Wildcat Rover V8 in Mod Griffith chassis
Discussion
Hi kokkolanpoika
I read with interest the spec. of your engine. For me to replicate what you have built, I have estimated the cost as follows: (This is given as a guide.)
£ 2,000 - Jenvey throttle bodies based induction inc. injectors, fuel rails, linkage, airhorns etc.
£ 1,500 - After market ECU and loom
£ 350 - Frontcover with oil pump
£ 1,500 - Cylinder block
£ 1,200 - Ross Forged Pistons & rings
£ 1,000 - Steel rods
£ 2,500 - Steel crankshaft
£ 400 - Steel flywheel
£ 500 - Cam kit including cam lifters & timing gear
£ 700 - Roller rockers with standard shafts and steel outrigger rocker posts
£ 50 - Gaskets
£ 600 - Dyno set-up of engine
£12,300 - Running total
£ 2,000 - plus Modified cylinder heads with bigger valves
£14,300 Total
plus labourer to build.
Rover engines aren't cheap to modify, build and tune. The Wildcat engine seems to be fairly priced given the spec. The price is not dissimilar to that of other Rover V8 specialists for a completely built, Dyno 5-Ltr engine based here in the UK.
I have been tuning, modifying and building Rover V8 engines in my projects for twenty five years. Your quoted Dyno figures are the best I have ever seen from a Rover V8 with modified cylinder heads using the standard castings . Could you post better pictures showing your head work and the Dyno sheet?. Where was this Dyno done?
precat
I read with interest the spec. of your engine. For me to replicate what you have built, I have estimated the cost as follows: (This is given as a guide.)
£ 2,000 - Jenvey throttle bodies based induction inc. injectors, fuel rails, linkage, airhorns etc.
£ 1,500 - After market ECU and loom
£ 350 - Frontcover with oil pump
£ 1,500 - Cylinder block
£ 1,200 - Ross Forged Pistons & rings
£ 1,000 - Steel rods
£ 2,500 - Steel crankshaft
£ 400 - Steel flywheel
£ 500 - Cam kit including cam lifters & timing gear
£ 700 - Roller rockers with standard shafts and steel outrigger rocker posts
£ 50 - Gaskets
£ 600 - Dyno set-up of engine
£12,300 - Running total
£ 2,000 - plus Modified cylinder heads with bigger valves
£14,300 Total
plus labourer to build.
Rover engines aren't cheap to modify, build and tune. The Wildcat engine seems to be fairly priced given the spec. The price is not dissimilar to that of other Rover V8 specialists for a completely built, Dyno 5-Ltr engine based here in the UK.
I have been tuning, modifying and building Rover V8 engines in my projects for twenty five years. Your quoted Dyno figures are the best I have ever seen from a Rover V8 with modified cylinder heads using the standard castings . Could you post better pictures showing your head work and the Dyno sheet?. Where was this Dyno done?
precat
Edited by Precat on Friday 15th January 00:34
^ Some of those figures are just wrong. £1500 for an ecu and loom? Surely that's to much. Isn't the Canam ecu about £1k with a harness? As for the engine block, it's under £1k to have one linered to 96mm and most of us have a block. Steel crank, why bother, just get a cast one and stroke it. The billet steel items are usually massively heavy. Rods, presumably Chevy are a few hundred pounds if you look on ebey.
Edited by Boosted LS1 on Friday 15th January 09:30
Ah, I know what happened, there was a typo on the ecu price. £1k -£1500 should get something reasonable I would have thought. Edited by Boosted LS1 on Friday 15th January 09:38
Boosted LS1 said:
^ Some of those figures are just wrong. £1500 for an ecu and loom? Surely that's to much. Isn't the Canam ecu about £1k with a harness? As for the engine block, it's under £1k to have one linered to 96mm and most of us have a block. Steel crank, why bother, just get a cast one and stroke it. The billet steel items are usually massively heavy. Rods, presumably Chevy are a few hundred pounds if you look on ebey.
Yes, it was a typo - thanks for highlighting it.Edited by Boosted LS1 on Friday 15th January 09:30
Ah, I know what happened, there was a typo on the ecu price. £1k -£1500 should get something reasonable I would have thought. Edited by Boosted LS1 on Friday 15th January 09:38
I would also use a Cast crankshaft. However, my aim was to replicate kokkokolanpoika's spec. which includes a steel crankshaft.
Yes, one can buy rods on Ebay. I have done so in the past with varying degrees of success, therefore I would not recommend this approach to the layman.
I notice you are a professional engine builder. Your website lists you build Rover V8s but there are no prices. For comparison purposes, I'd be interested in your price for the same spec Rover V8 engine
As you are in the Trade, you can buy components at trade prices. My guide price is based on my experience of paying retail prices for Rover engine components from Rover V8 specialists. The last time I shopped around for a Cylinder block, I was quoted £1500, excluding Top hat liners. One specialist won't even sell Cylinder blocks on their own, due to limited supply. Another will only recondition customer-supplied cylinder blocks by fitting Top hat liners for around £1,000.
Precat
MPoxon said:
Thanks for the spec Timo certainly looks like a nice setup. Very interesting for me as I would really like a 400BHP NA rover engine at some point. What is it like to drive around town / in traffic. I assume with the throttle bodies you do not have the usual issues with shunting when running a plenum and an aggressive cam.
Have you got a picture of the throttle body setup?
Why go to all those lengths and expense when you can use a Supercharger which won't change the nature of the engine and cost a fraction? Have you got a picture of the throttle body setup?
Precat said:
Yes, it was a typo - thanks for highlighting it.
I would also use a Cast crankshaft. However, my aim was to replicate kokkokolanpoika's spec. which includes a steel crankshaft.
Yes, one can buy rods on Ebay. I have done so in the past with varying degrees of success, therefore I would not recommend this approach to the layman.
I notice you are a professional engine builder. Your website lists you build Rover V8s but there are no prices. For comparison purposes, I'd be interested in your price for the same spec Rover V8 engine
As you are in the Trade, you can buy components at trade prices. My guide price is based on my experience of paying retail prices for Rover engine components from Rover V8 specialists. The last time I shopped around for a Cylinder block, I was quoted £1500, excluding Top hat liners. One specialist won't even sell Cylinder blocks on their own, due to limited supply. Another will only recondition customer-supplied cylinder blocks by fitting Top hat liners for around £1,000.
Precat
Hmm, I've never seen a forged rv8 crank. I've used Amco steel items for the buick but those are cast in steel and need some block work to install. That was eons ago though. A billit crank would be expensive. The stock 4.6 cranks can sometimes be maxed out at 91 mm if ground undersize. If you already have an engine you would reliner it for under £1k, pay a grinder to offset grind the crank (or go to a builder and buy one) and order your pistons (£1200 is in the ball park). The chevy rods aren't to difficult to narrow if you use a jig to hold them firmly. You need the fuellie items with 2.0" journals. TWR reconditioned rods are probably £200. Aftermarket forged £400 perhaps. If using one of my cranks you can stroke to 5.5 litres with a 96mm bore but I haven't had a recent price on machining yet. 2 are away at the moment so I should know shortly. Your other prices are in the ball park I'd say. I would also use a Cast crankshaft. However, my aim was to replicate kokkokolanpoika's spec. which includes a steel crankshaft.
Yes, one can buy rods on Ebay. I have done so in the past with varying degrees of success, therefore I would not recommend this approach to the layman.
I notice you are a professional engine builder. Your website lists you build Rover V8s but there are no prices. For comparison purposes, I'd be interested in your price for the same spec Rover V8 engine
As you are in the Trade, you can buy components at trade prices. My guide price is based on my experience of paying retail prices for Rover engine components from Rover V8 specialists. The last time I shopped around for a Cylinder block, I was quoted £1500, excluding Top hat liners. One specialist won't even sell Cylinder blocks on their own, due to limited supply. Another will only recondition customer-supplied cylinder blocks by fitting Top hat liners for around £1,000.
Precat
900T-R said:
NickOrangeCars said:
Why go to all those lengths and expense when you can use a Supercharger which won't change the nature of the engine and cost a fraction?
Because a naturally aspirated engine on ITBs is on a whole different level for engine response and sound? 
Mike,
Found a few forged cranks via Google image links. Either offer or can produce RV8 steel cranks.
http://www.triumphroverspares.com.au/page.asp?pare...
http://www.crankshaftrebuilders.com.au/Auscrank.as...
www.crower.com/
http://midlandcrankshaft.com/
http://www.marinecrankshaftinc.com/billet-cranksha...
Phil
Found a few forged cranks via Google image links. Either offer or can produce RV8 steel cranks.
http://www.triumphroverspares.com.au/page.asp?pare...
http://www.crankshaftrebuilders.com.au/Auscrank.as...
www.crower.com/
http://midlandcrankshaft.com/
http://www.marinecrankshaftinc.com/billet-cranksha...
Phil
Hi Phil,
Thanks for that. The first link looks promising but I can't enlarge the pic to see if it's an actual forging. I suspect it will be because in Oz they're willing to 'tool up' unlike over here.
The second link looks good to, again from Aus. I'm not sure it's an actual forged crankshaft in the true sense though.
I couldn't find a Rover v8 forging on the Crower site.
I know Midland Cranks and afaik they don't have an RV8 forging. I've never heard of it if they do. They're machinists.
Marine cranks seem to machine from billet.
So, it looks like Australia 2. Rest of the World O.
Thanks for that. The first link looks promising but I can't enlarge the pic to see if it's an actual forging. I suspect it will be because in Oz they're willing to 'tool up' unlike over here.
The second link looks good to, again from Aus. I'm not sure it's an actual forged crankshaft in the true sense though.
I couldn't find a Rover v8 forging on the Crower site.
I know Midland Cranks and afaik they don't have an RV8 forging. I've never heard of it if they do. They're machinists.
Marine cranks seem to machine from billet.
So, it looks like Australia 2. Rest of the World O.
^ Very likely if the rod journals had the correct spacing.
Usually forged cranks are forged to shape and machined to finish. The tooling to make a forging must be immensely expensive.
In one of the links above they may have been forging a bar and machining from that? A bit like machining from abillet. I dunno, just wondering.
Usually forged cranks are forged to shape and machined to finish. The tooling to make a forging must be immensely expensive.
In one of the links above they may have been forging a bar and machining from that? A bit like machining from abillet. I dunno, just wondering.
I will try to find some pick of my engine..
But my bottom end will cost approx 1700£ inv vat and freight charge to Finland.
It will inc T-hat block, crank, rods and 8pistons + new bearings, but i replace 4 piston and set of 8 ring´s, and they will cost approx 400£ + block hone approx 80£ inc vat
Roller rockers approx 330£ inv vat + shipping from USA
New old stock M256cam + lifters approx 160£ inc vat
ITB setup approx 1200£ inc vat + injectors 300£
MS3X approx 930£ inc vat
Mapping/dyno time only 100£ + some fuel on street £££?.. inc vat
Head work inc valves, guides, spring´s etc what needed inc machining.. approx 900£ inc vat
Flywheel approx 340£ inc vat
Exhaust manifold´s inc exhaust pipe and mufflers approx 280£, manifold only 133£ inc vat.
Home made alloy custom oil sump, free
Timing cover free, bought serpentine engine, and sell rest of engine same price..
ARP studs, timing chain etc approx 250£ inc vat..
Gasket etc 250£? inc vat,
I think this inc all what needed to run.. Approx 7220£. Price is approximately £ to € conversion.. I think it will cost less than 7220£
+ some home work..
So you will get paycheck if build part´s separately here and there, and not buy some ITB setup kit straight from dealer..
But my bottom end will cost approx 1700£ inv vat and freight charge to Finland.
It will inc T-hat block, crank, rods and 8pistons + new bearings, but i replace 4 piston and set of 8 ring´s, and they will cost approx 400£ + block hone approx 80£ inc vat
Roller rockers approx 330£ inv vat + shipping from USA
New old stock M256cam + lifters approx 160£ inc vat
ITB setup approx 1200£ inc vat + injectors 300£
MS3X approx 930£ inc vat
Mapping/dyno time only 100£ + some fuel on street £££?.. inc vat
Head work inc valves, guides, spring´s etc what needed inc machining.. approx 900£ inc vat
Flywheel approx 340£ inc vat
Exhaust manifold´s inc exhaust pipe and mufflers approx 280£, manifold only 133£ inc vat.
Home made alloy custom oil sump, free
Timing cover free, bought serpentine engine, and sell rest of engine same price..
ARP studs, timing chain etc approx 250£ inc vat..
Gasket etc 250£? inc vat,
I think this inc all what needed to run.. Approx 7220£. Price is approximately £ to € conversion.. I think it will cost less than 7220£
+ some home work..
So you will get paycheck if build part´s separately here and there, and not buy some ITB setup kit straight from dealer..
Edited by Kokkolanpoika on Friday 15th January 14:13
Edited by Kokkolanpoika on Friday 15th January 14:21
NickOrangeCars said:
Why go to all those lengths and expense when you can use a Supercharger which won't change the nature of the engine and cost a fraction?
As per the other responses for me I love the fact my TVR is Naturally Aspirated. In a world where NA engines are a dying breed I would like to keep hold of my NA engine. It is also Ian Rose's fault after being taken out in his 5.2 Rover V8 with JE Individual Throttle Bodies, the sound it just immense. Not wishing to take anything away from you and the others who have built absolutely fantastic SC and Turbo engines and put the RV8 into a envelope of performance which many thought to be impossible. I know TVR Power are building some monsters now as well but for people like yourself and Mac who have built there own engines I have nothing but respect for you...... BUT for me personally the Griffith is also about that NA engine.
Yes i have got 90mm forged crank. Our machine shop also say that it will look forged item.. It will weight approx 25Kg without rods´s etc.. STD 4.6 crank will weight only approx 20Kg
I bought my engine 2nd hand from RPI many year´s ago. They say it will make very small tapping sound and found that it has got one approx 0.05mm smaller piston and it might get that sound. Bore clearance is 0.16mm when i measure it. It has got ross forged piston´s and Manley 5.85" rod´s and crank has got laser writet text Rover 91mm. But it has got 90mm when i measure it.
Piston has got in the midle big valve pocket´s witch wont fit in the rover valve´s. So i also have to cut more valve pocket´s..
This is the picture what RPI sent..
When home.
I found bigger problem from that noise what RPI say´s.. 2x rod bolt´s will hit block oil gallery tunnel, there is zero clearance and crank will stop straight away.. I did not resolve how this engine can be 2nd hand unit direct from drive.. i ask this from them, and they did not get answer, they say that send engine back to them, and they can resolve my problem.. No i did not send it, i will machine some metal from bolt, block and rod to get more room..
It has got mutch wider parting line in the centre of crank also..
I bought my engine 2nd hand from RPI many year´s ago. They say it will make very small tapping sound and found that it has got one approx 0.05mm smaller piston and it might get that sound. Bore clearance is 0.16mm when i measure it. It has got ross forged piston´s and Manley 5.85" rod´s and crank has got laser writet text Rover 91mm. But it has got 90mm when i measure it.
Piston has got in the midle big valve pocket´s witch wont fit in the rover valve´s. So i also have to cut more valve pocket´s..
This is the picture what RPI sent..
When home.
I found bigger problem from that noise what RPI say´s.. 2x rod bolt´s will hit block oil gallery tunnel, there is zero clearance and crank will stop straight away.. I did not resolve how this engine can be 2nd hand unit direct from drive.. i ask this from them, and they did not get answer, they say that send engine back to them, and they can resolve my problem.. No i did not send it, i will machine some metal from bolt, block and rod to get more room..
It has got mutch wider parting line in the centre of crank also..
Edited by Kokkolanpoika on Friday 15th January 15:17
Timo,
To sort the oil gallery either insert a copper tube into it. Then you can grind away the alloy casing part that's causing the obstruction. Or, make the oil gallery external. I've done both in the past. Obviously the engine never ran before you got it. I remember your posts on the Rv8 forums.
Your crank does look 'special'. Have you got a better picture of it? I could probably identify it.
The wide parting line indicates a forging.
To sort the oil gallery either insert a copper tube into it. Then you can grind away the alloy casing part that's causing the obstruction. Or, make the oil gallery external. I've done both in the past. Obviously the engine never ran before you got it. I remember your posts on the Rv8 forums.
Your crank does look 'special'. Have you got a better picture of it? I could probably identify it.
The wide parting line indicates a forging.
No i do not have any better picture of my crank. Bottom end is in the car
When i ask piston´s of this engine year´s ago.. Spoke to V8 Developments. They estimate that this engine has been build by wild cat engineering, because they are only company who use ross pistons at this time.. RPI say´s that it might be V8 developments engine.. And also forged crank is wild cat engineering item usually..
So i order set of piston´s my local ross piston´s suplier..
I resolve my oil gallery clearance issues year´s ago, and run without issues year´s. But want some more my engine, new cam and more head work..
Home made alloy oil sump
Roller rocker and spacer setup..
When i ask piston´s of this engine year´s ago.. Spoke to V8 Developments. They estimate that this engine has been build by wild cat engineering, because they are only company who use ross pistons at this time.. RPI say´s that it might be V8 developments engine.. And also forged crank is wild cat engineering item usually..
So i order set of piston´s my local ross piston´s suplier..
I resolve my oil gallery clearance issues year´s ago, and run without issues year´s. But want some more my engine, new cam and more head work..
Home made alloy oil sump
Roller rocker and spacer setup..
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