Is the 2ltr TDI engine the worst VAG ever produced?
Discussion
Hereward said:
The 1.6 FSI petrol is worthy of mention. Not for unreliability but simply for being so incredibly mundane.
Reluctant and coarse much above 3,000 rpm with an absence of any useable torque, the icing on the cake is that it prefers to be run on super unleaded. Give me the 2ltr TDI any day.
The 1.6 petrol engine fitted to the MK4 Golf is even worse. Reluctant and coarse much above 3,000 rpm with an absence of any useable torque, the icing on the cake is that it prefers to be run on super unleaded. Give me the 2ltr TDI any day.
missing the VR6 said:
If it helps to alleviate peoples fears, my folks have a 2.0TDI PD 140 Octavia witha DSG box, it's a 2008/58 car having covered 119500ish miles, engine faultless, and would you believe it the DSG has been immaculate too!!
Don't believe the hype!
My Audi 2.0TDI PD 140 DSG (2007/08) has now done 122,000 without issue.Don't believe the hype!
I'm cursed now, aren't I?
Just to point out that using a hex drive to drive the oil pump isn't new and is tried and tested the Ford 3.0 Essex engines did that back in the 60's, plenty of them still going strong and that engine was fitted to loads of stuff and raced succesfully
http://tvr.m-fix.co.uk/oilpumpv6.htm
surely the 1.4 twin charged engine must have a higher failure rate than the 2.0 diesels? something like 40% of the early ones have had or do have issues
http://tvr.m-fix.co.uk/oilpumpv6.htm
surely the 1.4 twin charged engine must have a higher failure rate than the 2.0 diesels? something like 40% of the early ones have had or do have issues
page3 said:
missing the VR6 said:
If it helps to alleviate peoples fears, my folks have a 2.0TDI PD 140 Octavia witha DSG box, it's a 2008/58 car having covered 119500ish miles, engine faultless, and would you believe it the DSG has been immaculate too!!
Don't believe the hype!
My Audi 2.0TDI PD 140 DSG (2007/08) has now done 122,000 without issue.Don't believe the hype!
I'm cursed now, aren't I?
liner33 said:
Just to point out that using a hex drive to drive the oil pump isn't new and is tried and tested the Ford 3.0 Essex engines did that back in the 60's, plenty of them still going strong and that engine was fitted to loads of stuff and raced succesfully
http://tvr.m-fix.co.uk/oilpumpv6.htm
surely the 1.4 twin charged engine must have a higher failure rate than the 2.0 diesels? something like 40% of the early ones have had or do have issues
Not seen enough of them myself to comment but if you go by 'the forums' they've got to be in the running. EA888 2.0 TFSI in terms of percentage with problems probably high as well but it's actually a really good engine and the repair is free so I think we can forgive it these days.http://tvr.m-fix.co.uk/oilpumpv6.htm
surely the 1.4 twin charged engine must have a higher failure rate than the 2.0 diesels? something like 40% of the early ones have had or do have issues
The twin-charger is a weird sounding thing and too damn complicated for its own good.
jith said:
Oh Dr G, for the first time we are going to disagree with a vengeance. I have to comment on these issues because this is something I feel very strongly about. I trained as a project engineer a long time ago. I then went on to work on the UR rally cars and I personally have driven nothing but Audis since. Having said that all of my cars are pre-millenium. I think the real millenium bug hit car designers: from 2000 onwards you can literally see the quality declining, but not just with VAG cars, it is almost every make.
There are various reasons for this, but high on the agenda is minimal or almost no real development work: almost all of it is simulated on computers and it doesn't work. Combine that with teams of "bright" young, totally inexperienced graduates full of "creative" ideas in the design teams and you have the current situation.
In the good old days we would take new ideas built into cars and thrash the arse off them over the alps and on autobahns until they broke; then we'd modifify them so they didn't break: we did this BEFORE Joe Public got his hands on them. There has never been an era where more "known faults" existed on motor vehicles. It's a bloody disgrace and all of it is down to the manufacturers.
In my almost 40 years experience working on VAG cars I would rate the 2.0 TDi as the worst ever. The worst aspect of this is the oil pump. There are basically 2 versions; one is chain driven, the other gear driven. Regardless of which version it is, the chain or gear doesn't actually drive the pump, it drives the primary balancer shaft, a gear at the end of this then drives the secondary balancer shaft. At the front of this shaft an unbelievably ludicrous piece of s
t in the form of a tiny hex bar that drives the pump. It is a loose fit in both the pump shaft and balancer shaft. Balancer shafts emit harmonious vibrations along their length to balance out the crankshaft vibrations. The last thing you would do is to drive anything from them, especially something as utterly critical as the oil pump. The constant movemment generated on this wee hex drive wears the corners out and it goes round resulting in an instant loss of oil pressure. You have around 3 milliseconds to switch the engine off before it is ruined.
For those of you with no engineering background let me just say that any first year engineering student who is worth his salt would instantly dismiss a design like this as being grossly inadequate and clearly incompetent. I would love to meet the undoubtedly arrogant muppet who designed this and ask them to justify it in engineering terms.
The final straw that breaks the camel's back is the fact that VAG are well aware of this fault but do not publically recognise it. On top of this, when you require a new oil pump from them, and bear in mind DR G's comment about the fact that they make millions of them, they will relieve you of... £1005 plus VAT for a new pump!!!!! That price is correct as of last month when we priced up an engine rebuild on a Passat with total seizure due to this design. A grand for an oil pump on a mass produced car!! Utterly disgraceful!
Then there is the fact that to replace the glowplugs or injectors involves a major strip down of cam gear and followers. The injectors fail regularly and are in the region of 500 quid each. But let's not mention the turbo vane seizure either and the cost of replacement, or the DPF failure at unacceptably low mileages and massive cost to replace.
The sad thing about this is the engine is based on the old 1.9 TDi; arguably one of the best diesel engines ever produced worldwide. My daughter drove an 80 TDi as a student. It was finally disposed off showing 230k on the clock and still returning 55 MPG with all the major components still in place. There are still thousands of these engines in cars all over the world running up collosal mileages with no problems. Why would you change a design that is so proven into an utter disaster?
The V6 engines. My daily is a 1999 A6 2.4. It is in beautiful order and is driven very, very hard. It is totally standard apart from Bilstein shockers. It returns 38 MPG on a run. Using a bit of simple arithmetic it can be shown that it is cheaper to run than it's equivalent diesel cousin due to the fact that diesel is significantly more expensive then petrol in this country. If you also take into account the fact that a major breakdown in a diesel is more likely and will empty your bank account there is, for me, no contest. And for the moment we won't mention the current findings about serious health conditions and heavy diesel, carsinogenic particulates.
One of my customers remarked when I was dropping him off at the station that it was quieter than his Bentley. It is undoubtedly the quietest, smoothest car I have ever owned. It has just turned over 130K and has all the original components still fitted and operating perfectly. The only long term problems associated with these engines are oil leaks. They are simple to fix and always emanate from the same source, i.e. the camshaft oil seals behind the timing belt and the cam cover gaskets. Both are a simple fix, particularly when changing the belt itself. I have driven and worked on dozens of models with the V6 engine and, with the exception of the turbocharged and chain driven engines, have never had to carry out any major engine work whatever.
The 2.4 engine is a development of the old 2.6, the major difference being the change to 5 valve cylinder heads. It is in my opinion the best V6 of all when taken into account reliability, performance and above all, fuel economy. It is an absolute turbine of an engine and feels as if it will last for ever. I have many customers with these engines and all are full of praise for the power unit.
You wonder how bad it will get with "known faults" and massively expensive repairs before the average vehicle lifespan is a year or two.
J
Hi,There are various reasons for this, but high on the agenda is minimal or almost no real development work: almost all of it is simulated on computers and it doesn't work. Combine that with teams of "bright" young, totally inexperienced graduates full of "creative" ideas in the design teams and you have the current situation.
In the good old days we would take new ideas built into cars and thrash the arse off them over the alps and on autobahns until they broke; then we'd modifify them so they didn't break: we did this BEFORE Joe Public got his hands on them. There has never been an era where more "known faults" existed on motor vehicles. It's a bloody disgrace and all of it is down to the manufacturers.
In my almost 40 years experience working on VAG cars I would rate the 2.0 TDi as the worst ever. The worst aspect of this is the oil pump. There are basically 2 versions; one is chain driven, the other gear driven. Regardless of which version it is, the chain or gear doesn't actually drive the pump, it drives the primary balancer shaft, a gear at the end of this then drives the secondary balancer shaft. At the front of this shaft an unbelievably ludicrous piece of s
t in the form of a tiny hex bar that drives the pump. It is a loose fit in both the pump shaft and balancer shaft. Balancer shafts emit harmonious vibrations along their length to balance out the crankshaft vibrations. The last thing you would do is to drive anything from them, especially something as utterly critical as the oil pump. The constant movemment generated on this wee hex drive wears the corners out and it goes round resulting in an instant loss of oil pressure. You have around 3 milliseconds to switch the engine off before it is ruined.For those of you with no engineering background let me just say that any first year engineering student who is worth his salt would instantly dismiss a design like this as being grossly inadequate and clearly incompetent. I would love to meet the undoubtedly arrogant muppet who designed this and ask them to justify it in engineering terms.
The final straw that breaks the camel's back is the fact that VAG are well aware of this fault but do not publically recognise it. On top of this, when you require a new oil pump from them, and bear in mind DR G's comment about the fact that they make millions of them, they will relieve you of... £1005 plus VAT for a new pump!!!!! That price is correct as of last month when we priced up an engine rebuild on a Passat with total seizure due to this design. A grand for an oil pump on a mass produced car!! Utterly disgraceful!
Then there is the fact that to replace the glowplugs or injectors involves a major strip down of cam gear and followers. The injectors fail regularly and are in the region of 500 quid each. But let's not mention the turbo vane seizure either and the cost of replacement, or the DPF failure at unacceptably low mileages and massive cost to replace.
The sad thing about this is the engine is based on the old 1.9 TDi; arguably one of the best diesel engines ever produced worldwide. My daughter drove an 80 TDi as a student. It was finally disposed off showing 230k on the clock and still returning 55 MPG with all the major components still in place. There are still thousands of these engines in cars all over the world running up collosal mileages with no problems. Why would you change a design that is so proven into an utter disaster?
The V6 engines. My daily is a 1999 A6 2.4. It is in beautiful order and is driven very, very hard. It is totally standard apart from Bilstein shockers. It returns 38 MPG on a run. Using a bit of simple arithmetic it can be shown that it is cheaper to run than it's equivalent diesel cousin due to the fact that diesel is significantly more expensive then petrol in this country. If you also take into account the fact that a major breakdown in a diesel is more likely and will empty your bank account there is, for me, no contest. And for the moment we won't mention the current findings about serious health conditions and heavy diesel, carsinogenic particulates.
One of my customers remarked when I was dropping him off at the station that it was quieter than his Bentley. It is undoubtedly the quietest, smoothest car I have ever owned. It has just turned over 130K and has all the original components still fitted and operating perfectly. The only long term problems associated with these engines are oil leaks. They are simple to fix and always emanate from the same source, i.e. the camshaft oil seals behind the timing belt and the cam cover gaskets. Both are a simple fix, particularly when changing the belt itself. I have driven and worked on dozens of models with the V6 engine and, with the exception of the turbocharged and chain driven engines, have never had to carry out any major engine work whatever.
The 2.4 engine is a development of the old 2.6, the major difference being the change to 5 valve cylinder heads. It is in my opinion the best V6 of all when taken into account reliability, performance and above all, fuel economy. It is an absolute turbine of an engine and feels as if it will last for ever. I have many customers with these engines and all are full of praise for the power unit.
You wonder how bad it will get with "known faults" and massively expensive repairs before the average vehicle lifespan is a year or two.
J
very competent opinion. Thanks for that.
Can I ask- what's your opinion for the "new" 2.0 tdi 140 mounted on Octavia 2009-onwards? As it's CR, this must fix some problems from PD (and generate new ones), but I hope issues with oil pumps and heads are resolved? Will appriciate your opinion.
Esseesse said:
Thanks for the replies, sounds like the CR140 is a pretty good 4cyl diesel then. I will sleep easy.
I ran a Passat CC with the TDI CR140 engine for about 4 years and approx. 85k miles. We then bought it for my wife and have taken the mileage up to 111k miles over the last 3 years before selling it last weekend. From my point of view, it still drives as well as it ever did and although the engine's very unrefined at startup and tickover, it pulls well and settles down once up to speed.During the time we've had it, it only ever needed routine servicing (including a new cambelt) and I don't remember ever having to top up the oil between services. It's also always been on the long-life service plan so the car's decided when it needs attention but the periods between services have always been sensible.
Dr G said:
They're not that bad really, problems seem more common because VAG make (very literally) MILLIONS of the damn things.
.
This. .
It is very common on car forums to read all the tales of woe simply because people who have a working car don't feel the need to start a new thread every week to say they have no problems.
As far as I can tell nearly every engine has its weaknesses, on some it is a frequent but easy fix, others it's rare and bloody expensive and some are clearly made more common as a result of neglect.
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