Bring on a separate new Mini forum??
Discussion
miniman said:
I have been up to my knuckes fixing the thing on many occassions.
To me, one of the big attractions is, that I can.
And to me, one of the big attractions is I don't need to. "Problem with the car sir?" "Please take this 325i until we've sorted it, and by the way it'll be clean when you get it back"
trackdemon said:
And to me, one of the big attractions is I don't need to. "Problem with the car sir?" "Please take this 325i until we've sorted it, and by the way it'll be clean when you get it back"
I don't think anyone would argue that a Mini is suitable for day-to-day, high mileage work. Might be mechanically suitable, but certainly not comfortable enough IMHO. I have the A4 for daily driver and business use, an MX-5 for a reliable weekend car and a Dolomite Sprint for track days and suchlike. I couldn't justify a 3rd "new" car, but I would certainly consider a Cooper S Works if I could. Couldn't run one as a daily driver - just not big enough for all the crap I carry around (like A-Series engines
)
What are you lot going on about there is ONLY one Mini it was designed in the 1950's and released to the public in 1959, a great car, never designed to be the car it was, ie great competitive machine and fun to drive.
There is also a BMW small car using a name that was hijacked by buying and selling British car companies that no one was interested in, and holding onto a brand name worth a fortune in marketing. The BMW mini? is a fantastic small car (I have driven the supercharged version), but its not a mini its a small car with a badge on it that was hijacked.
No comparison they are different cars one is a Mini the other is a ? (stolen identity?)
There is also a BMW small car using a name that was hijacked by buying and selling British car companies that no one was interested in, and holding onto a brand name worth a fortune in marketing. The BMW mini? is a fantastic small car (I have driven the supercharged version), but its not a mini its a small car with a badge on it that was hijacked.
No comparison they are different cars one is a Mini the other is a ? (stolen identity?)
Out of the four pages on this thread the above has to be the most sensible answer. I think selby has hit the nail on the head, and no one can really argue with it so can we start a different thread now??
Lets agree to disagree
And open seperate forums for mini and MINI to avoid further aggrevation.
The other option would be to get kitted up and have the mother of all paintball fights??
Bit like a MINI adventure!!
Lets agree to disagree
And open seperate forums for mini and MINI to avoid further aggrevation.
The other option would be to get kitted up and have the mother of all paintball fights??
Bit like a MINI adventure!!
love machine said:
trackdemon said:
love machine said:
I would like to compare the two in a race. Anyone fancy putting there money where their mouth is at say Prescott?
Presumably you'd compare std spec vs std spec?Lets do another round at - say - Bedford autodrome?
I would rather do it on the tarmac and gravel roads on the Eppynt Ranges in mid-Wales! Now, that would be interesting and a proper test.
My point was that despite the mini being a shite car, from A to B on the twisties, there is one obvious winner. The physics is all wrong with the BINI, if you put the engine in the back, it might be OK, but that much power through a heavy front wheel drive car doesn't work. You just cant get the power down out of corners (properly). It's the same with the Golf GTI VR6, etc, as a track car they probably rule and as a circuit car the BINI will be streets ahead, without a doubt. But track racing is pretty naff really from a man and machine point of view. I would rather drink a cup of coffee in a BINI and race around Goodwood but for tight twisties, there is one car for the job.
For hillclimb and rally stages as well as sprint tracks, a decent old mini will whip ass. You only have to watch your local motorsport to see how they still rule. They shouldn't agreed, but it is a testament to the design. I suppose from a modern day motoring point of view, picking the kids up from school, etc, it is the better car by far BUT from a motorsport/performance point of view, the thing is badly laid out and that's a fact.
First of all I haven't said the mini is a shite car, mainly because it isn't - anything as fun to drive is intrinsically worthy imho. I'm afraid that if you were to try and hack across a typical british B road with the same gusto I can in the Cooper S you'd soon be for the scenery, without SERIOUSLY modifying a mini (at which point does it cease to be a mini I wonder?) you'd be short of traction, wheel control, power and composure by comparison.
To state that "the physics is all wrong" is a bit foolhardy I'm afraid - physically the MINI has much the same layout as a mini (and just about every other small hatch out there) just bigger and with less % weight over the front end so if anything it'll be less prone to understeer. "Can't get the power down out of corners?" Well as you admit yourself, you haven't driven a MINI so I can't figure how you'd be able to make such a judgement so I'll enlighten you myself having actually driven a MINI Cooper S over B roads, A roads, trackdays etc: Traction is not a problem on the road, even in the wet; but on track it can sometimes be found wanting when powering out of a slow corner with the outside wheel loaded - this is best modulated with a little left foot braking.
Its not the same as a Golf VR6, a car which for a start is at least a generation older as well as being softer and more "GT" than "sports" so, again, an invalid comparison. Track racing pretty naff from man & Machine PoV? Tell that to the multitude of PHers who race regularly. Tell that to Mr M. Schumacher, Hakkinen, Herbert, Bennett, Minassien, Lesley, etc, etc.
Funnily enough, I thought hillclimbs were ruled by things like pilbeams, radicals, caterfields and the like?
I'd really like you to be a little more specific about in which way the MINI is badly laid out from a motorsport/performance PoV? You state this as being FACT, so presumably you know something I (we?) don't. From my perspective I can see that the MINI has sophisticated suspension allowing superb wheel control over a wide range of travel, it has a low CoG, is proportionally well suited to performance with its tight dimensions, long wheelbase and wide track. In addition it has a highly tuneable supercharged engine, a 6 speed gearbox, & can run the large wheels necessary for ultimate performance (as well as allowing space for heavy duty brakes).
Of course, all the below is my personal opion.
I am only commenting on my experience of seeing a guy run a Cooper S in the SW hillclimb championship. It would unweight the front wheels which would then spin hopelessly, as well as 3 wheeling, which isn't a bad thing. The VW golf GTI Mk1 is the same, it is too big for front wheel drive. Sure, if you can keep the front wheels stuck, that's great. The JC Works Challenge up Wiscombe hill was less than impressive as well. I'm sure that they wold be more impressive on a fast track where they get to retain traction adequately.
The Bini in all its forms is quite a large car, it obviously weighs in a bit more than a proper mini, my point being that if it is not to understeer like a beast, they have to increase the rear roll stiffness (decrease rear grip) hence lots of negative camber on the rear to balance it up? Assuming that the weight is better distributed (as a nose heavy car is a bad thing, unless it weighs virtually nothing like a proper mini) so with more weight on the rear, this would also dictate more rear negative camber, which I have observed. (All this is observation as I am assuming Bini owners leave their geometry alone, and in the case of the front, pretty much have to [McPherson struts]. The problem with this excess weight in any form is that it will transfer during accelleration a la FWD car, on cornering on a hill, this results in your front wheel becoming unstuck and spinning. So, it goes through corners slower than a RWD counterpart and slower than smaller FWD counterparts. Of course, if you fit a LSD, you make the steering a nightmare and generally sod your lock up if you are running a decent pre-load. Of course, you can fit super sticky tyres to counteract this (Sticky tyres on crap cars were the death of the mini in circuit racing, as they made all cars handle like minis-to an extent of not winning on most tracks). As big spokey dokey wheels generally don't aid tyres heating up properly, for the weight of the mini, they are merely bling.
As a suspension fettler and tuning fanatic, I could probably do immense calculations and modify a Bini to handle as well as it could (on the track) BUT as a FWD car, fundamentally as a track racer, even if you have a 400hp engine, you will just wheelspin more. Sure, it's good but no cigar. I (and most other people) would choose a different car for track racing, allthough I expect it would compare well with other overweight FWD cars, none of which have any credibility or integrity on the track.
I'm just standing by my logic at the moment and the premise that if I was given an mini as well as a Cooper S Shazzam deluxe, to fettle for a given course to the nth degree, the smaller mini would get a quicker time! I'm absolutely convinced 
anyway, no hard feelings eh?
I am only commenting on my experience of seeing a guy run a Cooper S in the SW hillclimb championship. It would unweight the front wheels which would then spin hopelessly, as well as 3 wheeling, which isn't a bad thing. The VW golf GTI Mk1 is the same, it is too big for front wheel drive. Sure, if you can keep the front wheels stuck, that's great. The JC Works Challenge up Wiscombe hill was less than impressive as well. I'm sure that they wold be more impressive on a fast track where they get to retain traction adequately.
The Bini in all its forms is quite a large car, it obviously weighs in a bit more than a proper mini, my point being that if it is not to understeer like a beast, they have to increase the rear roll stiffness (decrease rear grip) hence lots of negative camber on the rear to balance it up? Assuming that the weight is better distributed (as a nose heavy car is a bad thing, unless it weighs virtually nothing like a proper mini) so with more weight on the rear, this would also dictate more rear negative camber, which I have observed. (All this is observation as I am assuming Bini owners leave their geometry alone, and in the case of the front, pretty much have to [McPherson struts]. The problem with this excess weight in any form is that it will transfer during accelleration a la FWD car, on cornering on a hill, this results in your front wheel becoming unstuck and spinning. So, it goes through corners slower than a RWD counterpart and slower than smaller FWD counterparts. Of course, if you fit a LSD, you make the steering a nightmare and generally sod your lock up if you are running a decent pre-load. Of course, you can fit super sticky tyres to counteract this (Sticky tyres on crap cars were the death of the mini in circuit racing, as they made all cars handle like minis-to an extent of not winning on most tracks). As big spokey dokey wheels generally don't aid tyres heating up properly, for the weight of the mini, they are merely bling.
As a suspension fettler and tuning fanatic, I could probably do immense calculations and modify a Bini to handle as well as it could (on the track) BUT as a FWD car, fundamentally as a track racer, even if you have a 400hp engine, you will just wheelspin more. Sure, it's good but no cigar. I (and most other people) would choose a different car for track racing, allthough I expect it would compare well with other overweight FWD cars, none of which have any credibility or integrity on the track.
I'm just standing by my logic at the moment and the premise that if I was given an mini as well as a Cooper S Shazzam deluxe, to fettle for a given course to the nth degree, the smaller mini would get a quicker time! I'm absolutely convinced
anyway, no hard feelings eh? Have to say I can't help but notice how your arguement has veered somewhat away from pure "MINI is crap / slow / boring" to essentially "mini is faster than MINI up a hillclimb" - not that I was ever comparing the two in this way (or, for that matter, any way at all). This apparently decided on your "experience" of "seeing a guy run one in the SW hillclimb championship". So again not your own direct driving experience. This is backed up by statements of how much wheelspin the car was suffering etc. - I'm afraid that to sit there wheels spinning implies poor driving to me; as I mentioned I've experienced wheelspin exiting tight corners on track, and this is easily moderated with a little left foot braking.
How is a nose heavy car "OK" if it weighs nothing like the mini? I'd counter suggest that the weight in the nose of the mini is more significant as it represents a higher proportion of the cars overall weight and therefore (and as I've personally experienced) can lead to plough on understeer in extreme scenarios unless you tune this out of the car. The MINI does not understeer heavily "out of the box". The front of the MINI is slightly softer than the rear to aid turn in and traction, a not uncommon trick in tuned FWD cars as I'm sure your well aware - shame it's not really possible to fine tune a mini without chucking away most of the suspension components you start with.
Of course with the MINI weighing 500kg(ish) more than a mini it naturally suffers more weight transfer so it physically cannot turn in or respond at the same rate as a mini, but this has to balanced against the other factors I've already mentioned. It seems to me that you're case for the mini having superior traction is because it weighs less and has more weight over the front. I had no problem inducing wheelspin in the 1.3/1.0 concoction I owned a few years back - those tiny little wheels will always be problematic in terms of transferring power to the road.
"Of course, if you fit an LSD you make the steering a nightmare etc..." I guess you haven't driven a Focus RS? Superb traction, enjoyable steering. There are companies working at this moment on active FWD LSDs for the road which will counter this.
"As big spokey dokey wheels generally don't aid tyres heating up properly, for the weight of the mini, they are merely bling." Slightly hackneyed viewpoint there. Ever wondered why junior WRC cars run huge wheels? A road rally stage is not disimilar to a hillclimb, ergo
(Using FWD) "even if you have a 400hp engine, you will just wheelspin more". NSS. Point being? mini would be better in what way?
How is a nose heavy car "OK" if it weighs nothing like the mini? I'd counter suggest that the weight in the nose of the mini is more significant as it represents a higher proportion of the cars overall weight and therefore (and as I've personally experienced) can lead to plough on understeer in extreme scenarios unless you tune this out of the car. The MINI does not understeer heavily "out of the box". The front of the MINI is slightly softer than the rear to aid turn in and traction, a not uncommon trick in tuned FWD cars as I'm sure your well aware - shame it's not really possible to fine tune a mini without chucking away most of the suspension components you start with.
Of course with the MINI weighing 500kg(ish) more than a mini it naturally suffers more weight transfer so it physically cannot turn in or respond at the same rate as a mini, but this has to balanced against the other factors I've already mentioned. It seems to me that you're case for the mini having superior traction is because it weighs less and has more weight over the front. I had no problem inducing wheelspin in the 1.3/1.0 concoction I owned a few years back - those tiny little wheels will always be problematic in terms of transferring power to the road.
"Of course, if you fit an LSD you make the steering a nightmare etc..." I guess you haven't driven a Focus RS? Superb traction, enjoyable steering. There are companies working at this moment on active FWD LSDs for the road which will counter this.
"As big spokey dokey wheels generally don't aid tyres heating up properly, for the weight of the mini, they are merely bling." Slightly hackneyed viewpoint there. Ever wondered why junior WRC cars run huge wheels? A road rally stage is not disimilar to a hillclimb, ergo
(Using FWD) "even if you have a 400hp engine, you will just wheelspin more". NSS. Point being? mini would be better in what way?
As a complete outsider I would like to point out that this thread would have died ages ago if trackdemon hadn't been biting at everything anyone said against the MINI. (no offence meant)
Come on guys, we've all had our say and to be honest we all disagree so WHO CARES ANYMORE. Can't we just come together in one big hippy style, love thy neighbour type bonfire in a field experience? Life's too short to argue.
Mini lovers hate the fact that BMW stole their baby (as a general rule of thumb)
And MINI lovers don't like being tied to the older version..............and are about 43% more poofy too!!
Come on guys, we've all had our say and to be honest we all disagree so WHO CARES ANYMORE. Can't we just come together in one big hippy style, love thy neighbour type bonfire in a field experience? Life's too short to argue.
Mini lovers hate the fact that BMW stole their baby (as a general rule of thumb)
And MINI lovers don't like being tied to the older version..............and are about 43% more poofy too!!
kleaky88 said:
.....and are about 43% more poofy too!!
I have a BMW MINI Cooper S WORKS.
And I am most certainly NOT more poofy than you sir.
Your car has ickle ickle likkle wheels. Like those on a pram.
And if you don't agree you can beat me with your handbag with your ickle ickle car keys in it.
No, on second thoughts, you car will probably fit in a handbag, so put you car inside and try beating me with that.
So there !
I have just bought a BMW MINI Cooper S Works it is 210bhp and puts the power down great.
In the past I have had 52 other cars the likes of 1966 Cooper 998, a 1972 mini with 1300GT conversion these where both subjected to many Vizard tuning mods.
Others to list HSR Chevete, Manta GTE, MkI Astra GTE, MkII Golf GTi, MkII Golf GTi 16v, Golf R32, Cooper S Mini and finally a Works Cooper S.
All I can say is the new BMW Mini is the best of that bunch and a car I will keep longer than 9mths (Previous record held by R32) reasons why......
1) I feel happy my 5 year old is safe in the back
2) I like many others need a reliable car to get to work
3) I don't care what mini owners say it does have the caracter of the old mini.
4) It is bloody quick
The best proof of some of the above is my mates dad is one of Paddy Hopkirks old Mechanics and has driven the cars that won Monty, he has just bought the new GTi Golf but if he didn't need a 5 door he would have had a MINI.....Case Closed
In the past I have had 52 other cars the likes of 1966 Cooper 998, a 1972 mini with 1300GT conversion these where both subjected to many Vizard tuning mods.
Others to list HSR Chevete, Manta GTE, MkI Astra GTE, MkII Golf GTi, MkII Golf GTi 16v, Golf R32, Cooper S Mini and finally a Works Cooper S.
All I can say is the new BMW Mini is the best of that bunch and a car I will keep longer than 9mths (Previous record held by R32) reasons why......
1) I feel happy my 5 year old is safe in the back
2) I like many others need a reliable car to get to work
3) I don't care what mini owners say it does have the caracter of the old mini.
4) It is bloody quick
The best proof of some of the above is my mates dad is one of Paddy Hopkirks old Mechanics and has driven the cars that won Monty, he has just bought the new GTi Golf but if he didn't need a 5 door he would have had a MINI.....Case Closed
there seems to be two entirley seperate arguments raging here....
1) the new mini is a ill handeling, overweight lump of slow junk.
is that why its such a best seller then????????. if it was as bad as some of the posters above are trying to make out, one, never mind millions of them would have struggled to drag its heavy, flawed carcass out of the bmw showroom. i think the massive success (and dont forget the jc challange) show that this just isnt the case.
2) bmw deliberatly bought rover to 'hijack' the mini name.
rubbish. bmw spent nearly ten years trying to make rover a success, they engineered all the s.p.i and m.p.i bits on the minis and probably did more than 'rover' did to keep the mini name going, particually in the last 20 years or so. bmw bailed our of rover because people didnt want to buy the range of cars that they offered, whats the point of pumping millions of pounds into a product that you cannot sell??????. im glad that bm nailed the mini name to the car they produced, it reopened the brand name to many, particually abroad and is in part responsable for the price of the classic minis raising so much. as i often argue, which car would you rather see the name mini (which after all is just a four letter word!!) be glued to, the bmw version, which is a well built, attractive car. or that terrible indian thing that rover are tring to sell now????
please dont think that im a mini hating bm lover, the opposite in fact, ive had 45+ minis, of every shape and size, i dont want a bm mini, i think they are expensive and impratical for what i look for in a everyday car, but im am mature and sensible enough to accept that what bmw did was a sensible business decision and good luck to them!!!!
as a point aside, do the owners of old landrovers and range rovers squabble like this when looking at the new ford owned products???
no, they dont, droning on four years after the car was released just looks petty and childish!!!
my opinions, insult me, disagree, agree im really not bothered!
1) the new mini is a ill handeling, overweight lump of slow junk.
is that why its such a best seller then????????. if it was as bad as some of the posters above are trying to make out, one, never mind millions of them would have struggled to drag its heavy, flawed carcass out of the bmw showroom. i think the massive success (and dont forget the jc challange) show that this just isnt the case.
2) bmw deliberatly bought rover to 'hijack' the mini name.
rubbish. bmw spent nearly ten years trying to make rover a success, they engineered all the s.p.i and m.p.i bits on the minis and probably did more than 'rover' did to keep the mini name going, particually in the last 20 years or so. bmw bailed our of rover because people didnt want to buy the range of cars that they offered, whats the point of pumping millions of pounds into a product that you cannot sell??????. im glad that bm nailed the mini name to the car they produced, it reopened the brand name to many, particually abroad and is in part responsable for the price of the classic minis raising so much. as i often argue, which car would you rather see the name mini (which after all is just a four letter word!!) be glued to, the bmw version, which is a well built, attractive car. or that terrible indian thing that rover are tring to sell now????
please dont think that im a mini hating bm lover, the opposite in fact, ive had 45+ minis, of every shape and size, i dont want a bm mini, i think they are expensive and impratical for what i look for in a everyday car, but im am mature and sensible enough to accept that what bmw did was a sensible business decision and good luck to them!!!!
as a point aside, do the owners of old landrovers and range rovers squabble like this when looking at the new ford owned products???
no, they dont, droning on four years after the car was released just looks petty and childish!!!
my opinions, insult me, disagree, agree im really not bothered!
ive always had the thought that bmw didnt want the mini branded as a 'bmw' in case
1) it all went tits up like the new beatle!!
2) it goes against their advertising campaign of 'ultimate rear wheel drive machines etc', selling it as a 'mini' rather than a 'bmw' mini allows them to continue their 'all bmws are rear wheel drive' adverts
im sure the thousands of BRITISH people employed by the mini factory are glad of the jobs no matter what the sign above the factory says!
1) it all went tits up like the new beatle!!
2) it goes against their advertising campaign of 'ultimate rear wheel drive machines etc', selling it as a 'mini' rather than a 'bmw' mini allows them to continue their 'all bmws are rear wheel drive' adverts
im sure the thousands of BRITISH people employed by the mini factory are glad of the jobs no matter what the sign above the factory says!
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