Is the 2ltr TDI engine the worst VAG ever produced?
Discussion
Martin4356111 said:
I'm looking at buying an 09 plate Mitsubishi Lancer 2.0 diesel and I'm under the impression that this is the engine fitted to these. The car for sale has only done 58,000 miles.
I was quite looking forward to going and having a look but I'm a little put off now. Help...
Every car has an element of risk. Maybe it's just forums, but I get the impression people these days take everything they read on them at face value, are too afraid to take a chance and can't make decisions on car purchases without a committee / opinion poll.I was quite looking forward to going and having a look but I'm a little put off now. Help...
Gone are the days where you just turn up to Dick's Garage with a wad of cash and take pot luck. Cars back then had far greater risks and a real chance they wouldn't even start on a cold winter morning. Now, people won't buy a car at all based purely on internet conjecture surrounding an easily replaceable part, which when replaced makes the car 100% operational again. I don't get it.
Every car has the potential to leave you stranded, and every car has running costs attached. Fact.
07 plate Passat 2.0 TDi broke down once injectors my own fault as had the recall letter but ignored it then 6 months later just stopped repaired for free, the old work horse is now up to 233000 so no complaints from me then the Bora I had before that with the 1.9 130 bhp engine sold to a friend is up to nearly 400000.
944fan said:
Dr G said:
They're not that bad really, problems seem more common because VAG make (very literally) MILLIONS of the damn things.
The porous heads they're quietly doing FOC, clutches are because people drive high torque cars around town and slip them, oil pump thing is just a stupid design but not as frequent as you'd believe from the forums and DPF problems are more to do with how the car is driven than the car itself.
They do seem to munch turbos but regular oil changes and properly warming/cooling the engine would (I bet) alleviate a lot of this.
They've made far worse: 2.5 TDI V6, all early FSI N/A, 2.4 V6...
Out of interest why do you say the 2.4 V6? I have one, and aside from it pissing oil everywhere (which all the V6s do I believe) I have never had any problems with it. I am not disagreeing with you, genuinely interested in your viewpoint.The porous heads they're quietly doing FOC, clutches are because people drive high torque cars around town and slip them, oil pump thing is just a stupid design but not as frequent as you'd believe from the forums and DPF problems are more to do with how the car is driven than the car itself.
They do seem to munch turbos but regular oil changes and properly warming/cooling the engine would (I bet) alleviate a lot of this.
They've made far worse: 2.5 TDI V6, all early FSI N/A, 2.4 V6...
There are various reasons for this, but high on the agenda is minimal or almost no real development work: almost all of it is simulated on computers and it doesn't work. Combine that with teams of "bright" young, totally inexperienced graduates full of "creative" ideas in the design teams and you have the current situation.
In the good old days we would take new ideas built into cars and thrash the arse off them over the alps and on autobahns until they broke; then we'd modifify them so they didn't break: we did this BEFORE Joe Public got his hands on them. There has never been an era where more "known faults" existed on motor vehicles. It's a bloody disgrace and all of it is down to the manufacturers.
In my almost 40 years experience working on VAG cars I would rate the 2.0 TDi as the worst ever. The worst aspect of this is the oil pump. There are basically 2 versions; one is chain driven, the other gear driven. Regardless of which version it is, the chain or gear doesn't actually drive the pump, it drives the primary balancer shaft, a gear at the end of this then drives the secondary balancer shaft. At the front of this shaft an unbelievably ludicrous piece of s
t in the form of a tiny hex bar that drives the pump. It is a loose fit in both the pump shaft and balancer shaft. Balancer shafts emit harmonious vibrations along their length to balance out the crankshaft vibrations. The last thing you would do is to drive anything from them, especially something as utterly critical as the oil pump. The constant movemment generated on this wee hex drive wears the corners out and it goes round resulting in an instant loss of oil pressure. You have around 3 milliseconds to switch the engine off before it is ruined.For those of you with no engineering background let me just say that any first year engineering student who is worth his salt would instantly dismiss a design like this as being grossly inadequate and clearly incompetent. I would love to meet the undoubtedly arrogant muppet who designed this and ask them to justify it in engineering terms.
The final straw that breaks the camel's back is the fact that VAG are well aware of this fault but do not publically recognise it. On top of this, when you require a new oil pump from them, and bear in mind DR G's comment about the fact that they make millions of them, they will relieve you of... £1005 plus VAT for a new pump!!!!! That price is correct as of last month when we priced up an engine rebuild on a Passat with total seizure due to this design. A grand for an oil pump on a mass produced car!! Utterly disgraceful!
Then there is the fact that to replace the glowplugs or injectors involves a major strip down of cam gear and followers. The injectors fail regularly and are in the region of 500 quid each. But let's not mention the turbo vane seizure either and the cost of replacement, or the DPF failure at unacceptably low mileages and massive cost to replace.
The sad thing about this is the engine is based on the old 1.9 TDi; arguably one of the best diesel engines ever produced worldwide. My daughter drove an 80 TDi as a student. It was finally disposed off showing 230k on the clock and still returning 55 MPG with all the major components still in place. There are still thousands of these engines in cars all over the world running up collosal mileages with no problems. Why would you change a design that is so proven into an utter disaster?
The V6 engines. My daily is a 1999 A6 2.4. It is in beautiful order and is driven very, very hard. It is totally standard apart from Bilstein shockers. It returns 38 MPG on a run. Using a bit of simple arithmetic it can be shown that it is cheaper to run than it's equivalent diesel cousin due to the fact that diesel is significantly more expensive then petrol in this country. If you also take into account the fact that a major breakdown in a diesel is more likely and will empty your bank account there is, for me, no contest. And for the moment we won't mention the current findings about serious health conditions and heavy diesel, carsinogenic particulates.
One of my customers remarked when I was dropping him off at the station that it was quieter than his Bentley. It is undoubtedly the quietest, smoothest car I have ever owned. It has just turned over 130K and has all the original components still fitted and operating perfectly. The only long term problems associated with these engines are oil leaks. They are simple to fix and always emanate from the same source, i.e. the camshaft oil seals behind the timing belt and the cam cover gaskets. Both are a simple fix, particularly when changing the belt itself. I have driven and worked on dozens of models with the V6 engine and, with the exception of the turbocharged and chain driven engines, have never had to carry out any major engine work whatever.
The 2.4 engine is a development of the old 2.6, the major difference being the change to 5 valve cylinder heads. It is in my opinion the best V6 of all when taken into account reliability, performance and above all, fuel economy. It is an absolute turbine of an engine and feels as if it will last for ever. I have many customers with these engines and all are full of praise for the power unit.
You wonder how bad it will get with "known faults" and massively expensive repairs before the average vehicle lifespan is a year or two.
J
They want cars to last only 2-3 years. But don't worry, the fancy electronics will do just the job. Just like a 3 year old ipad is obsolete, the cars will be the same. In exchange we'll get more safety technology, driverless cars, etc. If you have the money, I suppose it is fine... new shiny toy every 2 years.
[quote=jithThe V6 engines. My daily is a 1999 A6 2.4. It is in beautiful order and is driven very, very hard.
38mpg.......
[/quote]
A very informative piece, however, having previously owned a 2.4 V6 A6 Avant 2001 while I fully agree it was a great engine with none of the woes uttered by Dr G, i have issue with 38 mpg !!!!!!!! never in a million years unless you pushed it by hand. Yes, probably cheaper to run than diesel long term and an unsung hero, but never that sort of consumption, driving Miss Daisy would only see 32 & mostly 25-29 mpg in mine up to 81k.
Consumption aside it was far preferable engine wise to my much younger well respected 3.0 tdi replacement. Says it all really.
38mpg.......
[/quote]
A very informative piece, however, having previously owned a 2.4 V6 A6 Avant 2001 while I fully agree it was a great engine with none of the woes uttered by Dr G, i have issue with 38 mpg !!!!!!!! never in a million years unless you pushed it by hand. Yes, probably cheaper to run than diesel long term and an unsung hero, but never that sort of consumption, driving Miss Daisy would only see 32 & mostly 25-29 mpg in mine up to 81k.
Consumption aside it was far preferable engine wise to my much younger well respected 3.0 tdi replacement. Says it all really.
Andy JB said:
jith said:
The V6 engines. My daily is a 1999 A6 2.4. It is in beautiful order and is driven very, very hard.
38mpg.......
A very informative piece, however, having previously owned a 2.4 V6 A6 Avant 2001 while I fully agree it was a great engine with none of the woes uttered by Dr G, i have issue with 38 mpg !!!!!!!! never in a million years unless you pushed it by hand. Yes, probably cheaper to run than diesel long term and an unsung hero, but never that sort of consumption, driving Miss Daisy would only see 32 & mostly 25-29 mpg in mine up to 81k.38mpg.......
Consumption aside it was far preferable engine wise to my much younger well respected 3.0 tdi replacement. Says it all really.
Another interesting fact about these engines that is only found on long term ownership, is that the perfomance and consumption improve quite significantly with high mileage, providing the engine is properly serviced. I have also found that simple upgrades like going to Iridium plugs can make a substantial differnece to the overall performance of the engine.
By the way Andy, I previously owned a 2001 2.8 Avante Quattro 30 valve, and I was surprised at how much heavier it was than the 2.4 FWD saloon. And it devoured fuel when driven hard. Fabulous workhorse, but very thirsty.
J
dtr said:
They want cars to last only 2-3 years. But don't worry, the fancy electronics will do just the job. Just like a 3 year old ipad is obsolete, the cars will be the same. In exchange we'll get more safety technology, driverless cars, etc. If you have the money, I suppose it is fine... new shiny toy every 2 years.
Running 4 "middle-aged" cars (thankfully only one VW) in the family is starting to keep me awake at night! I'm more and more thinking the future is to look for a deal and lease for 2-3 years, then let someone else do the worrying.dtr said:
They want cars to last only 2-3 years. But don't worry, the fancy electronics will do just the job. Just like a 3 year old ipad is obsolete, the cars will be the same. In exchange we'll get more safety technology, driverless cars, etc. If you have the money, I suppose it is fine... new shiny toy every 2 years.
That sounds like hell to me. Yes , I would have said 5 years , and in Japan the equivalent of the MOT puts paid to cars over 5 years old , hence JDM import business for more interesting Jap Cars
I suppose cars such as Dacia with a 3 year warranty look even cheaper when you can scrap it after 3 years if it's just a tool to do a job you want , even better with the Korean offerings with 5 and 7 year warranty and of course Kia interiors are designed by the former Audi interior designer ! As I recall.
I suppose cars such as Dacia with a 3 year warranty look even cheaper when you can scrap it after 3 years if it's just a tool to do a job you want , even better with the Korean offerings with 5 and 7 year warranty and of course Kia interiors are designed by the former Audi interior designer ! As I recall.
Someone senior at Tata (JLR) once told me 10 years is the expected lifetime they build them to last, but he didn't mention mileage.
I'm finding with modern cars particularly VAG/ German that after 5 years they start getting annoying problems and begin to feel worn. Still have life left in them though, all depends how well you look after.
I'm finding with modern cars particularly VAG/ German that after 5 years they start getting annoying problems and begin to feel worn. Still have life left in them though, all depends how well you look after.
I am sure most of the mechanical systems will last 5 years and maybe well in excess of 100k miles, with correct servicing .
But will the electronics ?
Also the complexity and lack of serviceability of some parts will put question marks over car life span , many parts are only available as assemblies ( electric parking brake callipers for instance ) will these items and electronic system failures make cars uneconomic to repair at relatively low ages in the future , bodies will last along with the basic engine but the rest fall apart, lots of nice shells in scrap yards!
But will the electronics ?
Also the complexity and lack of serviceability of some parts will put question marks over car life span , many parts are only available as assemblies ( electric parking brake callipers for instance ) will these items and electronic system failures make cars uneconomic to repair at relatively low ages in the future , bodies will last along with the basic engine but the rest fall apart, lots of nice shells in scrap yards!
2010 Golf 6 2 litre TDI on one of our lifts, CBAB engine, average mileage, broken crank on number 1 journal, a fist time failure for me. In general over the last few years the customer has had nightmares with this car, the local VW dealer got so fed up with it they told him not to come back, which is why he found us. He has already spent £4k with us keeping it going and it rewards him with a broken crank, it's not even the low power cast crank but a forged steel unit.
jith said:
In my almost 40 years experience working on VAG cars I would rate the 2.0 TDi as the worst ever. The worst aspect of this is the oil pump.
Apparently VW latest genius idea on the EA888 4 cyl petrol engine is sintered lobe camshafts which snap. Apart from the general inconvenience that causes, the exhaust camshaft drives the brake servo. The 1.6 FSI petrol is worthy of mention. Not for unreliability but simply for being so incredibly mundane.
Reluctant and coarse much above 3,000 rpm with an absence of any useable torque, the icing on the cake is that it prefers to be run on super unleaded. Give me the 2ltr TDI any day.
Reluctant and coarse much above 3,000 rpm with an absence of any useable torque, the icing on the cake is that it prefers to be run on super unleaded. Give me the 2ltr TDI any day.
An interesting post Jith.
I often wonder why a designer would dream up an assembly that is more complicated, harder to repair, less durable and trickier to access than the previous model and why it would be signed off by his superiors.
What happened to "simplify and add lightness" and "an engineer is someone who can do for a penny what any fool can do for a Pound" ?
I helped with the repair of an oil pump on a 2.0 Tdi and my first thought when seeing the flimsy hex shaft was that these were rubbish on Ford V6 motors 40 Yrs ago so why would anyone think it acceptable to use one today?
At least when the shaft rounded off on your Granada the engine stopped immediately, VW did not even have the wit to copy that feature.
I used to love working on cars but now it is becoming a chore, if you can actually reach the component then it will need a special tool or socket to remove it though it may be better to smash it off as you'll not be able to fix it anyway.
WRT the Audi 2.4 V6, I had one of those in a new 2002 A6 manual, though good looking and beautifully built it was a very disappointing car, dreadfully over-geared, making it feel peaky and gutless, coupled with a thirst for fuel and especially oil I could not wait to trade it in.
I suspect that if I had used it for motorway work I might have liked it better but on our local rural roads it was not happy and I would have been better off with the Tdi version.
I often wonder why a designer would dream up an assembly that is more complicated, harder to repair, less durable and trickier to access than the previous model and why it would be signed off by his superiors.
What happened to "simplify and add lightness" and "an engineer is someone who can do for a penny what any fool can do for a Pound" ?
I helped with the repair of an oil pump on a 2.0 Tdi and my first thought when seeing the flimsy hex shaft was that these were rubbish on Ford V6 motors 40 Yrs ago so why would anyone think it acceptable to use one today?
At least when the shaft rounded off on your Granada the engine stopped immediately, VW did not even have the wit to copy that feature.
I used to love working on cars but now it is becoming a chore, if you can actually reach the component then it will need a special tool or socket to remove it though it may be better to smash it off as you'll not be able to fix it anyway.
WRT the Audi 2.4 V6, I had one of those in a new 2002 A6 manual, though good looking and beautifully built it was a very disappointing car, dreadfully over-geared, making it feel peaky and gutless, coupled with a thirst for fuel and especially oil I could not wait to trade it in.
I suspect that if I had used it for motorway work I might have liked it better but on our local rural roads it was not happy and I would have been better off with the Tdi version.
jith said:
944fan said:
Dr G said:
They're not that bad really, problems seem more common because VAG make (very literally) MILLIONS of the damn things.
The porous heads they're quietly doing FOC, clutches are because people drive high torque cars around town and slip them, oil pump thing is just a stupid design but not as frequent as you'd believe from the forums and DPF problems are more to do with how the car is driven than the car itself.
They do seem to munch turbos but regular oil changes and properly warming/cooling the engine would (I bet) alleviate a lot of this.
They've made far worse: 2.5 TDI V6, all early FSI N/A, 2.4 V6...
Out of interest why do you say the 2.4 V6? I have one, and aside from it pissing oil everywhere (which all the V6s do I believe) I have never had any problems with it. I am not disagreeing with you, genuinely interested in your viewpoint.The porous heads they're quietly doing FOC, clutches are because people drive high torque cars around town and slip them, oil pump thing is just a stupid design but not as frequent as you'd believe from the forums and DPF problems are more to do with how the car is driven than the car itself.
They do seem to munch turbos but regular oil changes and properly warming/cooling the engine would (I bet) alleviate a lot of this.
They've made far worse: 2.5 TDI V6, all early FSI N/A, 2.4 V6...
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