Golf R engine blown
Discussion
Beanie said:
Ok thanks for the information so far everyone,
From the information provided, I have a question,
VW can't tell me what gear it was in,
They can tell me,
Time
Speed
Rev's max
What's to say my gear change was the cause,
Lets say I did actually change from let's say 5th to 3rd, and for some reason the engine wound up in an instant hit 8500 and blew?
Could something have caused this? Engine buggered anyway? Crazy ECU?
As they can't tell me what gear I was in, it seems odd?
What I'm getting at is, what's to say I put the car into a gear that it should have been capable of, but it failed
An ECU is not the same as an Aircraft "Black Box"From the information provided, I have a question,
VW can't tell me what gear it was in,
They can tell me,
Time
Speed
Rev's max
What's to say my gear change was the cause,
Lets say I did actually change from let's say 5th to 3rd, and for some reason the engine wound up in an instant hit 8500 and blew?
Could something have caused this? Engine buggered anyway? Crazy ECU?
As they can't tell me what gear I was in, it seems odd?
What I'm getting at is, what's to say I put the car into a gear that it should have been capable of, but it failed
Edited by Beanie on Thursday 5th October 15:40
There is a record on the ECU of an 8500 rev spike, and you have a dead engine which you accept is date stamped within your ownership.
Mate, I know it is a s
tter but really it is time to concentrate on looking at the best way to fix what you have managed to break, forget the wriggles and the desperate reasoning etc as you really are on a road to nothing with the dealer or VW.
Stickyfinger said:
Beanie said:
Ok thanks for the information so far everyone,
From the information provided, I have a question,
VW can't tell me what gear it was in,
They can tell me,
Time
Speed
Rev's max
What's to say my gear change was the cause,
Lets say I did actually change from let's say 5th to 3rd, and for some reason the engine wound up in an instant hit 8500 and blew?
Could something have caused this? Engine buggered anyway? Crazy ECU?
As they can't tell me what gear I was in, it seems odd?
What I'm getting at is, what's to say I put the car into a gear that it should have been capable of, but it failed
An ECU is not the same as an Aircraft "Black Box"From the information provided, I have a question,
VW can't tell me what gear it was in,
They can tell me,
Time
Speed
Rev's max
What's to say my gear change was the cause,
Lets say I did actually change from let's say 5th to 3rd, and for some reason the engine wound up in an instant hit 8500 and blew?
Could something have caused this? Engine buggered anyway? Crazy ECU?
As they can't tell me what gear I was in, it seems odd?
What I'm getting at is, what's to say I put the car into a gear that it should have been capable of, but it failed
Edited by Beanie on Thursday 5th October 15:40
There is a record on the ECU of an 8500 rev spike, and you have a dead engine which you accept is date stamped within your ownership.
Mate, I know it is a s
tter but really it is time to concentrate on looking at the best way to fix what you have managed to break, forget the wriggles and the desperate reasoning etc as you really are on a road to nothing with the dealer or VW.I am familiar with the black box and know it contains everything, which surprises me the ECU is actually very basic and only registers the exceedance, which is why I am asking, it doesn't say what gear I was in, and I can't believe I did go into a gear that would cause it, which is why I am asking could an engine fault have caused it?
Beanie said:
I am familiar with the black box and know it contains everything, which surprises me the ECU is actually very basic and only registers the exceedance, which is why I am asking, it doesn't say what gear I was in
Easy to calculate from road speed and revs, with a little allowance for the clutch maybe not being totally engaged before it went pop.Beanie said:
and I can't believe I did go into a gear that would cause it
Ever heard of Occam's Razor?Beanie said:
which is why I am asking could an engine fault have caused it?
You were downchanging for a reduction in speed limit when it happened, weren't you?Beanie said:
Fair comment,
I am familiar with the black box and know it contains everything, which surprises me the ECU is actually very basic and only registers the exceedance, which is why I am asking, it doesn't say what gear I was in, and I can't believe I did go into a gear that would cause it, which is why I am asking could an engine fault have caused it?
If it was auto they'd possibly know. I am familiar with the black box and know it contains everything, which surprises me the ECU is actually very basic and only registers the exceedance, which is why I am asking, it doesn't say what gear I was in, and I can't believe I did go into a gear that would cause it, which is why I am asking could an engine fault have caused it?
Who knows maybe no one suggested that coding of gear at time of engine failure is needed to be recorded /cost to achieve that too high and needed so few times it's a pointless addition.
End of day.
1. Engine ruined
2. Fault code is over rev
3. Within your ownership
4. One poster stated useless info for someone who had only budgeted £7-8k for 2years ownership, well obviously but why would VW or lease co have to pay for a ruined engine due to overrev.
5. You say there is a £2k+vat cost to carry out an investigation to determine what's wrong with it - seems high.
6. You must reaslise you are in for £5-15k territory of cost
7. Even if you didn't put it in gear and sat foot on the throttle to the floor the engine would simply sit at the limiter (for tank after tank of fuel - provided you have airflow).
You might want a mechanic to take a spark plug out and put an endoscope into each to look round and see the damage in each
Block could be fine in which case repair job and avoid changing engine numbers with the added pain that causes.
Yep I was down changing but if the engine wasn't having a good day anyway, dropping into mid range could have been the straw the broke the camels back
Yes I'm aware we are all human and all able to make mistakes
However when that 'mistake' is costing 5 figures, I want to know that it WAS me, nothe some VW bull $h!t, cos let's face it, it's not like they have ever lied to the consumer is it
Yes I'm aware we are all human and all able to make mistakes
However when that 'mistake' is costing 5 figures, I want to know that it WAS me, nothe some VW bull $h!t, cos let's face it, it's not like they have ever lied to the consumer is it
Welshbeef said:
Beanie said:
Fair comment,
I am familiar with the black box and know it contains everything, which surprises me the ECU is actually very basic and only registers the exceedance, which is why I am asking, it doesn't say what gear I was in, and I can't believe I did go into a gear that would cause it, which is why I am asking could an engine fault have caused it?
If it was auto they'd possibly know. I am familiar with the black box and know it contains everything, which surprises me the ECU is actually very basic and only registers the exceedance, which is why I am asking, it doesn't say what gear I was in, and I can't believe I did go into a gear that would cause it, which is why I am asking could an engine fault have caused it?
Who knows maybe no one suggested that coding of gear at time of engine failure is needed to be recorded /cost to achieve that too high and needed so few times it's a pointless addition.
End of day.
1. Engine ruined
2. Fault code is over rev
3. Within your ownership
4. One poster stated useless info for someone who had only budgeted £7-8k for 2years ownership, well obviously but why would VW or lease co have to pay for a ruined engine due to overrev.
5. You say there is a £2k+vat cost to carry out an investigation to determine what's wrong with it - seems high.
6. You must reaslise you are in for £5-15k territory of cost
7. Even if you didn't put it in gear and sat foot on the throttle to the floor the engine would simply sit at the limiter (for tank after tank of fuel - provided you have airflow).
You might want a mechanic to take a spark plug out and put an endoscope into each to look round and see the damage in each
Block could be fine in which case repair job and avoid changing engine numbers with the added pain that causes.
I'm in it for 10 - 15 based on quote
Beanie said:
Yep I was down changing but if the engine wasn't having a good day anyway, dropping into mid range could have been the straw the broke the camels back
Yes I'm aware we are all human and all able to make mistakes
However when that 'mistake' is costing 5 figures, I want to know that it WAS me, nothe some VW bull $h!t, cos let's face it, it's not like they have ever lied to the consumer is it
Downchanging 5th to 4th for a 50mph is odd anyway 6th would be fine. Unless a steep hill and not ample power to drive up it. Yes I'm aware we are all human and all able to make mistakes
However when that 'mistake' is costing 5 figures, I want to know that it WAS me, nothe some VW bull $h!t, cos let's face it, it's not like they have ever lied to the consumer is it
Are there any other fault codes logged BEFORE the engine over rev Warranty void log?
What noise did you really hear
How did it all feel through the steering dash display vibrations
Any trail of smoke
Any steam from the bonnet
Did you come to a stop in the fast lane of he 50mph? Or did you coast in neutral to the hard shoulder
Have you asked them is there a hole in the block/is the block fine just the head, valves all f
ked or is the Turbo shot too with bits having gone into it fking the vanes?Why not pay a few hundred to a VW specialist to give it the once over and who is working in your interests.
£10k++ is a right kick in the balls.
TooMany2cvs said:
Welshbeef said:
5. You say there is a £2k+vat cost to carry out an investigation to determine what's wrong with it - seems high.
Labour (at main dealer hourly rates, obv) to remove engine, dismantle engine, stare at bits of engine.Welshbeef said:
Beanie said:
Yep I was down changing but if the engine wasn't having a good day anyway, dropping into mid range could have been the straw the broke the camels back
Yes I'm aware we are all human and all able to make mistakes
However when that 'mistake' is costing 5 figures, I want to know that it WAS me, nothe some VW bull $h!t, cos let's face it, it's not like they have ever lied to the consumer is it
Downchanging 5th to 4th for a 50mph is odd anyway 6th would be fine. Unless a steep hill and not ample power to drive up it. Yes I'm aware we are all human and all able to make mistakes
However when that 'mistake' is costing 5 figures, I want to know that it WAS me, nothe some VW bull $h!t, cos let's face it, it's not like they have ever lied to the consumer is it
Are there any other fault codes logged BEFORE the engine over rev Warranty void log?
What noise did you really hear
How did it all feel through the steering dash display vibrations
Any trail of smoke
Any steam from the bonnet
Did you come to a stop in the fast lane of he 50mph? Or did you coast in neutral to the hard shoulder
Have you asked them is there a hole in the block/is the block fine just the head, valves all f
ked or is the Turbo shot too with bits having gone into it fking the vanes?Why not pay a few hundred to a VW specialist to give it the once over and who is working in your interests.
£10k++ is a right kick in the balls.
No change in dynamics,
No smoke
No oil
No bits
Nothing at all
Vw have said no compression in all cylinders, at this point they are unsure about further damage, turbo, clutch etc
Yep downchange ls to slow and going into incline
I managed just to coast to a lay by
It was literally like at 70 I had dipped the clutch, no torque no nothing it just free wheeled and I don't even think I had to move it to neutral
It was done in fraction of seconds
Nothing on dash other than restart car manually
Op
To answer those open questions you still seem to have
They can't tell you the gear you selected as it's not logged, there is no sensor in the gearbox looking at which gear is engaged, the in dash display is calculated from engine load/ speed and road speed under normal conditions. Once you exceeded normal conditions all they can say is that you exceeded max revs , so given the road speed you either selected 1st or 2nd.
There is no software that will ever save you here, the simple mechanical linkage of road speed, to road wheels, gearbox to engine will over speed the engine.
Given the scenario I would suggest you quickly exceeded the drive train capabilities ( i.e. The ability of the valve springs to close the valves before the piston came up to meet them) and the ensuring impact bent all valves and gave you zero compression n an instant, hence the engine died.
Ability to fix depends on what else was damaged during those events, Vw will not strip and repair such a failure rather just wholesale replacement. Given it's a lease car with 1 year remaining once you hand it back, I suspect your contract will enforce a vw approved solution that will return the vehicle to a position of being warrantable.
To answer those open questions you still seem to have
They can't tell you the gear you selected as it's not logged, there is no sensor in the gearbox looking at which gear is engaged, the in dash display is calculated from engine load/ speed and road speed under normal conditions. Once you exceeded normal conditions all they can say is that you exceeded max revs , so given the road speed you either selected 1st or 2nd.
There is no software that will ever save you here, the simple mechanical linkage of road speed, to road wheels, gearbox to engine will over speed the engine.
Given the scenario I would suggest you quickly exceeded the drive train capabilities ( i.e. The ability of the valve springs to close the valves before the piston came up to meet them) and the ensuring impact bent all valves and gave you zero compression n an instant, hence the engine died.
Ability to fix depends on what else was damaged during those events, Vw will not strip and repair such a failure rather just wholesale replacement. Given it's a lease car with 1 year remaining once you hand it back, I suspect your contract will enforce a vw approved solution that will return the vehicle to a position of being warrantable.
Did the engine stop on the rev counter?
Coasting with stopped engine must have been hard with steering going heavy(unassisted any more) ditto breaks not assisted /guess you just used momentum to get to safety.
Was there any oil coming out onto the tarmac hard shoulder as you waited for recovery? Was there any on the low loader? Did you check oil levels after the incident?
Sounds like VW fancy a nice engine change and unless the block is holed then a repair will be epically cheaper/man hours might be high though.
Coasting with stopped engine must have been hard with steering going heavy(unassisted any more) ditto breaks not assisted /guess you just used momentum to get to safety.
Was there any oil coming out onto the tarmac hard shoulder as you waited for recovery? Was there any on the low loader? Did you check oil levels after the incident?
Sounds like VW fancy a nice engine change and unless the block is holed then a repair will be epically cheaper/man hours might be high though.
SMB said:
Op
To answer those open questions you still seem to have
They can't tell you the gear you selected as it's not logged, there is no sensor in the gearbox looking at which gear is engaged, the in dash display is calculated from engine load/ speed and road speed under normal conditions. Once you exceeded normal conditions all they can say is that you exceeded max revs , so given the road speed you either selected 1st or 2nd.
There is no software that will ever save you here, the simple mechanical linkage of road speed, to road wheels, gearbox to engine will over speed the engine.
Given the scenario I would suggest you quickly exceeded the drive train capabilities ( i.e. The ability of the valve springs to close the valves before the piston came up to meet them) and the ensuring impact bent all valves and gave you zero compression n an instant, hence the engine died.
Ability to fix depends on what else was damaged during those events, Vw will not strip and repair such a failure rather just wholesale replacement. Given it's a lease car with 1 year remaining once you hand it back, I suspect your contract will enforce a vw approved solution that will return the vehicle to a position of being warrantable.
Thanks, very helpful, To answer those open questions you still seem to have
They can't tell you the gear you selected as it's not logged, there is no sensor in the gearbox looking at which gear is engaged, the in dash display is calculated from engine load/ speed and road speed under normal conditions. Once you exceeded normal conditions all they can say is that you exceeded max revs , so given the road speed you either selected 1st or 2nd.
There is no software that will ever save you here, the simple mechanical linkage of road speed, to road wheels, gearbox to engine will over speed the engine.
Given the scenario I would suggest you quickly exceeded the drive train capabilities ( i.e. The ability of the valve springs to close the valves before the piston came up to meet them) and the ensuring impact bent all valves and gave you zero compression n an instant, hence the engine died.
Ability to fix depends on what else was damaged during those events, Vw will not strip and repair such a failure rather just wholesale replacement. Given it's a lease car with 1 year remaining once you hand it back, I suspect your contract will enforce a vw approved solution that will return the vehicle to a position of being warrantable.
At the moment vw will be doing the engine change, so hopefully it satisfies the lease company, can't do any better than that
Sorry, but is not possible that, e.g., part of the engine could fail in such a way as to cause an overspeed momentarily as part of the engine remains functional? rapidly followed by the rest of the engine failing? How can the presence of a recorded 'overspeed' be confidently and unequivocally assigned to incorrect gear selection?
Looking at this objectively:
- VW have evidence that the engine recorded that it was over revved
- they claim its due to incorrect gear selection
- the driver claims it is not
- VW have no evidence of gear selection to corroborate their claim
On that basis, how can VW be confident that the fault is attributable to user error?
Looking at this objectively:
- VW have evidence that the engine recorded that it was over revved
- they claim its due to incorrect gear selection
- the driver claims it is not
- VW have no evidence of gear selection to corroborate their claim
On that basis, how can VW be confident that the fault is attributable to user error?
Welshbeef said:
Did the engine stop on the rev counter?
Coasting with stopped engine must have been hard with steering going heavy(unassisted any more) ditto breaks not assisted /guess you just used momentum to get to safety.
Was there any oil coming out onto the tarmac hard shoulder as you waited for recovery? Was there any on the low loader? Did you check oil levels after the incident?
Sounds like VW fancy a nice engine change and unless the block is holed then a repair will be epically cheaper/man hours might be high though.
Interesting point you make, I actually don't remember heavy steering or unusual braking. Doesn't mean it wasn't as you say, I think at the time I was trying to coast to a place a safety whilst negotiating traffic and thinking WTF, it was lower on my priority lists. Coasting with stopped engine must have been hard with steering going heavy(unassisted any more) ditto breaks not assisted /guess you just used momentum to get to safety.
Was there any oil coming out onto the tarmac hard shoulder as you waited for recovery? Was there any on the low loader? Did you check oil levels after the incident?
Sounds like VW fancy a nice engine change and unless the block is holed then a repair will be epically cheaper/man hours might be high though.
No as I keep saying, no oil anywhere no smoke, nothing at all. Was sat an hour and half before recovery, not a drip of oil, and I certainly checked.
Admittedly didn't check levels at dealer
Given the severity of the damage is would have expected fireworks
glasgow mega snake said:
Sorry, but is not possible that, e.g., part of the engine could fail in such a way as to cause an overspeed momentarily as part of the engine remains functional? rapidly followed by the rest of the engine failing? How can the presence of a recorded 'overspeed' be confidently and unequivocally assigned to incorrect gear selection?
Looking at this objectively:
- VW have evidence that the engine recorded that it was over revved
- they claim its due to incorrect gear selection
- the driver claims it is not
- VW have no evidence of gear selection to corroborate their claim
On that basis, how can VW be confident that the fault is attributable to user error?
Other than the incorrect gear selection, To overspeed an engine it needs spark and fuel, the rev limiter stops the engine exceeding max revs by design cutting both fuel and ignition.Looking at this objectively:
- VW have evidence that the engine recorded that it was over revved
- they claim its due to incorrect gear selection
- the driver claims it is not
- VW have no evidence of gear selection to corroborate their claim
On that basis, how can VW be confident that the fault is attributable to user error?
Re the gear selection , see previous reply.
Re brakes and steering,
Steering is electrical so as ignition was on the battery would provide power to have steering assistance. Brake servo retain a vacuum and would help with initial and perhaps one extra press of the pedal before assistance is lost. Try it on your car, turn off the engine and try the brakes , some assistance remains for a while.
Edited by SMB on Thursday 5th October 18:30
glasgow mega snake said:
Sorry, but is not possible that, e.g., part of the engine could fail in such a way as to cause an overspeed momentarily as part of the engine remains functional? rapidly followed by the rest of the engine failing? How can the presence of a recorded 'overspeed' be confidently and unequivocally assigned to incorrect gear selection?
Looking at this objectively:
- VW have evidence that the engine recorded that it was over revved
- they claim its due to incorrect gear selection
- the driver claims it is not
- VW have no evidence of gear selection to corroborate their claim
On that basis, how can VW be confident that the fault is attributable to user error?
Exactly what I'm trying to get at, this is what I want answered Looking at this objectively:
- VW have evidence that the engine recorded that it was over revved
- they claim its due to incorrect gear selection
- the driver claims it is not
- VW have no evidence of gear selection to corroborate their claim
On that basis, how can VW be confident that the fault is attributable to user error?
SMB said:
glasgow mega snake said:
Sorry, but is not possible that, e.g., part of the engine could fail in such a way as to cause an overspeed momentarily as part of the engine remains functional? rapidly followed by the rest of the engine failing? How can the presence of a recorded 'overspeed' be confidently and unequivocally assigned to incorrect gear selection?
Looking at this objectively:
- VW have evidence that the engine recorded that it was over revved
- they claim its due to incorrect gear selection
- the driver claims it is not
- VW have no evidence of gear selection to corroborate their claim
On that basis, how can VW be confident that the fault is attributable to user error?
Other than the incorrect gear selection, To overspeed an engine it needs spark and fuel, the rev limiter stops the engine exceeding max revs by design cutting both fuel and ignition.Looking at this objectively:
- VW have evidence that the engine recorded that it was over revved
- they claim its due to incorrect gear selection
- the driver claims it is not
- VW have no evidence of gear selection to corroborate their claim
On that basis, how can VW be confident that the fault is attributable to user error?
Re the gear selection , see previous reply.
glasgow mega snake said:
how can you rule out a failure in something else, e.g. in the mechanism that limits the engine speed?
Other than the fact fact there is no evidence of rev limiter failure, it Mostly because of the op s statement of fact of what happened. The op started to engage the clutch after changing gear, even with massive over fueling engine speed would only rise slowly as it worked to pull th car along. I'm sorry but vw are right , everything else is clutching at straws.glasgow mega snake said:
how can you rule out a failure in something else, e.g. in the mechanism that limits the engine speed?
Because he was changing down gear and not blipping the throttle to do so. He didn't notice any mega revs infact nothing out of the ordinary apart from no power.
Maybe the over rev was at a different time on the drive and it simply gave up then.
OP is the time of the over rev inline with when the loss of power 70mph-50mph and 4th selected?
Clearly VW didn't know when it happened so if the time and date they provide matches that point in time then something must have happened at that point.
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