likely another issue.
I've had injectors out before, put all the engine together only to find on road test no turbo boost at all, open the bonnet remove the engine beautification cover and the vacuum pipe that goes to the top of the cam cover is off. Plug it back on, fault cured.
If the injector job had gone wrong you would usually get a misfire. If its running smooth but has no power, is more likely another issue.
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