How many tvr griffiths were made ?

How many tvr griffiths were made ?

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V8 GRF

7,276 posts

145 months

Wednesday 18th February 2009
quotequote all
I've asked Fester for the excel sheets and I asked the same question. If they're based on registrations then they'll probaly be more accurate for cars that made it to the road than TVRs figures but the years of manufacture might not tally due to cars sitting around unregistered.

culminator

555 posts

144 months

Wednesday 18th February 2009
quotequote all
For what it's worth, the SMMT normally only report on vehicles actually registered.

Uncle Fester

3,114 posts

143 months

Wednesday 18th February 2009
quotequote all
Well, I have had another email.

V8GRF YHM X2 You should now have three spreadsheets in total.

In the meantime, the formating aces can take a look at this lot.

This latest spreadsheet came with the following message.

The data is sourced directly from the manufacturer on a monthly basis. Please note that the data is provided to the SMMT on an exchange basis. We turn the data into a monthly production report which is then sent to all the contributing manufacturers. Please do not uses the data for any commercial activity.



SOURCE ACTIVITY MANF MODEL D/P CC FUEL 01 QTY 02 QTY 03 QTY 04 QTY 05 QTY 06 QTY 07 QTY 08 QTY 09 QTY 10 QTY 11 QTY 12 QTY TOTAL
1991 UK P TVR 400 SE 2DR 3947 P 8 8 8 8 4 3 2 2 1 44
1991 UK P TVR S 2DR 2933 P 52 52 62 52 56 72 58 9 12 12 20 10 467
1991 UK P TVR V8 S 2DR 3947 P 39 47 47 40 35 208

1992 UK P TVR Griffith 2DR 4997 P 10 35 60 48 52 65 52 52 56 56 60 56 602
1992 UK P TVR S 2DR 2933 P 5 5 5 4 4 5 5 2 2 4 3 5 49
1992 UK P TVR V8 S 2DR 3947 P 30 15 25 16 16 20 15 7 10 8 8 3 173

1993 UK P TVR Chimaera 2DR 4997 P 40 60 56 60 62 50 33 40 33 50 42 526
1993 UK P TVR Griffith 2DR 4997 P 53 10 8 5 11 15 10 2 4 33 18 169
1993 UK P TVR Griffith 500 2DR 4997 P 6 18 25 12 61
1993 UK P TVR S4C 2DR 2933 P 7 8 6 2 6 5 2 36
1993 UK P TVR V8 S 2DR 3947 P 4 6 4 5 5 3 1 1 2 4 35

1994 UK P TVR Chimaera 2DR 4997 P 37 43 49 28 44 51 46 30 57 35 52 47 519
1994 UK P TVR Griffith 2DR 4997 P 25 22 30 23 25 36 24 20 11 16 36 24 292
1994 UK P TVR S4C 2DR 2933 P 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 3 1 1 14
1994 UK P TVR V8 S 2DR 3947 P 1 5 1 2 2 1 3 2 1 1 1 20

1995 UK P TVR Cerbera 2DR 4185 P 9 9
1995 UK P TVR Chimaera 2DR 4997 P 50 56 70 40 52 72 60 44 56 48 85 74 707
1995 UK P TVR Griffith 2DR 4997 P 20 18 20 18 28 30 24 20 36 21 31 18 284

1996 UK P TVR Cerbera 2DR 4185 P 5 8 12 12 15 20 23 15 25 26 28 24 213
1996 UK P TVR Chimaera 2DR 4997 P 80 75 70 50 82 70 86 51 72 76 75 57 844
1996 UK P TVR Griffith 2DR 4997 P 32 18 18 18 34 27 33 19 27 26 18 18 288

1997 UK P TVR Cerbera 2DR 4185 P 40 40 38 40 42 40 50 18 40 30 28 35 441
1997 UK P TVR Chimaera 2DR 4997 P 73 74 73 77 77 79 93 36 75 60 93 63 873
1997 UK P TVR Griffith 2DR 4997 P 24 22 22 19 22 17 27 10 21 13 15 20 232

AntonyJ

5,244 posts

216 months

Wednesday 18th February 2009
quotequote all
Can't see where mine would have been in there, a '92 400, but then again it doesn't actually say "Griffith" on the V5!

Uncle Fester

3,114 posts

143 months

Wednesday 18th February 2009
quotequote all
Right, looking at the sheets, I think there is an error. The engine CC is listed as 4997 for all Griff’s.

However, 1992/3 lists Griffith and Griffith 500 separately. 1994 onwards, they list only Griffith. I assume that all 1992/3 Griffiths, (except Griffith 500’s) are the precats, and that all Griffiths 1994 on are 500’s.

That gives us a total of 771 precats and 1811 500 Griff’s, (assuming I can add and drink at the same time).

Remember, this figure is UK registrations only. Channel Islands, Isle of Mann and exports to the rest of the world aren’t included. I also seem to recall that reading that Irish registrations (North or South) aren’t included either.

Now, anyone got any bright ideas where I could lay my hands on the export details?

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Barreti

6,535 posts

172 months

Wednesday 18th February 2009
quotequote all
Let me try this.

Year UK P MANF MODEL D/P CC FUEL 01Q 02Q 03Q 04Q 05Q 06Q 07Q 08Q 09Q 10Q 11Q 12Q TTL
1991 UK P TVR 400SE 2DR 3947 P 8 8 8 8 4 3 2 2 1 44
1991 UK P TVR S 2DR 2933 P 52 52 62 52 56 72 58 9 12 12 20 10 467
1991 UK P TVR V8S 2DR 3947 P 39 47 47 40 35 208
1992 UK P TVR Griffith 2DR 4997 P 10 35 60 48 52 65 52 52 56 56 60 56 602
1992 UK P TVR S 2DR 2933 P 5 5 5 4 4 5 5 2 2 4 3 5 49
1992 UK P TVR V8S 2DR 3947 P 30 15 25 16 16 20 15 7 10 8 8 3 173
1993 UK P TVR Chimaera 2DR 4997 P 40 60 56 60 62 50 33 40 33 50 42 526
1993 UK P TVR Griffith 2DR 4997 P 53 10 8 5 11 15 10 2 4 33 18 169
1993 UK P TVR Griffith500 2DR 4997 P 6 18 25 12 61
1993 UK P TVR S4C 2DR 2933 P 7 8 6 2 6 5 2 36
1993 UK P TVR V8S 2DR 3947 P 4 6 4 5 5 3 1 1 2 4 35
1994 UK P TVR Chimaera 2DR 4997 P 37 43 49 28 44 51 46 30 57 35 52 47 519
1994 UK P TVR Griffith 2DR 4997 P 25 22 30 23 25 36 24 20 11 16 36 24 292
1994 UK P TVR S4C 2DR 2933 P 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 3 1 1 14
1994 UK P TVR V8S 2DR 3947 P 1 5 1 2 2 1 3 2 1 1 1 20
1995 UK P TVR Cerbera 2DR 4185 P 9 9
1995 UK P TVR Chimaera 2DR 4997 P 50 56 70 40 52 72 60 44 56 48 85 74 707
1995 UK P TVR Griffith 2DR 4997 P 20 18 20 18 28 30 24 20 36 21 31 18 284
1996 UK P TVR Cerbera 2DR 4185 P 5 8 12 12 15 20 23 15 25 26 28 24 213
1996 UK P TVR Chimaera 2DR 4997 P 80 75 70 50 82 70 86 51 72 76 75 57 844
1996 UK P TVR Griffith 2DR 4997 P 32 18 18 18 34 27 33 19 27 26 18 18 288
1997 UK P TVR Cerbera 2DR 4185 P 40 40 38 40 42 40 50 18 40 30 28 35 441
1997 UK P TVR Chimaera 2DR 4997 P 73 74 73 77 77 79 93 36 75 60 93 63 873
1997 UK P TVR Griffith 2DR 4997 P 24 22 22 19 22 17 27 10 21 13 15 20 232



Looks OK but I can't quite see where the numbers should fit for the ones not aligned.

Edited by Barreti on Wednesday 18th February 23:41

V8 GRF

7,276 posts

145 months

Thursday 19th February 2009
quotequote all
Thanks for the Excel sheets Fester

Again as I've suggested before these figures need to be viewed with caution.
The figure of 2521 Griffith is the highest I've seen, thereabouts but not a figure I've seen before.

I noticed the figure of Sagaris registrations seemed to be double of anything I've heard so went across to the Sagaris forums for a look and this thread is running there Sagaris Numbers which disputes the figure.

A suggestion there is that the changing of number plates confuses things?

Edited by V8 GRF on Thursday 19th February 17:48

3024E

483 posts

120 months

Friday 20th February 2009
quotequote all
AntonyJ said:
Can't see where mine would have been in there, a '92 400, but then again it doesn't actually say "Griffith" on the V5!
ANTONY.................

I also like you have an early 92 4.0 factory 250bhp model my v5 log book ALSO says TVR 'sports' not griffith, how starnge?????

Andy

glow worm

4,215 posts

162 months

Monday 16th March 2009
quotequote all
Uncle Fester said:
So, I emailed The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders.

A big thank you to Mark Sopher, who is their Production and Export Data Coordinator.

Please note that this data is the copyright property of the SMMT. They have given it on the condition that it is for non-commercial use only.

If you wish to use it commercialy, please contact them before use.

I have emailed him back and asked if he can supply earlier data.

He sent me a couple of Excel spreadsheets. If anyone wants copies, drop me a line. If anyone is better at formating posts, please feel free to make this more readable.

TVR Production

1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007
Cerbera 441 372 271 168 102 72 87 61 4 0 0
Chimaera 873 1085 998 373 102 72 4 0 0 0 0
Sagaris 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 3 235 107 0
Griffith 232 231 187 90 82 64 0 0 0 0 0
T350 0 0 0 0 0 10 403 454 140 8 0
Tamora 0 0 0 0 24 217 108 141 79 9 0
Tuscan 0 0 4 686 626 375 267 201 254 182 0
Typhon 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
Total 1546 1688 1460 1317 936 810 871 860 712 306 0






TVR PRODUCTION JAN FEB MAR APR MAY JUN JUL AUG SEP OCT NOV DEC TOTAL
2006 PRODUCTION TVR 60 66 41 25 27 28 20 19 20 0 0 0 306
2005 PRODUCTION TVR 72 74 58 62 66 68 74 38 61 45 48 46 712
2004 PRODUCTION TVR 72 84 82 68 69 70 52 88 79 67 76 53 860
2003 PRODUCTION TVR 80 84 82 60 84 82 85 40 84 73 67 50 871
2002 PRODUCTION TVR 80 80 78 91 95 60 60 38 80 55 55 38 810
2001 PRODUCTION TVR 80 80 82 61 100 102 88 55 74 74 82 58 936

TVR EXPORT JAN FEB MAR APR MAY JUN JUL AUG SEP OCT NOV DEC TOTAL
2006 EXPORT ALLOCATION TVR 6 5 4 2 6 5 5 3 4 0 0 0 40
2005 EXPORT ALLOCATION TVR 9 7 3 6 5 5 5 5 6 3 4 6 64
2004 EXPORT ALLOCATION TVR 7 11 8 7 8 10 5 10 2 5 2 5 80
2003 EXPORT ALLOCATION TVR 7 9 10 6 8 8 8 4 8 7 13 7 95
2002 EXPORT ALLOCATION TVR 8 7 12 11 10 9 5 5 8 7 7 6 95
2001 EXPORT ALLOCATION TVR 6 4 4 5 5 5 6 5 5 6 8 10 69


Edited by Uncle Fester on Wednesday 18th February 14:38
Sorry but those figures are way out, certainly with regard to new models... no where near 1000 T350s (more like 400) , no way 350 Sags and the last TVR build number I've seen for 2006 is about 0086 (not 306).

Uncle Fester

3,114 posts

143 months

Monday 16th March 2009
quotequote all
glow worm said:
Sorry but those figures are way out, certainly with regard to new models... no where near 1000 T350s (more like 400) , no way 350 Sags and the last TVR build number I've seen for 2006 is about 0086 (not 306).
Those figures are the numbers supplied by the TVR factory to the Society of Motor Manufactures and Traders. They are therefore perhaps the only set of figures available with any ‘official’ credentials since the demise of the factory.

I just cut and pasted the spreadsheets that the SMMT sent me. Anyone wanting copies of the spreadsheets please email me through my profile.

Without pointing any accusations at anyone connected to TVR, it wouldn’t be the first time that a small motor manufacturer had irregularities in the production figures.

Following the death of Colin Chapman, paperwork was discovered that he had previously kept restricted to himself. Nobody else had been allowed to work on it, or even see it.

It suggested that the same chassis number had been issued multiple times. A car destined for the UK market would have the same chassis number as one destined for export. In a few cases, the same chassis number had been used for multiple cars, each one sent to different continents.

In the unlikely event that a car was subsequently re-imported and two cars were found to have the same chassis number, it would be presumed that one must be a stolen car that had been ringed.

The profit from (and the tax that should have been paid upon) the extra clone cars had been concealed, mostly in Colin’s trouser pocket.

One of the key differences here is that Lotus had a flourishing export market. My understanding is that most TVR production was sold on the domestic market.

Without inferring any wrong doing by anyone, I could speculate upon periods in the history of TVR that would have benefitted someone if the figures were ‘manipulated’. The Lotus case tells us that it only needs one person to do this. Other individuals associated with the company might easily have been ignorant of any wrong doing.

In the good times, an artificially low production number would have allowed the retention of some money for someone.

At times when the company was for sale, or an owner was thinking about selling, then it might benefit if the numbers were inflated.

If one was going to place a company into bankruptcy, then who knows what might be cooked up.

The numbers clearly were sent in at odd times. The fact that even Precat Griff’s are listed as all being 4997CC would suggest that the data was submitted retrospectively.

If there ever were any shenanigans with TVR chassis numbers then looking at them won’t help us.

The only way that I can see forward is to get the data from the DVLA, which will cost us a couple of hundred quid. The amount of interest in this seems high. Some of the people on here are TVRCC officers. Perhaps they should put it forward to the committee to buy this information and settle it, once and for all. It won’t tell us the original production, only current registrations.

But I cannot see how production could be any less than the number currently registered.

spend

12,581 posts

186 months

Monday 16th March 2009
quotequote all
Didn't TVR 'account' on chassis' produced which might be significantly different from cars completed? Still funny accounting ~ but thats why businesses employ bean counters I suppose hehe

Uncle Fester

3,114 posts

143 months

Monday 16th March 2009
quotequote all
I had to wonder if all the chassis numbers being lumped together it might obscure the details to some financial advantage.

Obviously the models sold at different prices. The figures say they sold fewer expensive models than cheaper ones. That’s likely to be true, but if it were impossible to distinguish them in the accounts then the customer may have paid for and received a Cerbera.

If the accounts were to confuse that with a Chimera that the books said had been built, then someone might have a little extra pocket money left over.

Then again, if you are the kind of prestidigitator who can run an entire Russian bank while all its investor’s money vanishes, yet still be more non stick than Teflon, you must be quite a ‘creative’ accountant.

I’m not suggesting that anyone has done anything wrong. Just that there seems to be so much smoke surrounding the production numbers that sometimes it’s hard to even see the mirrors.

spend said:
funny accounting ~ but thats why businesses employ bean counters I suppose hehe
Any (purely hypothetical) insights into what went on here. I just wonder how close a match the ‘funny way’ TVR accounts were done, to the way professional bean counter might do it, if he were trying to hide something.

spend

12,581 posts

186 months

Monday 16th March 2009
quotequote all
I wasn't hinting at any financial jiggery-pokery Fester, but targets for regulatory approvals.. I think you meet different testing requirements based on model numbers?

even though I still only trust Turf Accountants - never met a dishonest bookie hehe

V8 GRF

7,276 posts

145 months

Monday 16th March 2009
quotequote all
Uncle Fester said:
If the accounts were to confuse that with a Chimera that the books said had been built, then someone might have a little extra pocket money left over.

Then again, if you are the kind of prestidigitator who can run an entire Russian bank while all its investor’s money vanishes, yet still be more non stick than Teflon, you must be quite a ‘creative’ accountant.

I’m not suggesting that anyone has done anything wrong. Just that there seems to be so much smoke surrounding the production numbers that sometimes it’s hard to even see the mirrors.
Any 'playing ' with chassis numbers on Griffs, Chims and Cerbs was all done in PW's time and nothing to do with NS.

spend

12,581 posts

186 months

Monday 16th March 2009
quotequote all
V8 GRF said:
Any 'playing ' with chassis numbers on Griffs, Chims and Cerbs was all done in PW's time and nothing to do with NS.
NED Rules OK!

Uncle Fester

3,114 posts

143 months

Monday 16th March 2009
quotequote all
spend said:
V8 GRF said:
Any 'playing ' with chassis numbers on Griffs, Chims and Cerbs was all done in PW's time and nothing to do with NS.
NED Rules OK!
Glow worm was questioning the figures for later cars.

Just because Ned may have shredded the accounts paperwork in earlier times, doesn’t preclude manipulation in later times. The motivation may have been different. The game plan in the NS days has always been the subject of much debate.

I hadn’t thought about the approval regulations as a motivation for ‘careless’ accounting. That could be a real can of worms. Best we don’t go there.

V8 GRF

7,276 posts

145 months

Monday 16th March 2009
quotequote all
I'd conjecture that the reasons for 'vagueness' in both regimes were for similar purposes... but like you say can of worms and exactly that 'conjecture'.

getmecoat

Warbbby

109 posts

136 months

Monday 16th March 2009
quotequote all
Just checked my log book, April 92 4.3, and there is again no mention of it being a Griffith. If all TVRs of that era are listed as Sports then the info from the DVLA would be of limited use.

Mark

spend

12,581 posts

186 months

Monday 16th March 2009
quotequote all
Its kinda like that weirdness where a lot of the engines (is 4.2 pistons the common factor?) all have 4.3 engine numbers, ie nearly all 500's as well as the 430's I believe?

Makes it all more fun really, like someone has left us a Chinese puzzle nutsrofl

dhf

1,103 posts

129 months

Tuesday 17th March 2009
quotequote all
Now, anyone got any bright ideas where I could lay my hands on the export details?

[/quote]

Uncle Fester.The details for NI can be found through
Vehicle Registrations
County Hall
Coleraine
02890233821

For the Republic of Ireland
The Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Registration Section
Central vehicle Office
Rosslaire Harbour
Co.Wexford
00353(0)539161200

Fill the coffee pot for the call to the ROI Veh.Reg. office you could be a while but to the best of my knowledge very few TVr's were imported new to ROI,in fact i know of only 1 a 1992 gold Griff but ask Jerry at the club who will know more.the majority will have started life with a UK plate.
NI will be different,being the same price as the Uk and the fact that there was a dealer(s) in NI.there should be a good few new registrations there.

hope that helps



Edited by dhf on Wednesday 18th March 09:23