Clutch options for 5.0ltr V8

[s3c chris]

When I phoned AP on Friday I gave the part numbers that I quoted, the same as the ones shown in the pictures.
The gentleman at AP,said these were the correct parts for a 500 and were not currently in stock......

My Griff has a nice clutch action and from what I can see it is still the original factory one. Also on a recent visit to Central I was told that the best clutch was the AP one, nice and light to use unlike the Helix version.

Regards Chris.

[sparkythecat]

Sardonicus said:

From a far early post ..........

This the information I received from AP racing

You can order the above via our agent in the North, Questmead in Rochdale [e-mail]

Peter Collen AP Racing

Hope this helps.

Questmead are now 'trade only' suppliers according to their website.

[stevesprint]

Sardonicus said:

From a far early post ..........
AP Racing used to supply TVR with a medium torque clutch kit.
CP2345-8 pressure plate, clamp load 1900lb, retail 97.12 + vat
CP2346-4 driven plate, spring centre, organic facings, 1.0"x23T spline. retail 92.55 + vat
this combination will handle 270lbft.

Simon
Thanks for the clarification you’re right as usual , I’ve checked AP’s website.

This means OEM 500 clutches are only rated at 270 lbft which is worrying low, even my old 4.3 has more torque than that.

Matthew Poxon said:

Another vote for the TVR Power 500 clutch. very pleased with mine.

However, if Powers's clutches are good enough for Matt’s track days fingers crossed they are good enough for me.

[ChimpOnGas]

stevesprint said:

Sardonicus said:

From a far early post ..........
AP Racing used to supply TVR with a medium torque clutch kit.
CP2345-8 pressure plate, clamp load 1900lb, retail 97.12 + vat
CP2346-4 driven plate, spring centre, organic facings, 1.0"x23T spline. retail 92.55 + vat
this combination will handle 270lbft.

Simon
Thanks for the clarification you’re right as usual , I’ve checked AP’s website.

This means OEM 500 clutches are only rated at 270 lbft which is worrying low, even my old 4.3 has more torque than that.

Matthew Poxon said:

Another vote for the TVR Power 500 clutch. very pleased with mine.

However, if Powers's clutches are good enough for Matt’s track days fingers crossed they are good enough for me.

AP are probably like Tremec when it comes to quoting max torque figures, IE they er on the side of caution and give a way lower torque figure than the unit will actually reliably take, Borg Warner were know to knock 20% off and it's common knowledge Tremec followed suit.

This is good business practice from professional manufacturers, a clutch is a consumable item and very open to operator error, different drivers can give a clutch very different treatment so I wouldn't blame AP for knocking 20% off to give a margin of head space in their rating.

270 ft/lbs plus 20% = 324 ft/lbs

[Sardonicus]

ChimpOnGas said:

stevesprint said:

Sardonicus said:

From a far early post ..........
AP Racing used to supply TVR with a medium torque clutch kit.
CP2345-8 pressure plate, clamp load 1900lb, retail 97.12 + vat
CP2346-4 driven plate, spring centre, organic facings, 1.0"x23T spline. retail 92.55 + vat
this combination will handle 270lbft.

Simon
Thanks for the clarification you’re right as usual , I’ve checked AP’s website.

This means OEM 500 clutches are only rated at 270 lbft which is worrying low, even my old 4.3 has more torque than that.

Matthew Poxon said:

Another vote for the TVR Power 500 clutch. very pleased with mine.

However, if Powers's clutches are good enough for Matt’s track days fingers crossed they are good enough for me.

AP are probably like Tremec when it comes to quoting max torque figures, IE they er on the side of caution and give a way lower torque figure than the unit will actually reliably take, Borg Warner were know to knock 20% off and it's common knowledge Tremec followed suit.

This is good business practice from professional manufacturers, a clutch is a consumable item and very open to operator error, different drivers can give a clutch very different treatment so I wouldn't blame AP for knocking 20% off to give a margin of head space in their rating.

270 ft/lbs plus 20% = 324 ft/lbs

This ^ pretty much

[TarmacRV8]

Triumph rover spares . Sth aus australia, has many solutions if got decent power and sticky tyres. Great knowledge, Reasonable price and fast delivery anywhere. Ask for ian
I use a 4 puck brass button clutch that is light and engages nice enough for weekly street driving. Claimed to be Good for 450hp and sticky tyres.
Ive exceeded that now with new engine so see how it holds out.

[KevtheRev]

Pretty sure mine's the original clutch in my Griff 500 and with a bit of squinting it reads CP2345-8
That ties up with all cars including 500's fitted with the medium torque cover that's still available.

[stevesprint]

KevtheRev said:

Pretty sure mine's the original clutch in my Griff 500 and with a bit of squinting it reads CP2345-8
That ties up with all cars including 500's fitted with the medium torque cover that's still available.

Kev
Thanks for your picture and confirming your clutch cover part number. You can see from the AP racing spec sheet below both CP2345-4 and CP2345-8 have the same torque capacity of 270 Lbs/ft and the only difference is the type of release bearing, round nose or flat face.



Here's the high torque cover for comparison


TVR Parts have confirmed via email TVR Q0025 is CP2345-4 & TVR Q0101 is CP2346-4 and both are for 450/500 Chimaera & Griffiths, plus the part reference numbers come through TVRs listings (in the Blackpool days) and Multipart’s database. They have been supplying CP2345-4 for 500s for 15 years with zero problems and commented TVR's lower than average kerb weight is no doubt a factor in the specification.

ChimpOnGas said:

Good info Simon

So it looks like I got the 4.0 litre kit with the 10% lighter action than the 5.0 litre, that's ideal as this lighter action is exactly what I wanted.



I love the feel of my AP4.0 litre kit, the take up is light, controllable and progressive, it's a super smooth and very forgiving clutch.

'Ol Gasbag' is recorded as producing a proven 260 ft/lbs so the AP Racing 4.0 litre kit rated at 270 ft/lbs seems spot on for me.

This is definitely the best clutch I've had by far

COG, this means you have a 500 clutch, enjoy !!!!

Edited by stevesprint on Sunday 2nd December 23:57

[waggy]

I changed my clutch last july, mines a preserp 500 with T5 gearbox... The clutch that was originally fitted from new was a CP2345-4 and CP2346-4 , my car has done 50k on this clutch and it was hardly worn. That includes a few track days.

The only reason I changed it was the slave cylinder burst a seal and covered the clutch in clutch fluid.

I recommend you replace all the clutch parts inc the Arm and Pivot pin as it was quite worn and use a new plastic clip for the slave pin. I also replaced the main oil seal behind the flywheel.

your prices seem quite low as it cost me nearly £600 for all the bits from Tvr Parts, and they were the cheapest..The Helix Clutch kit quoted on their website is heavier to use than the AP one. I know someone that fitted one..

The clutch now feels as light as it did before.. No need for a heavier clutch...

Good luck as its quite a daunting job..

Edited by waggy on Sunday 17th February 16:13

[ChimpOnGas]

stevesprint said:

COG, this means you have a 500 clutch, enjoy !!!!

That's great news Steve, my AP clutch kit shown below (CP2345-4 and CP2346-4) was fitted by Mat Smith in early October 2018 and I've been absolutely delighted with it ever since



I cannot recommend Mat Smith highly enough, Mat has huge knowledge of our cars and it's quite clear there is no substitute for experience. You might think selecting and fitting a clutch to a Chimaera is a straightforward exercise however if my experiences are anything to go by people are well advised not to make such assumptions!

Unbelievably in less than 50,000 miles I've actually had four clutches in my TVR, this has been an expessive and frustrating journey so here's my clutch story which I hope will serve as a warning to all my Chimaera & Griffith owning friends.......................


CLUTCH NUMBER ONE - TVR ORIGINAL

I bought my 4.0HC Chimaera ten years ago at 30,000 miles, soon after this the clutch started to slip which surprised me to be honest as it seemed like a very short life. However with no way of knowing how the previous owner treated the clutch I couldn't really say what TVR fitted was at fault, I just moved on and fitted a new clutch.


CLUTCH NUMBER TWO - THE HEAVY HELIX

At the time everyone was raving about the Helix from V8 Developments so this is what I chose, this clutch was definitely a little heavier that the original but not massively so, or so I thought. However a year or so later I drove a very original low mileage 500 and the clutch was way way lighter and felt far nicer in operation, at this point I should have realised AP was the way to go.

The more Chimaeras I drove the more I realised just how heavy my Helix clutch actually was by comparison, this started to really bug me and to me the action of my clutch never felt right. I had baulky gear selection issue at low speed which seemed to suggest the clutch was dragging, a few years later I had a failure of my 5th gear sychro ring which when removed was definitely burnt .


CLUTCH NUMBER THREE - THE LLOYD SPECIALIST DEVELOPMENTS LAND ROVER CLUTCH

So at this point I figured I'd get rid of the heavy Helix, if it was genuinely dragging it needed to go and with the box out to fix the 5th gear synchro it was the logical opportunity to fit something lighter with a nicer action. As Lloyd Specialist Developments were changing the synchro ring I accepted their recommendation to fit their clutch offering, this clutch was definitely lighter and nicer to use but TBH I was still left a slightly baulky gear change at low speed so I couldn't help feeling it was still dragging and something fundamental had been missed

Less than three years into running this Lloyd Specialist Developments clutch it started to judder and would slip in higher gears under power, this was now my third clutch in 10 years if we include the TVR original so by this time I was getting properly fed up with all the spending on what should be a straightforward component.

Here's the Lloyd Specialist Developments driven plate after less than three years, for the record I subsequently discovered this is a Land Rover component:



And here's what happened to the cover plate face and my lovely TTV Racing 18lb chromo steel flywheel:





On further inspection the numbers on the Lloyd Specialist Developments cover plate also seemed to suggest it was also a Land Rover component.




CLUTCH NUMBER FOUR - THE AP CLUTCH FITTED BY MAT SMITH

As you can imagine by this time I was totally fed up with the whole clutch saga and very disappointed with the short life of the Lloyd Specialist Developments Land Rover clutch which despite what was revealed when we removed it was not abused my myself. I needed a proper clutch solution, I also wanted someone to fit it who had extensive experience of TVRs over many years as I suspected there was more going on with all this than first met the eye.

I chose Mat Smith on the recommendation of a number of trusted fellow TVR owners, I knew of him and his extensive experience with our cars stretching back to the days when out cars were new and Mat learnt his trade at Brundle TVR but had never used his services. I felt my whole clutch setup needed to be completely checked over by an experience eye from pedal to flywheel as for many years I suspected something was fundamentally not right!

The above pictures of the Lloyds Land Rover clutch were taken by Mat, he also discovered the following:

1. A nasty galled release arm pivot pin that was clearly missed by others as this type of wear didn't just happen in the short period I ran the Lloyds clutch.



2. The slave cylinder push rod that had slipped out of the failed retaining clip and had almost completely punched its way through the reinforced release arm, further evidence if you're doing this job you absolutely must, as a matter or course, replace the retaining clip with a new fresh one!





This push rod clip is actually spot welded to the back face of the release arm so the truth is you are well advised to fit a whole new release arm or you could end up where I did with the push rod slipped out of alignment. My release arm was the original and had been reused by Lloyds when they fitted their Land Rover clutch, given it gone through the heavy Helix period it really should have been replaced even if the clip seemed sound at the time.

I had made sure my release arm was reinforced with a thick steel plate at that time the Helix clutch was fitted but it appears this just transferred the load to the clip which broke at some point, it was either missed by Lloyds or it broke free in the short period I ran their clutch

3. Now for the next discovery from Mat Smith, the clutch release bearing carrier clearance issue:



Mat explained he sees this release bearing carrier clearance issue from time to time on Chimaeras, to be honest it's not something I would have spotted myself and had been missed by everyone else who had fitted the various clutches to my TVR. This is where Mat's experience came through again, he spotted it and had a fix, he spun the carrier down on his lathe and pronounced the issue that may well have come with the car from new as being finally fixed after all these years.

I believe it's highly likely this is why my original TVR clutch only lasted 35,000 miles, I also believe the release bearing carrier clearance issue caused my driven plate to drag which is why none of my previous clutches ever felt right, why my low speed gear selection was always baulky and got worse as the car became heat soaked, and why my 5th gear syncho prematurely burnt out

Mat then fitted the excellent AP clutch, replaced the gauled pivot pin with new, replaced the release arm & clip with a new arm, fitted the release bearing carrier he'd machined down and obviously the new release bearing that came with the AP kit all this along with new slipper pads ect ect.

The result was a spectacular improvement in all respects, the AP clutch weight and action was a joy, gear selection was no longer baulky and finally allowed my Chevy S10 TVR gear linkage delete mod to shine. The clutch take up was now beautifully controllable and easy to modulate compared with all the other clutches I'd had including the TVR original.

So the moral of the story is 'There's no substitute for experience', using Mat Smith was definitely the right choice as he spotted things others simply missed. Mat also insisted on a full compliment of new parts which again was definitely the professional and correct approach, so after all these years of clutch misery Mat came through to finally give me a quality result.

The car is now a joy to drive with a lovely clutch action, no dragging issues, and the slickest T5 gear change I've experienced on any TVR, Mat Smith Sports Cars and the proper AP clutch set is definitely the way to go

[V8Bart]

Just to hijack the thread a little, I've got a 500 with the helix clutch. Unfortunately I have to admit that I can't physically manage it any more.
Since the ap racing one seems hard to source does anyone have one they've not used and be willing to sell?

Many thanks in advance.

[Boosted LS1]

Have you looked at Mantic clutches. My one came in an aluminium briefcase and I've very impressed with it. A trawl around their site may help or if not, shoot off an email to see if they can help.

Mines cerametalic and the plates have the marcel strip so they are light and progressive just like my McLeods but the mantic appears to be better quality.

[phazed]

V8Bart said:

Just to hijack the thread a little, I've got a 500 with the helix clutch. Unfortunately I have to admit that I can't physically manage it any more.
Since the ap racing one seems hard to source does anyone have one they've not used and be willing to sell?

Many thanks in advance.

Call powers parts department and speak to the guy there, (can’t recall his name at the moment).

I have one of their, “special clutches “that I’m sure he would let you have as a reasonable price. I won’t say any more but speak to him first.

When I say I have one of these it is the only one of this type and it is unused and sitting on my bench. Just saying. Might be useful.

[Sardonicus]

Just to add to Dave's/Chimpongas release bearing woes, I measured my clearance for reference the other day stock AP 500 clutch whilst on the ramp and got 7mm between release carrier and input shaft sleeve shoulder , so not a great deal when those fingers start pushing that bearing tighter towards the gearbox with driven plate wear that combined with a bit of machining tolerance's etc you can see how some run into issues

[V8Bart]

Cheers for the pointers chaps.
Ill have a look at both options, really appreciate it.

[QBee]

V8Bart said:

Just to hijack the thread a little, I've got a 500 with the helix clutch. Unfortunately I have to admit that I can't physically manage it any more.
Since the ap racing one seems hard to source does anyone have one they've not used and be willing to sell?

Many thanks in advance.

You can add servo assistance. I had to. It reduces the weight of the clutch by about 40-45%.

[ChimpOnGas]

Sardonicus said:

Just to add to Dave's/Chimpongas release bearing woes, I measured my clearance for reference the other day stock AP 500 clutch whilst on the ramp and got 7mm between release carrier and input shaft sleeve shoulder , so not a great deal when those fingers start pushing that bearing tighter towards the gearbox with driven plate wear that combined with a bit of machining tolerance's etc you can see how some run into issues

Exactly Simon, I'm pretty sure now the issue killed my 5th gear synchro ring , I believe 5th is the only gear to have a brass synchro ring in a T5 which I guess its why it failed and I've suffered no issues with the others.

Since owning the car all my various clutches dragged when the engine became heat soaked, and no one spotted the clearance issue including myself until I discussed it with Mat Smith, he knew all about the issue and solved it with some lathe work then finished the job off by fitting a lovely AP clutch which by itself is far far nicer than anything else I've had.

The work totally transformed the car especially driving around and parking in town, Mat nailed it where I and a good few others missed the real issue

[MisterT]

Quote from another thread reference the release bearing clearance, and not wanting to hi-jack Matthews's engine rebuild thread with gearbox stuff....

ChimpOnGas said:

That's a thing of beauty Mike

Your choice of 6.5kg (14.33lbs) is a more or less 4.5lbs lighter than mine which is brave, but I think you'll be fine, a torquie 5.0 litre running the fully sequential GEMS system should be as smooth as silk.

I also had a Helix but now run a AP 5.0 litre clutch and the difference is night and day, do take the opportunity to check your release bearing carrier clearance though as this was an issue my Chimaera had from the day the car left Bristol Avenue in 1996, more on this here...

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

See my post dated Wednesday 29th Feb.

Dave, thanks for the tip, as the car is still on stands I've just been under to check the clearance and it looks fine, this is with the release bearing just touching the clutch cover fingers, about 6-7mm clearance to the input bearing carrier shoulder, should be enough to accommodate clutch wear over the life of the clutch

[MikeE]

I’m about to embark on an engine, clutch and gearbox refresh and found this thread from 2018/2019. Is there any update on the best clutch available (at a reasonable price) for a 300bhp RV8?

I can see TVR-Parts list the Helix 500 clutch kit at £330 but is this still too heavy versus the (still unavailable?) AP clutch?

[phazed]

My Helix was awful.............

Heavy and juddery.

Went to a Mcloed twin plate.