Power Steering ??? a good thing?
Discussion
shpub said: What I actually said was that the purist adage of having better feel with non-PAS cars improved the ability to drive quicker was rubbish as the time you start to feel through the steering that something is wrong, it is too late and even with the PAS it is unlikely to help you or stop you going into a ditch. I did not say that PAS made all the difference. Good drivers can feel through the rest of their body what the car is doing and these signals are usually earlier than the steering feel. This means the appropriate corrective action can be applied earlier where it is more effective. With PAS the window for applying that correction is a bit bigger and therefore it is easier to drive these cars closer on the edge than with a manual car.
In the end it is a personal choice but if you want to get the best out of the car, PAS is a big big step forward. It also allows you to run wider tyres for improved grip without needing Arnie's biceps.
Steve
Without getting drawn into a religous debate, I would just say that the arguments for and against PAS are not conclusive either way. The biggest argument for PAS is that your arms don't get as tired in normal driving and manouvering. Personally, I don't find this is a problem. My experience is that when you're at the limit of grip non-assisted gives clearer feedback, and at any significant speed the weight of the steering is so low that PAS would be no advantage. Cornering on the limit, the (non-assisted) steering on the S is so light that I can literally hold it between finger and thumb, and I can tell from the self-aligning torque how much more grip is available without waiting for the car to start to slide. From that point of view, the steering gives much earlier feedback than the 'seat-of-your-pants' feedback that the car is starting to slide.
Like you say, it's a personal choice and what suits me may not suit you.
Cheers,
Peter Humphries (and a green V8S)
I was trying not get drawn into this one but ah well why not?
After trying both PAS and non-PAS cars I chose to order my Griffith without PAS. This was late 98/early 99 and at the time I felt that the PAS cars were over assisted, with a tendency to follow the camber of the road with every pot-hole causing the steering twitch with the car promptly running off in any direction! (I exaggerate of course but that is what it felt like) The non-PAS cars simply didn't do this. Both my wife and I remarked on this so it wasn't unique to me. And as Denise (5'4" so not an Amazon!) tested both the Griff 500's and Chimaeras with and without PAS and preferred the non-PAS cars, don't believe all this about needing arms like "Arnie" to drive them.
Maybe it was because we were both used to driving my S3c but the Griffith actually felt lighter and easier to park than the S - so we were happy without PAS.
The only thing I can think is that the PAS cars have a quicker ratio rack (2.2 vs. 2.7 lock-to-lock) and this would of course concur with Steve’s thoughts about them being better on the track, not necessarily because of the PAS but because the quicker rack obviously makes catching the tail easier. Rich...
After trying both PAS and non-PAS cars I chose to order my Griffith without PAS. This was late 98/early 99 and at the time I felt that the PAS cars were over assisted, with a tendency to follow the camber of the road with every pot-hole causing the steering twitch with the car promptly running off in any direction! (I exaggerate of course but that is what it felt like) The non-PAS cars simply didn't do this. Both my wife and I remarked on this so it wasn't unique to me. And as Denise (5'4" so not an Amazon!) tested both the Griff 500's and Chimaeras with and without PAS and preferred the non-PAS cars, don't believe all this about needing arms like "Arnie" to drive them.
Maybe it was because we were both used to driving my S3c but the Griffith actually felt lighter and easier to park than the S - so we were happy without PAS.
The only thing I can think is that the PAS cars have a quicker ratio rack (2.2 vs. 2.7 lock-to-lock) and this would of course concur with Steve’s thoughts about them being better on the track, not necessarily because of the PAS but because the quicker rack obviously makes catching the tail easier. Rich...
Let's not forget that most of us spend most, if not all, of our TVR-time on public roads, not race circuits. Therefore the benefit of PAS is principally in *parking*, not *trying to catch a slide*. (Personally I don't like to get into a situation on public roads where I have to catch slides anyway).
Remember too that the average TVR journey is spent *above* 10 mph, and each journey involves 10s or 100s of corners, but only one parking manoeuvre.
If I want 'effortless' driving I get into a 7-Series!
Remember too that the average TVR journey is spent *above* 10 mph, and each journey involves 10s or 100s of corners, but only one parking manoeuvre.
If I want 'effortless' driving I get into a 7-Series!
RichB said: I was trying not get drawn into this one but ah well why not?
After trying both PAS and non-PAS cars I chose to order my Griffith without PAS. This was late 98/early 99 and at the time I felt that the PAS cars were over assisted, with a tendency to follow the camber of the road with every pot-hole causing the steering twitch with the car promptly running off in any direction! (I exaggerate of course but that is what it felt like) The non-PAS cars simply didn't do this. Both my wife and I remarked on this so it wasn't unique to me. And as Denise (5'4" so not an Amazon!) tested both the Griff 500's and Chimaeras with and without PAS and preferred the non-PAS cars, don't believe all this about needing arms like "Arnie" to drive them.
Maybe it was because we were both used to driving my S3c but the Griffith actually felt lighter and easier to park than the S - so we were happy without PAS.
The only thing I can think is that the PAS cars have a quicker ratio rack (2.2 vs. 2.7 lock-to-lock) and this would of course concur with Steve’s thoughts about them being better on the track, not necessarily because of the PAS but because the quicker rack obviously makes catching the tail easier. Rich...
This is exactly what i was going to say , inc the height of my wife !!! actually 5'4 3/4 .
But i must ad that i disliked the power steering on my old SEACs and considered removing it, for the reasons mentioned above..
Tim
I seem to recall (or perhaps I just made it up) that Joolz wrote a long time ago that "if you want a fast Griffith get one without air and without power steering". OK may not be much in it but that extra pully must soak up some bhp, or is the amount so small that it does not really matter.
At the end of the day it all comes down to personal choice - I prefer my Griff straight and simple with no power steering and no air con.
On the other hand I believe that one of Simpo's RO colleagues retro fitted power at a very reasonable cost and that cars tend to sell more easily with power steering. Probably why more Chimaeras were sold than Griffs - most of the population are going soft
Mike
edited to add derogatory comment about my Chimeara owning ex-friends.
>> Edited by MikeG on Friday 29th November 13:53
At the end of the day it all comes down to personal choice - I prefer my Griff straight and simple with no power steering and no air con.
On the other hand I believe that one of Simpo's RO colleagues retro fitted power at a very reasonable cost and that cars tend to sell more easily with power steering. Probably why more Chimaeras were sold than Griffs - most of the population are going soft
Mike
edited to add derogatory comment about my Chimeara owning ex-friends.
>> Edited by MikeG on Friday 29th November 13:53
I've owned one with and one without....
I've never had any difficulty catching slides in either car, if anything I thought the feedback through non PAS was slightly better.
I also preferred the slightly heavier feel, it felt less skitish on back roads.
PAS obviously makes parking and low speed manoeuvres easier but I wouldn't say it was worth taking an inferior car with PAS over better example without.
Cheers
DC
Edited since I found out how to spell
>> Edited by dai capp on Friday 29th November 16:51
I've never had any difficulty catching slides in either car, if anything I thought the feedback through non PAS was slightly better.
I also preferred the slightly heavier feel, it felt less skitish on back roads.
PAS obviously makes parking and low speed manoeuvres easier but I wouldn't say it was worth taking an inferior car with PAS over better example without.
Cheers
DC
Edited since I found out how to spell
>> Edited by dai capp on Friday 29th November 16:51
Pete's point about the V8S is interesting as that does have a light steering but that is probably due to the narrower tyres and geometry etc etc.
Well I don't know what all you purists are going to do as TVR no longer makes cars that do not have PAS. It has been standard on cars since the Cerbera. I also belive that virtually all the Tuscan racers use PAS. Again it comes back to reducing the effort and improving the response. It also gives you the option of increasing tyre width to tune the handling without incresaing the load on those arms.
I did toy with fitting a quick rak to the 520 but when I looked at the amount of correction I was applying etc, it was the speed that seemed to be important and so I kepted the PAS. Not as good as the TVR system but a lot easiser than non PAS system.
The feedback issue is also made more complicated due to the fact that tired muscles are worse for supplying feedback that fresh ones.
It is a personal choice but I stil say that the PAS option should not be dismissed and for me it is something I would say is very high up there along with a minimum of 5 litres....
Steve
Well I don't know what all you purists are going to do as TVR no longer makes cars that do not have PAS. It has been standard on cars since the Cerbera. I also belive that virtually all the Tuscan racers use PAS. Again it comes back to reducing the effort and improving the response. It also gives you the option of increasing tyre width to tune the handling without incresaing the load on those arms.
I did toy with fitting a quick rak to the 520 but when I looked at the amount of correction I was applying etc, it was the speed that seemed to be important and so I kepted the PAS. Not as good as the TVR system but a lot easiser than non PAS system.
The feedback issue is also made more complicated due to the fact that tired muscles are worse for supplying feedback that fresh ones.
It is a personal choice but I stil say that the PAS option should not be dismissed and for me it is something I would say is very high up there along with a minimum of 5 litres....
Steve
I guess the latest power racks are much better, my experiences are from Wedges early Griffs & early Tuscan racers all of which seemed to do without, even Tuscans with 18x9 front rims ! I guess in the 21st century any "serious" new car without power steering would seem out of date.
Tim
Tim
2 sheds said: I guess the latest power racks are much better, my experiences are from Wedges early Griffs & early Tuscan racers all of which seemed to do without, even Tuscans with 18x9 front rims ! I guess in the 21st century any "serious" new car without power steering would seem out of date.
Tim
The Topcats Tuscan Racer I drove was non-PAS with a quick rack and 9" slicks - a bit heavy to turn round in the paddock but not a problem onec it was moving. Brian (Topcats) told me that quite a few Tuscan racers still prefer the early non-PAS racks, rather than the 'latest and greatest' PAS racks. He also mentioned that there was a big difference in feedback between different types of rack (even ones with the same nominal ratio) and the early Tuscan Racer racks were considered better than the later ones. Personally I can't say I've ever noticed this but apparently the racers did. My guess is this is caused by using a different tooth angle in the pinion.
I suspect the move towards PAS is at least partly driven by the increasing use of PAS and lighter steering and brakes on production cars. People get used to lighter controls and find it harder to adapt to cars with heavier controls. As far as I know, the S front geometry and steering is just the same as the other non-PAS TVRs and I would expect them all to feel simimlar. Has anyone with a non-PAS TVR ever found the steering heavy when driving at speed?
Cheers,
Peter Humphries (and a green V8S)
PS obviously the answer is more power to transfer more weight off the front wheels.
The only problem where I really noticed the difference was at Mallory when I was hot lapping owner's cars for them. The long Gerrards corner was where I noticed it most. After driving 4 or 5 non-PAS cars one after another, my shoulders, arms and wrists ached and I did find it difficult to hold the car in the required slide. The rest of the circuit was fine. Get in a PAS car and it was easier and I noticed that I was also a few MPH faster because I could put it on the edge.
That experience really changed my whole view on PAS.
I've spoken with several of the Tuscan and Cerbera GT drivers and they basically said that they preferred PAS for this reason. Colin Blower was in raptures about it especially as he drove the pump using hydraulic pressure from the diff. Didn't help in the paddock though.
Steve
That experience really changed my whole view on PAS.
I've spoken with several of the Tuscan and Cerbera GT drivers and they basically said that they preferred PAS for this reason. Colin Blower was in raptures about it especially as he drove the pump using hydraulic pressure from the diff. Didn't help in the paddock though.
Steve
...if they consider PAS is worth having, it probably is! 
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